Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[wetcoast]

Not really. Fans are proposing changes in which the team is ultimately forced to prioritize a player’s health rather than weaponize it for the sake of team’s success.

IMO it goes to show why a hard cap is pretty dumb

Not really. Fans are proposing changes in which the team is ultimately forced to prioritize a player’s health rather than weaponize it for the sake of team’s success.

Using the term" weaponize it" sounds pretty biased.

And on the flip side when weak teams have injuries we get the usual HF Boards crowd with their tanking conspiracies.

Teams are supposed to do all they can to win, threads like this just go to show 2 things.

1. No one is breaking any rules.

2. A hard cap isn't the best thing for hockey nor hockey fans.

 

[NVious]

Mickey Mouse league fined the Devs' draft picks for a contract that was never actually live. Yet they let this stuff go on every year, which provides an actual advantage. Hilarious.

Don't worry, Vegas fans are assuring us that nobody cares about this sort of stuff and it's stupid to want the league to enforce rules.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Or a team should be required to remove said big name player from LTIR and onto regular IR in order to be cap compliant for playoffs. Otherwise, basically any team in a comfortable position could find and convince a player or two to decide to get that minimally invasive surgery right before the deadline just to make sure they're 100% healthy later on down the road.

This way the team has the option of how to proceed.

I mean the league just needs to raise the cap significantly and cut out cheesy retention deals. There is no reason a team should be able to acquire a player making 25% of their cap hit. And what the flat cap has done to player valuations across the league is disgusting. If you're an average player and you make anything more than 3M you're automatically worthless because any decent team is strapped to the cap. What they should and probably will look into when we get locked out in a couple years is the age/seasons played it takes to become a UFA. Players have too much control now and if the league wants to save Canadian franchises they need to allow them to keep their players. Increase the cap and let everyone get paid more and players won't care about being stuck playing in Calgary until they're 29.

 

[tny760]

I mean the league just needs to raise the cap significantly and cut out cheesy retention deals. There is no reason a team should be able to acquire a player making 25% of their cap hit. And what the flat cap has done to player valuations across the league is disgusting. If you're an average player and you make anything more than 3M you're automatically worthless because any decent team is strapped to the cap. What they should and probably will look into when we get locked out in a couple years is the age/seasons played it takes to become a UFA. Players have too much control now and if the league wants to save Canadian franchises they need to allow them to keep their players. Increase the cap and let everyone get paid more and players won't care about being stuck playing in Calgary until they're 29.

see i disagree, and i think the problem is that GMs are f***in spineless and pay every joe blow with a bit of hype every penny they ask for

you don't have to sign and extend pierre luc dubois at 8x8.5 with full no move clauses, you can grow some balls and offer him 5 years at a lower cap hit or find another solution

they don't have to answer for their braindead spending since they're only gonna be around for 5.5 years anyway, that's not really the player's fault imo

 

[TheBeard]

I mean the league just needs to raise the cap significantly and cut out cheesy retention deals. There is no reason a team should be able to acquire a player making 25% of their cap hit. And what the flat cap has done to player valuations across the league is disgusting. If you're an average player and you make anything more than 3M you're automatically worthless because any decent team is strapped to the cap. What they should and probably will look into when we get locked out in a couple years is the age/seasons played it takes to become a UFA. Players have too much control now and if the league wants to save Canadian franchises they need to allow them to keep their players. Increase the cap and let everyone get paid more and players won't care about being stuck playing in Calgary until they're 29.

Raising the cap isn't gonna make a difference as salaries will raise accordingly as well. The league is about making money, but eventually they have to actually make a sacrifice for the betterment of parity in the league.

 

[TheBeard]

IMO it goes to show why a hard cap is pretty dumb

Using the term" weaponize it" sounds pretty biased.

And on the flip side when weak teams have injuries we get the usual HF Boards crowd with their tanking conspiracies.

