We didn’t know what we had

[hullsy47]

Bridge deals almost always come back to haunt teams. Barzal has significantly more leverage now unless he flopped through his bridge, which is also not good for the Islanders.

If he doesn't get an offer he likes, he takes his 10 mill QO and is a pending UFA in a year. If he does, it likely overpays him because he took less money earlier on. There are exceptions, but they are far less common than people think.

A bridge deal for matner was the key. In 3 years if u get embarrassed twice u let him walk and maybe get an 80 80 Pont guy who doest go 0 for 18 in the playoffs

 

[sparxx87]

They wouldn't have been able to afford him anyways if Lee wasn't hurt.

If they paid Barzal properly, it likely means they can't have high priced guys like Cizikas, Komarov, Clutterbuck, etc. occupy their bottom 6, or a high priced guy like Pageau would not be there.

Instead, Pulock is a UFA after next year. Barzal will (more likely than not) be overpaid on his next deal. Our stars won't be, if history is any indication.

Unbelievable how twisted this is.

Would it kill you to put down your calculator and stop looking at the paper transactions? You play to win the game. His team, wins games... You seem to miss while evaluating all these moves relative to the theories in your head, that the most important is winning.

Twisting and turning to avoid giving due credit just makes you sound sour, and with a lack of perspective on what the actual goal is.

 

[sparxx87]

3x7 bridge is excellent for barzal. Dubas would have given him 9.5M over 7 years probably.

No, Dubas would have given him 10M over 5 years, probably.

 

[sparxx87]

Let them. We can find cheaper alternatives that bring Hyman's value.

He has heart, but you can find heart and skill for less than 5.5 mill. He's a 3rd liner without guys like Matthews/Marner/etc.

Who is you?

Lamoriello? Yeah. His guys are like a pack of wild dogs.

Dubas? With his belief in guys like Pierre Engvall? I doubt it.

 

[TMLisSRYinGerman]

Lou inherited a 68 point leaf team.

We had made the playoffs once in ~12 years.

First year we came last and got to draft matthews.

2nd year 100 points and playoffs!

3rd year 105 points (franchise record) and playoffs twice in a row for the first time since 04.

Dubas:
Inherits a 105 point team

First year we lose 5 points and lose in the first round.

2nd year we pace for only 95 points and lose to the jackets in the qualifier

3rd year we get a once in a lifetime division realignment and we lose in embarrassing fashion to the habs.

The results show that with one gm we only progressed. With the other we have stayed the same or regressed.

So which gm was "bad" here?

What about both? I never said Dubas did a good job
Just saying Lou was not good here.

 

[TMLisSRYinGerman]

Essentially, you’re saying Lamoriello is shitty at building teams that lose in the playoffs but good at building teams that win in the playoffs.

No I am saying Lou was not good here. That's all. And he is not in the ice or the coach, so it's not just him why NYI are in a good spot. He does a good job for them! Still no need to cry after him.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Dubas rebuilt a defense in two years that Lou never did here. Lou built a team in NY with heart that Dubas never did here. I see strengths and weaknesses in both GM's and wish we could combine the two.

Ah..but there is the catch. You see, we were supposed to have Dubas learn from Lou for quite a few years in a perfect world in which Dubas wasn't forcing Shanny to give Dubas the job or he walks. I think Dubas had a lot of potential and could have learned a lot about contracts from Lou when it came to big time signings...but nope...he had to rush it because he wanted to be the man right away.

They asked Lou when he first signed with the Leafs about Dubas and becoming the GM. He said "If Dubas is not the GM when I walk away...I failed my job". Do you think he meant only 3 yrs of running the Marlies was enough? Had Dubas seen everything that needed to be done? The biggest quibble I have about Lou was Mark Hunter...he was abject horrific at his job. Now, was that Lou making those drafting decisions in spite of Hunter giving him different advice/suggestion? I don't know...but Dubas seems much better at the draft than Lou/Hunter were.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I agree on most of this as well. One thing I might differ from some is the cause of this being the JT signing, not as much about the Marner deal ($2M extra to Marner isn’t what kills this)

I agree, that’s a really attractive FA, but the one instance I would pass is when I already have a 21 year old franchise centre and 3 important RFA’s coming out.

I don’t want to see Marner traded, but now they’re at a point where that might be the best solution to restructure the team. I think this was all avoidable so it’s pretty disappointing to be here having these conversations today.

