Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Vegas07]

I sincerely hope they get the boot in the 1st round

I mean theres a difference between 2-3 millions over and nearly 10 millions

Is there much of a difference? Team still sucks. The idea that Stone will come in and fix things is laughable as he has played almost the entire season up until now anyway.

 

[Vegas07]

I am rooting hard for the VGK to miss the playoffs, would make this whole topic a moot point… I don’t think it will happen, cause the rest of the West is sooo weak, but Vegas has been very average after a scorching hot start

Some are saying Cassidy has lost this team. Calgary is selling and still keeps getting closer in the standings

 

[HanSolo]

I don't think it'd cheating but there were also people lamenting the targeting of these injured players last year. Can't have it both ways. If you want to use injured players that way, I'm not really sure you can also moan about opponents taking runs at these 'injured but supposedly healthy enough to play' guys. Both sides are going to do what they have to do to win, if a guy comes back too early and someone takes advantage of that, that's the nature of the game.

I don't think fans being upset and a human being suffering potentially long term bodily injury are on the same level.

 

[canuckslover10]

Gotta make the playoffs before circumventing the cap .

 

[Kaiden Ghoul]

Is there much of a difference? Team still sucks. The idea that Stone will come in and fix things is laughable as he has played almost the entire season up until now anyway.

Well since they suck, they need help

How about some leadership and playoff experience

We will give you Gallagher for a 7th, just ltir his ass untill the playoff for his remaining years , since Vegas "suck"

 

[Vegas07]

Well since they suck, they need help

How about some leadership and playoff experience

We will give you Gallagher for a 7th, just ltir his ass untill the playoff for his remaining years , since Vegas "suck"

5 straight home losses. 7 out of 8 losses. Now 22-23-6 since the hot start. Loses to teams at the bottom of the standings. This team sucks.

 

[Kaiden Ghoul]

5 straight home losses. 7 out of 8 losses. Now 22-23-6 since the hot start. Loses to teams at the bottom of the standings. This team sucks.

Ouch didnt know about that, they may certainly wake up at some point with that much talent.

 

[Vegas07]

Team sucks. Stone goes on LTIR. Team adds players thru trades like other contenders do. Team still sucks.

Team might even miss the playoffs and maybe it will since the players on the team know how to collapse and miss the playoffs (see the 2022 season).

What’s the problem here?

 

[Vegas07]

Ouch didnt know about that, they may certainly wake up at some point with that much talent.

I know I sound like I’m overreacting but this team is not good. Personally I don’t think it’s easy to flip the switch come playoff time either.

Last years Knight team was in 1st pretty much from start to finish and sure there were some struggles during the season but nothing like this (fewer injuries helps too).

This is definitely one of the weakest Knight teams in the brief history of the team.

 

[geebster]

Vegas is still very very likely to make the playoffs and super likely to be a tough out for whoever plays them.

As for the cap circumvention, until a Canadian team does it nothing will ever be done to prevent it. There has to be some common sensical limits on it. Perhaps you can only ice a team in the playoffs that exceeds the cap by a couple million at most? We cant continue to have lineups that significantly exceed others and have a fair competitive environment.

 

[HolyGhost]

The NHL changed the draft lottery rules to try to stop the Oilers from getting another high pick, and that is the only reason they have McDavid.

You can bet as soon as a Canadian team tries to utilize this injury loophole it will be slammed shut immediately.

for the record. The year the Oilers won McDavid, they had no problem with additional changes and it was Buffalo who said they would block any changes to the format. And if you look at all the posters complaining about what the Knights are doing? Most fan bases are covered in the complaints. You might have them on block or something

If Stone plays in game 1 or 2? Then I can see a lot more people complaining.

 

[Spawn]

Past 5 seasons Stone's highest GP is 65, second highest is this season at 56.

Besides... How would a lacerated spleen be able to be faked do you think?

The issue isn’t a faked injury. It’s the convenience of not being healthy enough to play game 82 and allowing the team to remain cap compliant after loading up at the deadline but then having the incredible timing of being ready to go a handful of days later in round 1.

And then at the same time you have the league last deadline coming out and saying if you try and trade for a player on LTIR and stash him there until the playoffs they’ll consider that cap circumvention. It’s the exact same thing that Vegas and Tampa have done repeatedly. They just stash their own players there and acquire other players in the meantime.

 

[HolyGhost]

The issue isn’t a faked injury. It’s the convenience of not being healthy enough to play game 82 and allowing the team to remain cap compliant after loading up at the deadline but then having the incredible timing of being ready to go a handful of days later in round 1.

And then at the same time you have the league last deadline coming out and saying if you try and trade for a player on LTIR and stash him there until the playoffs they’ll consider that cap circumvention. It’s the exact same thing that Vegas and Tampa have done repeatedly. They just stash their own players there and acquire other players in the meantime.

and his return date lines up perfectly with the playoffs

 

[theslatcher]

The issue isn’t a faked injury. It’s the convenience of not being healthy enough to play game 82 and allowing the team to remain cap compliant after loading up at the deadline but then having the incredible timing of being ready to go a handful of days later in round 1.