Teams are supposed to do all they can to win, threads like this just go to show 2 things.

1. No one is breaking any rules.

2. A hard cap isn't the best thing for hockey nor hockey fans.

It's 100% weaponizing it. It's turning an injury into a weapon. Go onto twitter and see how excited the Vegas fanbase was the moment Stone went on LTIR. They weren't sad about it, the first things they said were "who can we get with his space"? That's how the Vegas fanbase sees major injuries now. They're not unfortunate, they're almost thankful.

On your flip side, 100% teams tank and it's a bad look for the league as well.

Removing a hard cap will eliminate half the teams in the league. Players are already gaining increasing carte blanche to pick the teams they want to go to, do you think that won't get worse if teams were able to write blank checks? Why stay with Carolina when you get get paid twice as much to go to Vegas without paying taxes? NO one would stay in Canada because the Canadian dollar couldn't compete. If you're content with the Dodgers spending 1.2 billion dollars at the expense of small markets then we have a very different perspective on sports.

 

[joepeps]

The most Toronto suggestion of all time

Yeah it's a Toronto thing and not a wanting to grow the league thing....

Blue Jays don't get any free agents... Still don't want a hard cap there... They have a luxury tax like the NHL should have.

Same with NBA... Raps don't get any free agents

 

[Curufinwe]

People always act like players and/or teams have nothing to gain in the whole spiel as a defense, and it's crazy. They're not dumb, they know sitting out an extra three weeks can really improve their odds for a Cup.

Kucherov waited like 3 months after the bubble ended to get his hip surgery that kept him "out" until magically game one of the 2021 playoffs when he then led the team in scoring. Why not get the surgery as quickly as possible so you can get healthy faster?

I hate this crap, and the whole thing is protected under a magical bubble so there's no fix to it.

Why don't people rush into having surgery says man on message board.

 

[joepeps]

1. In the playoffs? Yes, that's what happens now. In the regular season? Never happening; the league is never getting rid of the cap; if for some bizarre reason it did, it's NEVER giving up linkage to HRR and players are never going to go for an uncapped system where there's still linkage to HRR because they would get utterly f***ed on escrow.

2. This could read "someone should do something" and it would be just as much of a throwaway, do-nothing statement.

3. This means nothing without defining what "cap compliant" means - which, that's going to have to allow situations like I describe above, earlier in the thread, and in at least 19 other places (and counting).

Not sure what's hard to understand

1. Luxury tax.. that goes back to small markets
2. We all know there's 2 rules for different teams
3. If the cap is 80 mil this year... The cap in the playoffs each game should be 80 mil for your 23 players..

Simple... Not sure what's hard to understand

 

[Ted Hoffman]

2. A hard cap isn't the best thing for hockey nor hockey fans.

I'm going to nitpick this some.

The NHL doesn't have a truly hard cap. It still has allowances for teams to go over. LTIR obviously can be used to "exceed" the cap while the injured player is out. Performance bonuses are a thing in certain situations, they can even have relative gimmick achievements for players who fit certain critera. There's ways for teams to shift cap dollars so they can get 100% of a player's services at less than 100% of the cost. Teams can realize cap savings on contracts, then shuffle that contract off to someone else and that other team has to pay back the savings while the original team signs new contracts and realizes even more cap savings that it can later on also shift off to someone else, never having to repay any of the cap savings itself.

Ultimately any cap system requires "$ paid to the players" = "$ charged against the cap" in some fashion. Among the things that makes the NHL's cap harder than it should be:
* Artificial limits on contract lengths, not taking into account a player's likely playing career [necessarily forces cap hits higher for longer contracts]
* Charging teams for players in the minors if their cap hit exceeds some threshold, without any regard to whether the team has realized any cap savings on that contract or not.

Is the cap system bad for the NHL? That's a matter of opinion. Players will say yes, it limits how much they can make; owners will say no, they get cost certainty.

