Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Mike C]

Is he injured?

We're waiting for the company doctor to leave his house

 

[Mike C]

Then just remove the salary cap.

Yeah!! What he said

While you're at it remove the stupid keep the puck moving along the boards rule and blow the GD whistle. Then, ditch the firing the puck into the crowd penalty, Let the tired players change after icings and for F sake, get rid of the gimmick OT nonsense

 

[TheBeard]

Let me double-check the question here:

I'm only a math major, I only do math for a living, but by my count - and maybe someone else can double-check this for me:


Would at least be a "single time they had any sort of real injury in any of their playoff runs."

So, you're welcome. Now you can think of one. If that's not sufficient for you, please state how many injuries you need to have evidence of and what kind of proof [if any] you need to substantiate those injuries so that anyone else attempting to respond know exactly what threshold they're expected to meet, lest you shift the goalposts some more.

That will not be, me, though, because ... and I'll say it again:

fair enough. You found someone. You found the guy who was on the verge of getting benched after getting shelled for 9 goals in two games and then another early in game 3 before leaving the ice. I was wrong.

 

[PaulD]

Ding ding ding.

Its like... recovery manipulation? Instead of playing through injuries, the team rests its best player?

Its kind of only an advantage because of the macho mentality around the league. I bet theres many players with injuries thay could get them on IR, but play through it.

It surprises me to a point that some fans are surprised. These players play through insane stuff in the playoffs... surely its expected that a player in recovery would precipitate his return when it coincides with the playoffs?

I hear Matt Murray is fine to play. But for cap convenience Leafs are not saying so.
Good move by them. Good move by Vegas. Was a good move when Lightening did it with Kucherov.
" If ya ain't cheating, ya ain't trying"

 

[Curufinwe]

Uhhhh.... This has 100% happened lol. And has nothing to do with Canada vs. US. Players have retired early and taken jobs to help their teams out.

Can you list them?

I know there are tons of guys who were too injured to play and didn't retire because it would have cost them millions. Pronger, Weber, Price, Horton, Hossa, Seabrook, Voracek, Muzzin, Lehner, etc.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I really want to take all the people who swear to God they know about all this rampant cheating that goes on, that they swear to God they can prove via conjecture and unproven hypotheses, who swear to God they know how to fix, and put them in a room with one simple instruction - "come up with a rule that fixes this so it doesn't happen again" - and see how many minutes it takes before they start screaming at each other over how stupid someone else's idea is and how their solution is better.

I'm betting it doesn't take even 10 minutes. I'm not even going to suggest "... and when they're done, we throw a couple simple examples at it and see how badly that solution fails" because (1) I and others have tried this about 19,000,000,008,017 times in the past and they don't get it, and (2) I'd probably have better luck asking them to explain the movement of a quark in a multidimensional system where time across any system is not constant and moves in a random fashion that is generally lognormally distributed but has nonconstant variance.

 

[TheBeard]

I really want to take all the people who swear to God they know about all this rampant cheating that goes on, that they swear to God they can prove via conjecture and unproven hypotheses, who swear to God they know how to fix, and put them in a room with one simple instruction - "come up with a rule that fixes this so it doesn't happen again" - and see how many minutes it takes before they start screaming at each other over how stupid someone else's idea is and how their solution is better.

I'm betting it doesn't take even 10 minutes. I'm not even going to suggest "... and when they're done, we throw a couple simple examples at it and see how badly that solution fails" because (1) I and others have tried this about 19,000,000,008,017 times in the past and they don't get it, and (2) I'd probably have better luck asking them to explain the movement of a quark in a multidimensional system where time across any system is not constant and moves in a random fashion that is generally lognormally distributed but has nonconstant variance.

It’s simple really, teams need be cap compliant the day before playoffs start.

