Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[TheBeard]

There were 22nd in 21-22 with an old team then 27th last year flipped EK65 (in a world where that was really stupid for the Pens) and this year they are 31st and obviously told one of their forwards to be injured right?

Also the second part of the tanking equation is that there were 4 elite talents in the draft last year and the drop-off from celebrini to 2,3,4 isn't that huge long-term and rarely ever is.

Also with the Dman additions you are conveniently skipping over that the team had gotten progressively worse over a number of years and that the FA dman pool wasn't all that big to begin with and here is the kicker, free agents aren't likely to sign with a crappy team at the start of ther rebuild, so why are you taking the team tanked route here without providing an actual real world alternative?

Maybe because like another poster said it's good management and also reality.

Sure, they got worse because it was best for the team. There was no effort to make the team better. That's, in my mind, tanking. The drop-off from Macklin to anyone after him is massive. The team has made two D signings in 2 years - Kyle Burroughs for 1.1 a year and Matt Benning for 1.25 a year. There were much better D men out there that went to rebulding teams like Arizona (Dumba), to Anaheim (Gudas), why? Because they wanted to spend the money. SJ did not. Why? Because the intention was to be as bad as they possibly could. That 0-13 start with a couple of 10 goal games against wasn't by accident.

Also, I believe I was the one who said (or at least agreed with) that it's good management. That was never the issue. The naive belief that tanking doesn't exist though, that's simply untrue.

 

[wetcoast]

It’s simple really, teams need be cap compliant the day before playoffs start.

Which is strange since in the playoffs players don't get their salary right?

Basically what you want to do is apply a players full cap hit including the time he was injured which to say mmm how can I put this diplomatically...pretty asinine.

 

[Mike C]

Ding ding ding.

Its like... recovery manipulation? Instead of playing through injuries, the team rests its best player?

Its kind of only an advantage because of the macho mentality around the league. I bet theres many players with injuries thay could get them on IR, but play through it.

It surprises me to a point that some fans are surprised. These players play through insane stuff in the playoffs... surely its expected that a player in recovery would precipitate his return when it coincides with the playoffs?

in the 70s and 80s recovery manipulation in some sports was called greenies in the coffee

as we moved forward in years it was called a visit to BALCO

the more things change fellas.....

 

[TheBeard]

they were a non playoff team with all of the guys you mentioned already before we break down each player.

Also to note the black Hawks traded for Seth Jones before the 21-22 season which would be really stupid for a team supposedly tanking right?

But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story or conspiracy?

They traded for Jones (along with bringing in Fleury and Johnson) with the naive idea of going for it. It backfired horribly so they went scorched earth fire sale. There's a difference between just not being a non-playoff team and doing everything in your power to be the worst possible version of yourself. This is completely off-topic though, but I thought Lazarus summed up what they did rather nicely. Lazerus: Blackhawks' blatant tank-job is bold but utterly contemptible

Which is strange since in the playoffs players don't get their salary right?

Basically what you want to do is apply a players full cap hit including the time he was injured which to say mmm how can I put this diplomatically...pretty asinine.

Ok, then let everyone do what they want. Frankly, this debate isn't changing anyone's opinions anyways.

 

[wetcoast]

I try hard to get people to think about what they're really asking for, lest they make ill-informed decisions that create real problems that now need real solutions where a more-informed decision up front would have solved the problem and avoided all the other shit that follows at considerable cost to everyone. Also known as: my day job.

No, instead I get weak-minded shit like

That has about 2 seconds of thought, lacks any details whatsoever, can get picked apart with about 5 seconds of effort, and yet gets repeated like we're listening to the complete anthology of Rebecca Black's Greatest Hit in an effort to get it into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Man I made the mistake of looking her up.

Since you ruined my day I will spread the misery around like this thread.

 

[TheBeard]

Man I made the mistake of looking her up.

Since you ruined my day I will spread the misery around like this thread.

What's crazy about her is she was the butt of the internet for a long time after this, yet she's managed to actually carve out a real music career for herself. Kudos to her.