Is it bad for hockey fans? Hell yeah it is. They demand to be entertained in whatever way they deem sufficient - but they only want it to benefit their teams, they don't care (and would be completely fine) if it screws someone else over.

 

[Runner77]

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Not sure what's hard to understand

1. Luxury tax.. that goes back to small markets
2. We all know there's 2 rules for different teams
3. If the cap is 80 mil this year... The cap in the playoffs each game should be 80 mil for your 23 players..

Simple... Not sure what's hard to understand

Yeah, what's not hard to understand about:

1. The owners are never doing a luxury tax. They were offered that in 2004 by the NHLPA, they flatly rejected it. They are never doing it. Repeatedly suggesting it isn't making it happen; you might as well go pee the message on the sidewalk out of NHL headquarters, it'll have the same effect.

2. Assertions about the alleged truth of something require proof to be accepted as truth, otherwise they're nothing more than conjecture and repeating them or offering oh, come on, we all know doesn't constitute proof.

3. Your example violates the example I laid out above, where a team is completely cap compliant through the end of the regular season through perfectly legitimate, completely allowed transactions, but is suddenly in violation for the playoffs - and teams and the NHLPA are never letting players get screwed out of playing in the playoffs when everything that led to that was completely legal under the cap system.

 

[Runner77]

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

It's 100% weaponizing it. It's turning an injury into a weapon. Go onto twitter and see how excited the Vegas fanbase was the moment Stone went on LTIR. They weren't sad about it, the first things they said were "who can we get with his space"? That's how the Vegas fanbase sees major injuries now. They're not unfortunate, they're almost thankful.

On your flip side, 100% teams tank and it's a bad look for the league as well.

Removing a hard cap will eliminate half the teams in the league. Players are already gaining increasing carte blanche to pick the teams they want to go to, do you think that won't get worse if teams were able to write blank checks? Why stay with Carolina when you get get paid twice as much to go to Vegas without paying taxes? NO one would stay in Canada because the Canadian dollar couldn't compete. If you're content with the Dodgers spending 1.2 billion dollars at the expense of small markets then we have a very different perspective on sports.

Your team has to be good enough to withstand major injuries in the first place

 

[AvroArrow]

Not sure what's hard to understand

1. Luxury tax.. that goes back to small markets
2. We all know there's 2 rules for different teams
3. If the cap is 80 mil this year... The cap in the playoffs each game should be 80 mil for your 23 players..

Simple... Not sure what's hard to understand

If luxury tax doesn't work, just rework LTIR.

1) Players on LTIR must be activated before the season ends, or they are ineligible to play in the playoffs

2) Players on LTIR must be out for a set amount of time. 120 days or even for the entire season. If you are expecting the player to return, he stays on IR and counts toward the cap.

3) A player activated off LTIR is ineligible to play for X amount of time. 21 days or whatever you wanna make it.

But the simplest to me is, player must be activated before the regular season ends and your roster must be cap compliant. If not, that player(s) cannot play in the post-season. If you're truly such a warrior and such a competitor that you want to play through injury, suit up for game 82.

 

[TheBeard]

Your team has to be good enough to withstand major injuries in the first place

Usually by this point in the season you know where you stand. No question Stone is injured and would have missed time regardless, but in actuality the only way they could add and compensate is by putting him on LTIR and pushing the return to what works best for them. If he was simply on IR (or even LTIR for a month or so) they would not be able to make the moves they're making.

In other words, the team is not good enough to withstand major injuries, hence their free fall. They hoped the return of Theodore would spark things. It didn't. They hoped the return of Eichel would spark things. It didn't. There's no one else to bring back to spark things, so dumping Stone for the season means an opportunity to provide more opportunities for sparks from the outside. I don't question doing that because that's what LTIR is meant for. But having him back conveniently for the playoffs (if that is what happens)?

This is what I mean by weaponizing.