And then at the same time you have the league last deadline coming out and saying if you try and trade for a player on LTIR and stash him there until the playoffs they’ll consider that cap circumvention. It’s the exact same thing that Vegas and Tampa have done repeatedly. They just stash their own players there and acquire other players in the meantime.

You have to justify the recovery time to the league.

 

[North Cole]

I don't think fans being upset and a human being suffering potentially long term bodily injury are on the same level.

I don't think a player at higher risk of long term bodily injury should be playing. If they are then they accept those risks.

 

[Golden_Jet]

And, the CBA is going to expire in 3 1/2 months, and the owners are looking at the billion dollars they've overpaid the players and haven't gotten back, and ... they want their money back. All of it. And if the players are going to keep it, the owners want tons of flesh out of the players in CBA talks for it.

Expires after 25/26 season.
So 2 years and 3 1/2 months.

 

[tfwnogf]

4 losses in a row, wouldn't it be funny if they miss the playoffs. They could have used Mark Pebble but shucks he just had to get injured again.

 

[Accelleratii]

Tampa did it and it worked out, Vegas did it and it worked out...and not for nothing, technically they're not breaking any rules.

 

[v00d00daddy]

Tampa did it and it worked out, Vegas did it and it worked out...and not for nothing, technically they're not breaking any rules.

Yup.

And if the VGK’s 1st round opponent go out of their way to cleanly drill Stone every chance they get because his team put him on the ltir to use a cap loophole to their advantage and he suffers a season/career ending injury no rule will be broken there either.

And just like those of us complaining that LGK and TB have been making shitty, yet legal, moves to their advantage…there will be people complaining about those clean hits that have ulterior motives.

I hope the loopholes fly in the playoffs lol

 

[Ted Hoffman]

As for the cap circumvention, until a Canadian team does it nothing will ever be done to prevent it.

OMG, stop it. There is no anti-Canadian bias in the league, the league is not intentionally letting American-based teams do whatever at the expense of every team in Canada, anything that happens that is "bad" for a team in Canada or "good" for a team in the United States is not somehow "absolute, irrefutable proof" of some grand conspiracy by Gary Bettman and the rest of the Board of Governors - including the 7 members of the Board of Governors representing Canadian teams - to f*** over Canadian-based NHL teams at every chance.

JFC, stop it already.

There has to be some common sensical limits on it. Perhaps you can only ice a team in the playoffs that exceeds the cap by a couple million at most?

"GDI, teams shouldn't be able to cheat at all!"

Also: "Well, a little bit of cheating is OK."

Also: "If this hurts teams who didn't do anything wrong and built a roster properly, within the rules, ... you know what, f*** them too. We gotta protect the public!"

We cant continue to have lineups that significantly exceed others and have a fair competitive environment.

Life isn't fair.

 

[Curufinwe]

Vegas about to miss playoffs again?

Just need one of Calgary, St Louis or Seattle to go on a tear and catch them for the last WC spot.

As for the cap circumvention, until a Canadian team does it nothing will ever be done to prevent it.

Toronto has $15,562,500 on LTIR.

4 losses in a row, wouldn't it be funny if they miss the playoffs. They could have used Mark Pebble but shucks he just had to get injured again.

Wow, you figured it out. Losing your best player to a lacerated injured spleen isn't actually a good thing.

 

[TheBeard]

Toronto has $15,562,500 on LTIR.

Putting players on LTIR isn’t the circumvention. You know this. Find one player on their LtIR expected back for playoffs and I’ll concede.

 

[geebster]

OMG, stop it. There is no anti-Canadian bias in the league, the league is not intentionally letting American-based teams do whatever at the expense of every team in Canada, anything that happens that is "bad" for a team in Canada or "good" for a team in the United States is not somehow "absolute, irrefutable proof" of some grand conspiracy by Gary Bettman and the rest of the Board of Governors - including the 7 members of the Board of Governors representing Canadian teams - to f*** over Canadian-based NHL teams at every chance.

JFC, stop it already.


"GDI, teams shouldn't be able to cheat at all!"

Also: "Well, a little bit of cheating is OK."

Also: "If this hurts teams who didn't do anything wrong and built a roster properly, within the rules, ... you know what, f*** them too. We gotta protect the public!"


Life isn't fair.

Yeah uhh you read way too much into a single sentence. Since you decided to expound on what you think I believe I'll explain what I meant.

I don't believe there's an anti Canadian bias from the league, especially not on matters like this. What I do believe is that because of how much things get overblown by Canadian media (which is the vast majority of hockey media) there's far more likely to be enough negative PR for them to make a rule change than if a non original 6 US team did so. Ultimately it's a system that is abusable but it's abuse that all teams have access to if they get lucky with injury timing. If Toronto did it with one of their top 4 then was more than 10 mil over the cap in the playoffs it would be a huge talking point and the league would be more likely to address it.