 

[wetcoast]

Sure, they got worse because it was best for the team. There was no effort to make the team better. That's, in my mind, tanking. The drop-off from Macklin to anyone after him is massive. The team has made two D signings in 2 years - Kyle Burroughs for 1.1 a year and Matt Benning for 1.25 a year. There were much better D men out there that went to rebulding teams like Arizona (Dumba), to Anaheim (Gudas), why? Because they wanted to spend the money. SJ did not. Why? Because the intention was to be as bad as they possibly could. That 0-13 start with a couple of 10 goal games against wasn't by accident.

Sure with Dumba or Gudas San Jose would be where exactly 31st place?

TY for making my point though.

Also, I believe I was the one who said (or at least agreed with) that it's good management. That was never the issue. The naive belief that tanking doesn't exist though, that's simply untrue.

The point is that in order for tanking you need to see an obvious plan to be the worst team and there has to be a reasonable option that they could have been better.

You are missing on both fronts here.

 

[TheBeard]

Sure with Dumba or Gudas San Jose would be where exactly 31st place?

TY for making my point though.

I think it's both our points. Lol. The team wasn't interested in getting better by getting decent options in FA, but they were certainly interested in getting worse by scraping the bottom of the barrel. You're simply not putting out that defense and then signing MacKenzie Blackwood with the intention of being anything but dead last.

 

[wetcoast]

I think it's both our points. Lol. The team wasn't interested in getting better by getting decent options in FA, but they were certainly interested in getting worse by scraping the bottom of the barrel. You're simply not putting out that defense and then signing MacKenzie Blackwood with the intention of being anything but dead last.

The list of FA's that you have brought up in Dumba and Gudas sort of suggests that there isn't an alternative path thus tanking isn't a thing but being bad is.

No doubt we are going to have an offseason thread about how "unfair " it is and yet another solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist in the draft.

 

[Three On Zero]

Vegas still has more circumvention…. I mean space, who else are they going to get? Toffoli?

 

[TheBeard]

The list of FA's that you have brought up in Dumba and Gudas sort of suggests that there isn't an alternative path thus tanking isn't a thing but being bad is.

No doubt we are going to have an offseason thread about how "unfair " it is and yet another solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist in the draft.

I just picked two random guys that went to bad teams is all.

Also, you may be the only person that doesn't think what Chicago did prior to Bedard was tanking. Tanking exists. It always has. The Colts did it in football the year Andrew Luck came out. Teams in the NBA do it all the time (The NBA flat-out called out the Chicago Bulls for tanking). There's a variety of different ways you can tank, but it's very easy to also call it anything but.

Potato potahto really. Is this really worth arguing over?

 

[PensandCaps]

Shouldn't even be a Cap. So I'm cool with it. More than one team does it, just we don't pay attention to the ones that lose.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Shouldn't even be a Cap. So I'm cool with it. More than one team does it, just we don't pay attention to the ones that lose.

Except for this "strategy" to work it involves perfectly timed key injuries.

That just makes the cap seem stupider.

 

[wetcoast]

I just picked two random guys that went to bad teams is all.

Also, you may be the only person that doesn't think what Chicago did prior to Bedard was tanking. Tanking exists. It always has. The Colts did it in football the year Andrew Luck came out. Teams in the NBA do it all the time (The NBA flat-out called out the Chicago Bulls for tanking). There's a variety of different ways you can tank, but it's very easy to also call it anything but.

Potato potahto really. Is this really worth arguing over?

In the NBA it's basically a 5man team with some support so that doesn't translate to hockey and ya I'm sick of dumb threads like circumvention, like there is a rule being broken and the tanking BS which is never supported reasonably.

Spoiler most of the Dmen who make it to UFA aren't very good and wouldn't change anything for a crappy team in need of a rebuild.

People just like conspiracies even if they don't make any sense which is an oxymoron but seems fitting eh.

 

[stator]

Hard to say if he’s ready for playoffs, ruptured spleen is what a 2/3 month recovery. It is a dangerous injury to get.

You would need to know the grade level before making that call. 2 to 3 months is typically a higher grade. Stone could have a 0.5 grade and enjoying a vacation.

Actually there is no 0.5 grade, but grades 1 to 2 are not severe by any means.

If it's ruptured as you state, I cannot see Stone not having a hospital stay.