 

[wetcoast]

It's 100% weaponizing it. It's turning an injury into a weapon.

I would use the term utilize it's more neutral but to be sure go all in on your opinion here.

Like I said before they aren't breaking any rules so the upset is kind of ridiculous in a way.

Go onto twitter and see how excited the Vegas fanbase was the moment Stone went on LTIR. They weren't sad about it, the first things they said were "who can we get with his space"? That's how the Vegas fanbase sees major injuries now. They're not unfortunate, they're almost thankful.

I don't know I don't follow twitter as a lot of stuff on social media is garbage and meant to drive reactions.

I'm sure most Vegas fans thought great player X is injured and their first thought was I hope he gets healthy.

On your flip side, 100% teams tank and it's a bad look for the league as well.

Sure I bet the Blacks Hawks intentionally made sure that Hall would be injured and that Corey Perry would go sideways.

Tanking is a BS conspiracy that some hockey fans, many of them follow social media no doubt to reinforce their narrow thinking, that doesn't even make senses for 2 reasons.

1. There is a lottery in place and
2. the difference between 1st pick and second isn't always Mario/Muller

There is always a SC team and a last place team every year, you being a San Jose fan must realize that the Sharks aren't tanking they are a horrible team that needs to rebuild and that doesn't happen at a snap of the fingers, especially is a closed salary cap league.

Removing a hard cap will eliminate half the teams in the league. Players are already gaining increasing carte blanche to pick the teams they want to go to, do you think that won't get worse if teams were able to write blank checks? Why stay with Carolina when you get get paid twice as much to go to Vegas without paying taxes? NO one would stay in Canada because the Canadian dollar couldn't compete. If you're content with the Dodgers spending 1.2 billion dollars at the expense of small markets then we have a very different perspective on sports.

Who said it would be an entire free market no slaray cap, I said luxury tax with revenue sharing for all teams from the luxury tax.

That way if something like Covid or injuries came up there is some flexibility for teams to be competitive.

Why bring up the Dodgers, which small market baseball folded recently?

Also there is a salary cap in the NHL, why isn't there a cap on tickets prices, especially in the playoffs, or parking or beer?

Fans have been duped by the salary cap by billionaires who indeed are smarter at making tons of money it seems.

 

[RestlessYoungZero]

And going deep in the playoffs generates more revenue


This is probably a much larger platform, the majority are fine with it and actually commend the Vegas management for being so good

Where is there anyone commending Vegas aside from their own fans? The closest I've seen is acknowledgement that its technically within the rules, but the majority still recognize its not really in the spirit of the salary cap and want the loophole closed

 

[joepeps]

Yeah, what's not hard to understand about:

1. The owners are never doing a luxury tax. They were offered that in 2004 by the NHLPA, they flatly rejected it. They are never doing it. Repeatedly suggesting it isn't making it happen; you might as well go pee the message on the sidewalk out of NHL headquarters, it'll have the same effect.

2. Assertions about the alleged truth of something require proof to be accepted as truth, otherwise they're nothing more than conjecture and repeating them or offering oh, come on, we all know doesn't constitute proof.

3. Your example violates the example I laid out above, where a team is completely cap compliant through the end of the regular season through perfectly legitimate, completely allowed transactions, but is suddenly in violation for the playoffs - and teams and the NHLPA are never letting players get screwed out of playing in the playoffs when everything that led to that was completely legal under the cap system.

1. I don't care what u or the owners says... I said what I would do to make the league better and grow... Doesn't matter if the league will do it because we already know, the league sprites itself and doesn't want to grow... NHL and NBA were similiar cap and growth rate 20 years ago. There is a reason why it's changed... NBA grew with the times and NHL is stuck and hard headed...

2. Proof Edmondson cross check to Simmons head in playoffs after the whistle 5k fine... Matthews 3 games... Rielly 5 games

3. You obviously don't give a shit about fair and want teams to cheat so anything anyone suggests, you will find a problem .. your one of those problem issues and never give solutions.