I guess the bright side in all of this is the New GM will have some serious assets to trade to get us back on the right track. It's not like we are some team loaded with bad aging contracts that we have to pay to dump. The only issue will be whether or not we want to trade money for money (Eichel) or spread the 11M around properly. At least the new GM will have some options because he won't be tied to the "We can and we will" statement.

I also think we won't be a success until the pressure is off. By that I mean that we will surprise some teams when we are written off likeWashington was a few years ago. They had a better team on paper in their previous versions that kept getting booted in the 2nd round.

 

[Dreakmur]

Lou gave Marleau 18m to be a mentor.. and you guys think this guys a good GM???

Money is irrelevant when you’re supposed to be rebuilding. It’s no coincidence that the young guys went mental as soon as Marleau moved on.

 

[sparxx87]

I guess the bright side in all of this is the New GM will have some serious assets to trade to get us back on the right track. It's not like we are some team loaded with bad aging contracts that we have to pay to dump. The only issue will be whether or not we want to trade money for money (Eichel) or spread the 11M around properly. At least the new GM will have some options because he won't be tied to the "We can and we will" statement.

I also think we won't be a success until the pressure is off. By that I mean that we will surprise some teams when we are written off likeWashington was a few years ago. They had a better team on paper in their previous versions that kept getting booted in the 2nd round.

Yeah, and it’s tough to even run it through in your head with no idea what players could actually be available.

I really hope you’re right about the last part. It would be a shame to waste this era. What I will say is that Washington’s success was buoyed by both Kuznetsov and Carlson coming up after Ovechkin-Backstrom. Being able to land these players in the late first without taking a step back was critical.

I think a similar situation needs to happen in Toronto. Unfortunately, Dubas keeps trading 1st so that’s less likely.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Ultimately, putting a rookie GM in charge for the most important years of a rebuilding team will go down as one of the stupidest mistakes ever made in sports. The writing is on the wall, this team is heading back to floundering for years as a bubble team.

Yup, John Chayka set back the Coyotes for 5yrs with his spread sheet approach and we are going to do the same when we have to blow it up. Hopefully it won't too long of a retool because we can trade guys for real assets.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

They tried to sign him for two years. He wanted three or he wasn’t coming.

Kapanen and Johnsson were good 3rd liners, but those kinds of players are replaceable for less than 3.5 million each, even if you went to UFAs who you’d have to overpay.

I blame Babs for the Marleau fiasco in the end, even though he wasn't the GM. He lobbied for Patty so hard that they had to get what the "future hall of fame" coach wanted. I still would have done 2yrs but I think Marleau wanted that f***ing record so bad that he wanted to be tied to a team so he could play out the string. The fact that Marleau who was a me-first player with no heart passed that mentality on to our core makes me sick. I hate the sight of Patty and I don't care what anyone says...he was a cancer.

Also, why do we look to SJ for our messiahs? They classically under achieved for how many years? We got the only 2 guys in recent memory who had the "C" pulled from their sweaters as....leaders for our team...let that sink in. And that is on both Lou/Dubas...only saving grace for Dubas is the Jumbo deal was peanuts...but he still thought he was worth taking up a #1 PP slot for us..so its not all roses with Duby either.

 

[Bomber0104]

Still have no idea why this is getting thrown around. It won't happen.

Want to bet on that?

 

[Bomber0104]

He wouldn't be a Hall of Famer based on his Cap Era resume. Totally different game and totally different system.

There are a lot of guys who dominated the game on the ice in the 80's and made the Hall of Fame who likely would not be anywhere near as successful if they played today.

Absolutely no reason that does not apply to a GM like Lou too when the game has changed a lot since his Golden Years.

It was a poor move that handcuffed the Leafs and Dubas was left to deal with it. If Lou was in charge, he already said he would do the exact same thing... Or he would force a Cup contending team to play the corpse of Patrick Marleau in their lineup while taking up 7.5% of their cap space. He wasn't going to get a better deal because other teams are not stupid.

Marleau's final year cost Dubas a 1st round pick to get rid of. Note that it was Dubas that traded the 1st. Not the Islanders GM.

11 games of a speculated-to-be-hurt Nick Foligno also cost Dubas a 1st round pick.

I'd like to know why you're honing in on this one cap-issue that Dubas directly caused (Lou indirectly) but not the other that's plainly worse.

The reality is the final year of the Marleau contract only became a problem after Dubas allocated almost half of his salary cap to 4 forwards.

That's on Dubas and no one else.

Sorry.

 

[Cams]

So Lou wouldn't have botched the contracts in Toronto but he botched Marleau here and Anders Lee on the Island. So how would he have figured out the 3 in Toronto who are infinitely more talented and productive??

