We didn’t know what we had

[SeaOfBlue]

It takes an incredible lack of perspective to call a Hall of Famer incompetent... and the funniest part is, a moderator liked your post!

He wouldn't be a Hall of Famer based on his Cap Era resume. Totally different game and totally different system.

There are a lot of guys who dominated the game on the ice in the 80's and made the Hall of Fame who likely would not be anywhere near as successful if they played today.

Absolutely no reason that does not apply to a GM like Lou too when the game has changed a lot since his Golden Years.

It was a poor move that handcuffed the Leafs and Dubas was left to deal with it. If Lou was in charge, he already said he would do the exact same thing... Or he would force a Cup contending team to play the corpse of Patrick Marleau in their lineup while taking up 7.5% of their cap space. He wasn't going to get a better deal because other teams are not stupid.

 

[binop7]

The only thing that weirds me out even more is Sakic, arguably one of the better GM's who built an amazing team (although having almost as many struggles getting places as Dubas), was willing to pay the exact same price. The Caps were as well.

Columbus let Foligno pick and he picked us.

I would say it was the first move where Dubas was clearly fleeced. Marner and Marleau were not great, but they were also a result of Lou's stinginess and incompetence. Foligno was the first move that made no sense and had nothing to do with cleaning up Lou's mess, and I actually said it from day 1 when there were a lot of people who hated Dubas applauding it.

I said it from Day 1 as well. Foligno 3 years ago absolutely. Foligno now. No chance. Horrible move. And wasted draft picks for a team that needs a good conveyer belt of young cheap talent.

 

[binop7]

my fav is this notion that "lou wouldnt cave".. like do we have literally 1 example of this? He just gave Barzal, who was a RFA mind you.. in a flat cap era.. 3x7.. And Barzal will be a RFA again and will have a ridiculous QO floor, which we know Lou will then cave and give him an ugly ass contract.. if hes even alive in 3 yrs

3x7 bridge is excellent for barzal. Dubas would have given him 9.5M over 7 years probably.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

3x7 bridge is excellent for barzal. Dubas would have given him 9.5M over 7 years probably.

Bridge deals almost always come back to haunt teams. Barzal has significantly more leverage now unless he flopped through his bridge, which is also not good for the Islanders.

If he doesn't get an offer he likes, he takes his 10 mill QO and is a pending UFA in a year. If he does, it likely overpays him because he took less money earlier on. There are exceptions, but they are far less common than people think.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I said it from Day 1 as well. Foligno 3 years ago absolutely. Foligno now. No chance. Horrible move. And wasted draft picks for a team that needs a good conveyer belt of young cheap talent.

That is what happen when you chase grit and intangibles instead of skill. Skill =/= soft, lazy, and weak. It just means you are good at hockey, which you need to win. It just so happens that very few guys with grit have skill, and those who do are rare and often extremely expensive.

 

[binop7]

Bridge deals almost always come back to haunt teams. Barzal has significantly more leverage now unless he flopped through his bridge, which is also not good for the Islanders.

If he doesn't get an offer he likes, he takes his 10 mill QO and is a pending UFA in a year. If he does, it likely overpays him because he took less money earlier on. There are exceptions, but they are far less common than people think.

They've been able to build a better team and have a chance at the cup. Maybe they can't afford to bring in Kyle Palmieri with Barzal eating 9+M

 

[binop7]

That is what happen when you chase grit and intangibles instead of skill. Skill =/= soft, lazy, and weak. It just means you are good at hockey, which you need to win. It just so happens that very few guys with grit have skill, and those who do are rare and often extremely expensive.

And often break down a lot faster. Same reason they shouldn't spend 5-6M on Hyman

 

[SeaOfBlue]

And often break down a lot faster. Same reason they shouldn't spend 5-6M on Hyman

Still have no idea why this is getting thrown around. It won't happen.

 

[binop7]

Still have no idea why this is getting thrown around. It won't happen.