 

[snag]

I really want to take all the people who swear to God they know about all this rampant cheating that goes on, that they swear to God they can prove via conjecture and unproven hypotheses, who swear to God they know how to fix, and put them in a room with one simple instruction - "come up with a rule that fixes this so it doesn't happen again" - and see how many minutes it takes before they start screaming at each other over how stupid someone else's idea is and how their solution is better.

I'm betting it doesn't take even 10 minutes. I'm not even going to suggest "... and when they're done, we throw a couple simple examples at it and see how badly that solution fails" because (1) I and others have tried this about 19,000,000,008,017 times in the past and they don't get it, and (2) I'd probably have better luck asking them to explain the movement of a quark in a multidimensional system where time across any system is not constant and moves in a random fashion that is generally lognormally distributed but has nonconstant variance.

You sure try hard to defend it. rofl

 

[Ted Hoffman]

fair enough. You found someone. You found the guy who was on the verge of getting benched after getting shelled for 9 goals in two games and then another early in game 3 before leaving the ice. I was wrong.

Right, and that's really the explanation isn't it. He wasn't REALLY hurt, Vegas just had him fake being hurt so he could avoid the ignominy of being yanked after giving up 9 goals in 2 games and another early in Game 3.

Forget about the fact that he was facing an Oilers team with McDavid and Draisaitl who were going off for a combined 21-17-38 in the playoffs, with Evan Bouchard putting up 4-13-17 behind them. Forget about Draisaitl going off for 4 goals in the 1st game, Draisaitl and McDavid combining for 4 goals in the 2nd game, and Vegas being tied at 1 in the 3rd game when he "got hurt." No, Adin Hill was a piece of shit scrub goalie getting lit up by the Minooka Junior U9 "C" team, and any mook with a half of ounce of talent would have been a real goalie and stopped the McDrai show cold, at most allowing a goal throughout the entire series.

 

[TheBeard]

Right, and that's really the explanation isn't it. He wasn't REALLY hurt, Vegas just had him fake being hurt so he could avoid the ignominy of being yanked after giving up 9 goals in 2 games and another early in Game 3.

Forget about the fact that he was facing an Oilers team with McDavid and Draisaitl who were going off for a combined 21-17-38 in the playoffs, with Evan Bouchard putting up 4-13-17 behind them. Forget about Draisaitl going off for 4 goals in the 1st game, Draisaitl and McDavid combining for 4 goals in the 2nd game, and Vegas being tied at 1 in the 3rd game when he "got hurt." No, Adin Hill was a piece of shit scrub goalie getting lit up by the Minooka Junior U9 "C" team, and any mook with a half of ounce of talent would have been a real goalie and stopped the McDrai show cold, at most allowing a goal throughout the entire series.

Laurent was hurt. No question. My point is Vegas seems to struggle year in and year out with major injuries during the regular season(s) yet come playoff time they seem to come out year in and year out relatively unscathed.

Anyways, this has been a fun debate even if we don’t see eye to eye on it. Let’s move on, shall we?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

You sure try hard to defend it. rofl

I try hard to get people to think about what they're really asking for, lest they make ill-informed decisions that create real problems that now need real solutions where a more-informed decision up front would have solved the problem and avoided all the other shit that follows at considerable cost to everyone. Also known as: my day job.

No, instead I get weak-minded shit like

It’s simple really, teams need be cap compliant the day before playoffs start.

That has about 2 seconds of thought, lacks any details whatsoever, can get picked apart with about 5 seconds of effort, and yet gets repeated like we're listening to the complete anthology of Rebecca Black's Greatest Hit in an effort to get it into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

 

[PaulD]

Loop holes, circumventing, cutting corners, cheating , financial wizardry, manipulative accounting ......etc. Not like it was invented by nhl GMs. Goes on in business across the board.
The first time we heard it being done blatantly in NHL was with Geoffrey Lupul and the leafs. He openly admitted he was healthy enought to play , then got gagged.
Or should we say Geoffrey Loop-hole?