 

[Rubi]

So I'm hearing Martinez has a broken bone in his foot?
That should take about 6 wks to heal?

 

[Finnflash]

The only way this is an issue is if the players are faking an injury plain and simple. If they are not it’s in the rules.

It is suspicious for sure but if no one is investigating the legitimacy of the injuries then it’s a blind eye on the league.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

The only way this is an issue is if the players are faking an injury plain and simple. If they are not it’s in the rules.

It is suspicious for sure but if no one is investigating the legitimacy of the injuries then it’s a blind eye on the league.

The League does indeed monitor and has its own independent doctor(s) who monitor test reports and make their own examinations as they deem necessary. For all that's been said on HFBoards, in reality it would be pretty difficult to fake an injury, although whether a player has sufficiently rehabilitated enough to be able to play is a harder call such as with Kuch's circumstances.

But folks are just nutty if they think that any player can lay off for a long period and come back and be 100% on day one as it usually takes a couple of weeks just to get their legs and lungs back, much less their timing and chemistry with other players.

 

[joepeps]

1. In the playoffs? Yes, that's what happens now. In the regular season? Never happening; the league is never getting rid of the cap; if for some bizarre reason it did, it's NEVER giving up linkage to HRR and players are never going to go for an uncapped system where there's still linkage to HRR because they would get utterly f***ed on escrow.

2. This could read "someone should do something" and it would be just as much of a throwaway, do-nothing statement.

3. This means nothing without defining what "cap compliant" means - which, that's going to have to allow situations like I describe above, earlier in the thread, and in at least 19 other places (and counting).

you watching the Boston Toronto game?

Talk about Leaf bias....

maybe watch and see....

 

[snag]

You would need to know the grade level before making that call. 2 to 3 months is typically a higher grade. Stone could have a 0.5 grade and enjoying a vacation.

Actually there is no 0.5 grade, but grades 1 to 2 are not severe by any means.

If it's ruptured as you state, I cannot see Stone not having a hospital stay.

BAH!!! Take the damn thing out and half the recovery time (actually in as little as a couple weeks). You don't "need" it. The liver can take up lots of the responsibilities lol

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Except for this "strategy" to work it involves perfectly timed key injuries.

That just makes the cap seem stupider.

I agree, we should get rid of the cap starting in '24-25.

Of course, linkage to HRR is still a thing, but who cares. There's no cap, teams can spend whatever they want - and spend, they will.

It would only mean players suddenly face escrow on the order of 25%, but because of escrow caps they wanted they only pay 6% which means the rest becomes escrow debt they owe the owners.

And the next year, they'd probably also be facing escrow on the order of 25% but because of escrow caps they wanted they only pay 6% and everything else becomes more escrow debt.

And now it's June 30, 2026 and the players wake up and realize they're staring at an escrow debt to the tune of over $1 billion because they got contracted for a f***ing shitload of money, but the 50/50 split point still existed and every dollar over that they got paid - and they got paid a whole lot of dollars over that - became a dollar they had to pay back to the owner. And the escrow caps they demanded came back to bite them in the ass and leave them owing a f***ing shitload of money to the owners.

And, the CBA is going to expire in 3 1/2 months, and the owners are looking at the billion dollars they've overpaid the players and haven't gotten back, and ... they want their money back. All of it. And if the players are going to keep it, the owners want tons of flesh out of the players in CBA talks for it.

It's OK, though. We got rid of the cap. Everything was solved then and there.

 

[Peltz]

Man I made the mistake of looking her up.

Since you ruined my day I will spread the misery around like this thread.

 

[CaptainShark]

I am rooting hard for the VGK to miss the playoffs, would make this whole topic a moot point… I don’t think it will happen, cause the rest of the West is sooo weak, but Vegas has been very average after a scorching hot start.

 

[hangman005]

I am rooting hard for the VGK to miss the playoffs, would make this whole topic a moot point… I don’t think it will happen, cause the rest of the West is sooo weak, but Vegas has been very average after a scorching hot start.

Very average seems like a massive overstatement

 

[Kaiden Ghoul]

I sincerely hope they get the boot in the 1st round

I mean theres a difference between 2-3 millions over and nearly 10 millions