Just going by what he's reportedly asking for, but of course nothing confirmed. It will suck to lose Hyman, but this is a very important moment, they cannot afford to have a boat anchor contract on this team.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

They've been able to build a better team and have a chance at the cup. Maybe they can't afford to bring in Kyle Palmieri with Barzal eating 9+M

They wouldn't have been able to afford him anyways if Lee wasn't hurt.

If they paid Barzal properly, it likely means they can't have high priced guys like Cizikas, Komarov, Clutterbuck, etc. occupy their bottom 6, or a high priced guy like Pageau would not be there.

Instead, Pulock is a UFA after next year. Barzal will (more likely than not) be overpaid on his next deal. Our stars won't be, if history is any indication.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Just going by what he's reportedly asking for, but of course nothing confirmed. It will suck to lose Hyman, but this is a very important moment, they cannot afford to have a boat anchor contract on this team.

No I totally understand. I am talking about Dreger pushing it like he is getting a kick back on Hyman's next deal or something.

It is completely unfounded even based on pre-pandemic conditions. Flat Cap just makes it asinine.

 

[binop7]

They wouldn't have been able to afford him anyways if Lee wasn't hurt.

If they paid Barzal properly, it likely means they can't have high priced guys like Cizikas, Komarov, Clutterbuck, etc. occupy their bottom 6, or a high priced guy like Pageau would not be there.

Instead, Pulock is a UFA after next year. Barzal will (more likely than not) be overpaid on his next deal. Our stars won't be, if history is any indication.

They're still in a better position in the immediate future. Looking too far down the line and we could have Tavares become a 50pt player, or Matthews walk when he's ufa. I don't think the Islanders have amazing potential to grow, but they're built well to win now and more importantly their young players are getting valuable deep playoff run experience. Something ours have never had.

 

[binop7]

No I totally understand. I am talking about Dreger pushing it like he is getting a kick back on Hyman's next deal or something.

It is completely unfounded even based on pre-pandemic conditions. Flat Cap just makes it asinine.

Some super desperate team like Edmonton could offer him 5.5M. I would imagine they think he can play with McDavid or Draisaitl and they badly need wingers.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Some super desperate team like Edmonton could offer him 5.5M. I would imagine they think he can play with McDavid or Draisaitl and they badly need wingers.

Let them. We can find cheaper alternatives that bring Hyman's value.

He has heart, but you can find heart and skill for less than 5.5 mill. He's a 3rd liner without guys like Matthews/Marner/etc.

 

[binop7]

Let them. We can find cheaper alternatives that bring Hyman's value.

He has heart, but you can find heart and skill for less than 5.5 mill. He's a 3rd liner without guys like Matthews/Marner/etc.

So many times he was setup in game 7. That damn puck is like a brick on his stick sometimes. His game will age horribly.

 

[AllDay28]

Lou > Sakic

 

[Donnie740]

That is what happen when you chase grit and intangibles instead of skill. Skill =/= soft, lazy, and weak. It just means you are good at hockey, which you need to win. It just so happens that very few guys with grit have skill, and those who do are rare and often extremely expensive.

You can’t be serious with such a ridiculous comment. Please tell me you just joking.

Look at the Islanders - - not even remotely close to the skill level Toronto has, yet they’re in the final four. Again. And all that skill in Toronto is one and done. Again.

FFS, the entire team in Vegas is built on grit and aggressive tough play.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

They've been able to build a better team and have a chance at the cup. Maybe they can't afford to bring in Kyle Palmieri with Barzal eating 9+M

Take a look what they have coming up next year. Conceivably every team has a chance at a cup if they make the playoffs. What do you like about the Isles moving forward?? Already 81 mil committed to 23 players, not including Anders Lee, Ladd on the taxi squad, Pelech an RFA, Beauvillier RFA. That figures itself out but standing to lose Cizikas, Palmieri as well. This is their big moment. I can only imagine if Dubas was doing this in this moment the narrative would be Dubas has to win now etc.. Instead with the Islanders it's Lou is such a genius.

 

[Donnie740]

Some super desperate team like Edmonton could offer him 5.5M. I would imagine they think he can play with McDavid or Draisaitl and they badly need wingers.