Because the NYI are in round 3 now and the Leafs aren't. 20/20 Hindsight is the most popular game in this thread. It's like someone seeing Tampa win the cup last year and saying "see I told you so" after the fact.

NYI get eliminated in the next round, which will likely happen, and the NYI under Lou will still have as many cups as the Leafs under Dubas.

 

[Bomber0104]

Dubas hiring Keefe, without so much as a chat with other potential coaches, is yet another example of his blind stubbornness. Everyone else is stupid to question his decisions in his eyes.

Color me shocked that a team that hired a rookie President, rookie GM, and a rookie coach is unfolding before our very eyes.

 

[Cams]

Marleau's final year cost Dubas a 1st round pick to get rid of. Note that it was Dubas that traded the 1st. Not the Islanders GM.

11 games of a speculated-to-be-hurt Nick Foligno also cost Dubas a 1st round pick.

I'd like to know why you're honing in on this one cap-issue that Dubas directly caused (Lou indirectly) but not the other that's plainly worse.

The reality is the final year of the Marleau contract only became a problem after Dubas allocated almost half of his salary cap to 4 forwards.

That's on Dubas and no one else.

Sorry.

When Marleau was signed for 3 years, everyone said he'd only play the first 2. It was on every free agency news broadcast the minute the signing was announced. How is Dubas was responsible for Lou's 3 year contract? Did Dubas kick your dog or something....not sign an autograph for you...?

 

[saltming]

The islanders biggest upgrade was Trots, end story. Yes Lou signed him but that was a no brainer. Trots is the man!

 

[Bomber0104]

When Marleau was signed for 3 years, everyone said he'd only play the first 2. It was on every free agency news broadcast the minute the signing was announced. How is Dubas was responsible for Lou's 3 year contract? Did Dubas kick your dog or something....not sign an autograph for you...?

This is entirely baseless speculation.

So Dubas irresponsibly signs 4 forwards including a UFA for $40 million without realizing he still has contracts on the books?

That's called blowing the budget and spending outside of your means and you don't get to blame the last GM for your own over-spending.

That was the choice Dubas made and is likely going to cost him his job ultimately.

 

[Cams]

Dubas and most of the hockey world as well (and no Lou isn't the oracle and saw it coming) did not see a flat cap/Covid hampering the funds available on each team's cap.

And no, it's not baseless - it was talked about the moment the deal was signed.

 

[notbias]

11 games of a speculated-to-be-hurt Nick Foligno also cost Dubas a 1st round pick.

This is entirely baseless speculation.

I am assuming everyone feels Colorado should fire Sakic too? The team is built for the regular season.

3 years in a row, second-round losers, stars disappear when they are needed, Colorado has some amazing contracts (that were signed before their stars broke out) and were not able to use that valuable extra cap space to build a winner.

 

[sparxx87]

Money is irrelevant when you’re supposed to be rebuilding. It’s no coincidence that the young guys went mental as soon as Marleau moved on.

Yeah, I mean, what would be the value in a guy whose made more money than everyone, still bringing it everyday, buying what the coach is selling.

I can see how some things went wrong but when you consider the personalities on this team, I think Lamoriello had pretty sound logic in targeting a player like this to lead by example.

You’re right, something changed when he left. Hard to put a finger on it, but it’s clear to me as well.

 

[ToneDog]

I am assuming everyone feels Colorado should fire Sakic too? The team is built for the regular season.

3 years in a row, second-round losers, stars disappear when they are needed, Colorado has some amazing contracts (that were signed before their stars broke out) and were not able to use that valuable extra cap space to build a winner.

Avs are learning how to lose before they can win it all. We can't even get past round #1 and are regressing. Now if Sakic paints himself into a corner negotiating new deals, and they regress, then sure fire him.

 

[mydnyte]

View attachment 445564

Lou sucked his last bit with us, and the Isles are going to get trounced by TB once again.

 

[sparxx87]

I am assuming everyone feels Colorado should fire Sakic too? The team is built for the regular season.

3 years in a row, second-round losers, stars disappear when they are needed, Colorado has some amazing contracts (that were signed before their stars broke out) and were not able to use that valuable extra cap space to build a winner.

That wouldn’t be unreasonable.

I hadn’t watched them a lot this year, and every time I did they played very well. Vegas really exposed their lack of size and physicality, especially on their blueline... and Grubauer isn’t a very good goalie.

They’ve shown to be pretenders and he’s had a long tenure. If that’s the end for him, I can see the logic in it.