 

[TheBeard]

That has about 2 seconds of thought, lacks any details whatsoever, can get picked apart with about 5 seconds of effort, and yet gets repeated like we're listening to the complete anthology of Rebecca Black's Greatest Hit in an effort to get it into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

The point is there can be a groundwork laid down if the NHL really wanted to address this. The owners obviously don’t care so it’s moot.

I try hard to get people to think about what they're really asking for,

Transparency.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Loop holes, circumventing, cutting corners, cheating , financial wizardry, manipulative accounting ......etc. Not like it was invented by nhl GMs. Goes on in business across the board.
The first time we heard it being done blatantly in NHL was with Geoffrey Lupul and the leafs. He openly admitted he was healthy enought to play , then got gagged.
Or should we say Geoffrey Loop-hole?

Joffrey Lupul fails league-mandated second physical, heads to LTIR

The NHL's controversy of the summer has finally come to a head. Jof...

theleafsnation.com

 

[RestlessYoungZero]

Not hard to find, none of these are Vegas fans

Seems you conveniently left out the username on those screenshots.

 

[Three On Zero]

Seems you conveniently left out the username on those screenshots.

Because that’s site rules? Go read the first few pages of the trade and you’ll see all the names

 

[RestlessYoungZero]

Actually. More variety of teams have won the cup pre salary cap than most cap for 20 year span...

So it's fake parity... The same teams are winning the cup lol

Disagree hard. If there was no cap then small market teams like Winnipeg will never be competitive. At least with a cap there's a small chance we could put it together.

I can't stand the example others are using of soccer not having a cap and how the small market teams are just development teams to feed the big markets. Yea, that sounds like such a wonderful team to follow for local fans. Never having a chance to win it all. If the NHL follows that route I can't see how many fans in small markets would stick it out. I'm not shelling out thousands on season tickets to be a glorified farm team for the big market teams.

 

[joepeps]

Disagree hard. If there was no cap then small market teams like Winnipeg will never be competitive. At least with a cap there's a small chance we could put it together.

I can't stand the example others are using of soccer not having a cap and how the small market teams are just development teams to feed the big markets. Yea, that sounds like such a wonderful team to follow for local fans. Never having a chance to win it all. If the NHL follows that route I can't see how many fans in small markets would stick it out. I'm not shelling out thousands on season tickets to be a glorified farm team for the big market teams.

Looks like the Peg is going to leave again... Ur cap isn't helping is it?

Imagine if you didn't have to spend 70 mil to get to the floor and could spend 30 40 and be profitable and keep a team

 

[RestlessYoungZero]

Looks like the Peg is going to leave again... Ur cap isn't helping is it?

Imagine if you didn't have to spend 70 mil to get to the floor and could spend 30 40 and be profitable and keep a team

The Jets have been a cap team (or close to it) for the last few years. Jets aren't moving anytime soon.

Maybe if you read news outside your Toronto bubble you'd know that.

 

[TheBeard]

Looks like the Peg is going to leave again... Ur cap isn't helping is it?

Imagine if you didn't have to spend 70 mil to get to the floor and could spend 30 40 and be profitable and keep a team

I can’t believe people are throwing these sort of suggestions out like it would be a good thing. As a montrealer and fan of the expos, this is what completely turned me off baseball.

 

[joepeps]

The Jets have been a cap team (or close to it) for the last few years. Jets aren't moving anytime soon.

Maybe if you read news outside your Toronto bubble you'd know that.

I hope you don't...

 

[wetcoast]

And many seem to think Front Offices don't have long term visions in terms of drafting high and building a future.

Sure because sometimes the long term vision is the way to go when your captain Toews has to retire after gutting it out a couple of years because of injuries and finishing so high and not having first round draft picks pan out like Dach who had a horrible stat line the season he was traded and the Black Hawks missed the playoffs easily with Dach.

I'm legit shocked if you truly don't think the Hawks purposely tanked to get Bedard.

they were a non playoff team with all of the guys you mentioned already before we break down each player.