Some jackass GM is going to make a colossal mistake and cripple his franchise for years to come by giving a mediocre plugger like Hyman $5.5m

Let’s see, who would I rather have on my team - - Hyman at $5.5m or JG Pageau at $5.5m?

 

[Stonehands1990]

1) Babcock was far from the best coach in the league.
2) Shanahan hired Babcock, not Lou. Lou was actually hired after Babcock.
3) Keefe is far from one of the worst coaches in the league. Is he the best coach, or a perfect coach? No. Wasn't on the Marlies either (and they won; obviously in a lesser league). But I think a lot of Leafs fans need a wakeup call because they clearly are ignorant of what a lot of other teams have around the league if they think Keefe is one of the worst coaches (or Dubas is one of the worst GMs).

BARRY TROTZ

Why would you assume Babcock? Lou never hired Babcock

 

[Donnie740]

That’s a great question - - what NHL coach is Keefe better than?

Maybe the interim Don Ducharme? Wait, no - - Keefe just got horribly out coached by Ducharme.

The most recent coach to be fired? Uhhh, no - - Keefe got horribly out coached by him during the play-in round last year.

 

[forecheck]

Have you ever heard of the Peter Principle, because that is what I feel we might be dealing with here in Toronto?

The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a "level of respective incompetence". Employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.

Successfully managing or coaching an OHL junior team, without a salary cap and finding success is much different as Dubas/Keefe are finding out rather painfully at the NHL level. Both young management employees look to be over their heads and out of their comfort zones. Where seasoned GMs, experienced crafty player agents, and successful coaches are taking them to task. IMO

I've often referred to this as Dubas is book-smart but not street-smart and the streets are winning. He talks and speaks in theory what he might have learned in a book, or what the numbers in a spreadsheet might result in, but in the real world things are not always as they seem, and now he's learning through the school of hard knocks instead.

Interesting - Agree 100 %

 

[Arzak]

Take a look what they have coming up next year. Conceivably every team has a chance at a cup if they make the playoffs. What do you like about the Isles moving forward?? Already 81 mil committed to 23 players, not including Anders Lee, Ladd on the taxi squad, Pelech an RFA, Beauvillier RFA. That figures itself out but standing to lose Cizikas, Palmieri as well. This is their big moment. I can only imagine if Dubas was doing this in this moment the narrative would be Dubas has to win now etc.. Instead with the Islanders it's Lou is such a genius.

He got Pamlieri and Zajac for price of Foligno. Imagine if Dubas pulled that off instead.

Leafs losing Foligno this offseason is not even talking point ...Zajac is defensive C capable of playing shut down wing AND he scored an important goal for NY ..

You want to compare Dubas and Lou. One wasted another pick for nothing, the other guy is such a loser he might have a problem getting all the good players under the cap...

 

[centipede2233]

I laugh every time I see dubas lift the Calder cup in great excitement. It’s too bad for him that will be the only cup he lifts as a gm.

 

[sparxx87]

He wouldn't be a Hall of Famer based on his Cap Era resume. Totally different game and totally different system.

There are a lot of guys who dominated the game on the ice in the 80's and made the Hall of Fame who likely would not be anywhere near as successful if they played today.

Absolutely no reason that does not apply to a GM like Lou too when the game has changed a lot since his Golden Years.

It was a poor move that handcuffed the Leafs and Dubas was left to deal with it. If Lou was in charge, he already said he would do the exact same thing... Or he would force a Cup contending team to play the corpse of Patrick Marleau in their lineup while taking up 7.5% of their cap space. He wasn't going to get a better deal because other teams are not stupid.

Ahhh, yes. Perfectly sensible.

Would you discredit an architect for building according to code at the time? Because he built one of the best empires of the last 50 years and you’re trying to discredit by eliminating his best years. Not because of cap, but because there is a life cycle in sports - his Devils weren’t going to last forever. Players age out, and it’s really tough to add new foundational pieces unless you’re at the top of the draft.

Can you please provide a link where Lamoriello says he would have traded Marleau with his first to dump the contract?