As for me advocating for there to be a couple million dollar cap raise for the playoffs, that's simply so teams aren't stuck in weird callup situations or icing incomplete lineups. There's other problems with the cap existing in the playoffs that also would need to be factored in as well.

As for the aw shucks life is unfair so abusing the rules cant be addressed argument you posed...surely you wouldn't apply that to real world issues as well. You absolutely can guess which obvious examples would show the inherent flaw in that thinking. In a sports competition, inequality of outcome is what we are celebrating and rooting for, but we want that to happen on the ice more than from systemic restraints that some teams just aren't subject to because they had injuries at the TDL.

If one team is limited to 10 million dollars to ice a team and another has 100 million surely thatd be unfair correct? So somewhere between there and what we have in season there exists a point where a line can be drawn to allow for both enough wiggle room to ice a full lineup if injuries happen but not enough to carry additional top 10 players in the league. I could be persuaded the most equitable line is simply to have an on ice cap similar to the one in season without any additional wiggle room.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Yeah uhh you read way too much into a single sentence. Since you decided to expound on what you think I believe I'll explain what I meant.

I don't believe there's an anti Canadian bias from the league, especially not on matters like this. What I do believe is that because of how much things get overblown by Canadian media (which is the vast majority of hockey media) there's far more likely to be enough negative PR for them to make a rule change than if a non original 6 US team did so. Ultimately it's a system that is abusable but it's abuse that all teams have access to if they get lucky with injury timing. If Toronto did it with one of their top 4 then was more than 10 mil over the cap in the playoffs it would be a huge talking point and the league would be more likely to address it.

I think I maybe get where you're trying to go here. That said, that last sentence is still conjecture.

As for me advocating for there to be a couple million dollar cap raise for the playoffs, that's simply so teams aren't stuck in weird callup situations or icing incomplete lineups. There's other problems with the cap existing in the playoffs that also would need to be factored in as well.

Right, which is exactly the point I've been trying to make in 313 different threads where people try to offer "solutions" for having the cap apply in the playoffs. There's a lot of things that need to be factored in, simply saying the cap should apply in the playoffs is a lot like saying everyone should be rich. Great utopian idea, really lacking on details, really detached from reality.

As for the aw shucks life is unfair so abusing the rules cant be addressed argument you posed...surely you wouldn't apply that to real world issues as well. You absolutely can guess which obvious examples would show the inherent flaw in that thinking. In a sports competition, inequality of outcome is what we are celebrating and rooting for, but we want that to happen on the ice more than from systemic restraints that some teams just aren't subject to because they had injuries at the TDL.

Every sports competition between two teams includes some inherent unfairness. One team has more talent. One team has more resources. One team has better coaching. One team has a stronger home field advantage. One team ends up winning more games than the other. On and on.

This idea that we can control for all of that to make things "more fair" is laughable. It's even more laughable when it's "we're going to control for things that are out of a team's control." It's like people who do teh analytics and think they can make estimates that are so fantastically precise and accurate, they can eliminate the error term in an estimate entirely.

If one team is limited to 10 million dollars to ice a team and another has 100 million surely thatd be unfair correct?

Is your idea of "fairness" that "every team should have exactly the same amount of money, the same amount of resources, the same everything?" There are limits to how far we can take things to make everything "fair" and the more one tries to make things "fair" the more problems it creates and the more likely it introduces unexpected unfairness.

It would be great if people who go on about "this is unfair" would concede there are limits to "fixing" things to "improve" how things are "fair" between teams. It would be really, really great if people who want to "fix" things to "improve fairness" would concede their ideas would be inherently unfair to other teams who do nothing wrong and acknowledge well, you know what, I don't care - f*** them, they can die and go to hell.

So somewhere between there and what we have in season there exists a point where a line can be drawn to allow for both enough wiggle room to ice a full lineup if injuries happen but not enough to carry additional top 10 players in the league. I could be persuaded the most equitable line is simply to have an on ice cap similar to the one in season without any additional wiggle room.

You cannot just say "well, let's have an on ice cap similar to the one in season without any wiggle room because

1. The cap in-season is calculated daily. Every team has the same length of regular season. Teams in the playoffs don't play the same number of games, aren't in the playoffs the same amount of time.

2. I really need to go bookmark the example where a team permissibly acquires players whose sum of cap hits exceeds the cap, but the team is always cap compliant [and even ends the season with unspent cap dollars] and post it every time this idea gets mentioned, because your idea explicitly tells that team "sorry, you were completely cap compliant at the end of the regular season but it's the playoffs, now you're not - f*** you guys, park players in the press box to now be compliant with a totally different cap." And yet, people seem to think teams and the NHLPA will be perfectly OK with that.

 

[TheFinalWord]

You have to justify the recovery time to the league.

That's easy enough. Player just needs to complain of soreness. No magic scan to determine health.