Also to note the black Hawks traded for Seth Jones before the 21-22 season which would be really stupid for a team supposedly tanking right?

But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story or conspiracy?

They literally traded away anyone with talent - from Debrincat and Dach to Strobe to McCabe. They probably would have traded Kane earlier but he had that pesky NMC and wasn't ready to go. Out of all the goalies they could have put in nets, they opted to go with Petr Mrazek and Alec Stalock.

Like I already said they went from bad to worse with Debrincat so why not move him after trading for Jones for the 21-22 season and they did much worse than the year before with not enough prospects to push for the team actually getting better when Toews was winding down?

There is a good breakdown here why they moved on him.

Blackhawks: Revisiting the Alex DeBrincat Trade

The Chicago Blackhawks are slowly starting to look like they made a smart call by moving on from Alex DeBrincat.

thehockeywriters.com

They got Kevin Korchinski with the 7thth pick and Paul Ludwinski with the 2nd rounder who are both pretty good prospects for where they were drafted.

Plus they got a 4th rounder for this draft year.

Heck even Ottawa, a much better team than the black Hawks didn't make the playoffs with Debrincat and they traded him after 1 year as well.

As for Strome well he left via free agency so not even sure why you are brining him up in any attempt to say that the Black Hawks were tanking.

Heck Strome's replacement in Max Domi was probably a better player anyways.

Dach after showing promise but being injured really just didn't look good at all in 21-22 so getting a 1st and 3rd for him in Nazar and Hayes is probably going to work out all right for them.

Dach can't seem to stay healthy anyways.

As for goalies what are they supposed to do force goalies to sign there?

They were already 27th in the league in 21-22 with a real pipeline problem coming up and their best players aging.

Making the best of it and trading for draft picks to restock their pipeline was the prudent thing to do both short term and long term.

 

[snag]

Because that’s site rules? Go read the first few pages of the trade and you’ll see all the names

Anarchy!!!!

I see no stinking rules lol
Anyone else missing them?

 

[wetcoast]

I'm not going to spend all night long on this - maybe someone else will indulge you - but ... this one seems particularly memorable, and I would call it a "real injury" though YMMV:

Reports: Golden Knights goalie Brossoit undergoing testing for injury

There was no update on Laurent Brossoit on Tuesday, after the Vegas Golden Knights goalie had to be helped off the ice in Monday's Game 3 victory over Edmonton.

www.sportsnet.ca

Obviously Brossoit had a brainfart and thought it was the trade deadline and did that in order for Vegas to circumvent the salary cap but sometimes guys screw up a well laid plan eh?

Vegas had a rough go with injuries this year. Theodore lost like 30 games, Stone's gonna miss about 30, Eichel missed about 15-20, Carrier's been out most of the year, at a point they were down both Thompson and Hill in nets. Dorofeyev is just skating now after being out about 6 weeks.

the thing is that you claimed that vegas had an insane amount of injuries in the year and I provided stats to prove otherwise nice moving the goal posts there.

 

[wetcoast]

That's all you've got? Broissoit?


Tanking is smart management. It doesn't look good for the league but it's a smart move by teams. Sharks are currently doing their own version of it. Bringing in Kyle Burroughs and Jan Ruuta as your marquee additions to an already league-worst defense isn't exactly setting yourself up for success.

There were 22nd in 21-22 with an old team then 27th last year flipped EK65 (in a world where that was really stupid for the Pens) and this year they are 31st and obviously told one of their forwards to be injured right?

Also the second part of the tanking equation is that there were 4 elite talents in the draft last year and the drop-off from celebrini to 2,3,4 isn't that huge long-term and rarely ever is.

Also with the Dman additions you are conveniently skipping over that the team had gotten progressively worse over a number of years and that the FA dman pool wasn't all that big to begin with and here is the kicker, free agents aren't likely to sign with a crappy team at the start of ther rebuild, so why are you taking the team tanked route here without providing an actual real world alternative?

Maybe because like another poster said it's good management and also reality.