All they have to say is the cap is the cap. It runs through the playoffs.... Players can't say shit... Has nothing to do with anything because you contradict the 50 50 revenue split you complained about in point 1. If you have a team with a cap of 100 110 mil in the playoffs, they are over the 50 50 revenue split and will have to pay back money. You can't play both sides because you like arguing

If luxury tax doesn't work, just rework LTIR.

1) Players on LTIR must be activated before the season ends, or they are ineligible to play in the playoffs

2) Players on LTIR must be out for a set amount of time. 120 days or even for the entire season. If you are expecting the player to return, he stays on IR and counts toward the cap.

3) A player activated off LTIR is ineligible to play for X amount of time. 21 days or whatever you wanna make it.

But the simplest to me is, player must be activated before the regular season ends and your roster must be cap compliant. If not, that player(s) cannot play in the post-season. If you're truly such a warrior and such a competitor that you want to play through injury, suit up for game 82.

I'm good with that, at least u provide solution unlike the complainer and contradictor above

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Bettman should be asked this question. He will defend Vegas because he's got to keep growing that Vegas fanbase.

 

[Mr Kot]

Never knew the perception of Vegas cheating the cap was so prevalent. Thought it was just a thing here and maybe reddit.

 

[Melrose Munch]

It's 100% weaponizing it. It's turning an injury into a weapon. Go onto twitter and see how excited the Vegas fanbase was the moment Stone went on LTIR. They weren't sad about it, the first things they said were "who can we get with his space"? That's how the Vegas fanbase sees major injuries now. They're not unfortunate, they're almost thankful.

On your flip side, 100% teams tank and it's a bad look for the league as well.

Removing a hard cap will eliminate half the teams in the league. Players are already gaining increasing carte blanche to pick the teams they want to go to, do you think that won't get worse if teams were able to write blank checks? Why stay with Carolina when you get get paid twice as much to go to Vegas without paying taxes? NO one would stay in Canada because the Canadian dollar couldn't compete. If you're content with the Dodgers spending 1.2 billion dollars at the expense of small markets then we have a very different perspective on sports.

No one is staying in Canada now.

 

[TheBeard]

Like I said before they aren't breaking any rules so the upset is kind of ridiculous in a way.

Breaking rules? Nope. Exploiting the loose interpretation of intent? Yes.

I don't know I don't follow twitter as a lot of stuff on social media is garbage and meant to drive reactions.

I'm sure most Vegas fans thought great player X is injured and their first thought was I hope he gets healthy.

I can assure you the immediate reaction was a mixture of both concern and excitement simply because Vegas fans have gone through this song and dance so much with taking advantage of the LTIR opportunity. They expect it at this point as if that's part of every team's normal season.

Tanking is a BS conspiracy that some hockey fans, many of them follow social media no doubt to reinforce their narrow thinking, that doesn't even make senses for 2 reasons.

Tanking is NOT a BS conspiracy. IT may be among the players, but certainly not in the front office who have long term plans in place. Front offices know when it's best to take high risk and when it's best to take low risks. SJ picking up Blackwood to be a 1A and Zadina to be a top 6 forward were done because either it works out and they have pieces or it doesn't and the team sucks with them. It's a win win situation for the team, but they're certainly not making moves to maximize the potential of their team. If you DON'T think Chicago tanked last year then I have a couple bridges to sell you.

id it would be an entire free market no slaray cap, I said luxury tax with revenue sharing for all teams from the luxury tax.

The rev sharing of a luxury tax is a small drop in the hat in terms of what the big markets make in terms of off the field revenue. The only people that end up happy with the results of revenue sharing are the owners and the fans of the teams paying. The money the smaller markets get doesn't go back into the team's future.

 

[wetcoast]

Your team has to be good enough to withstand major injuries in the first place

Except in a salary cap league no team is good enough to withstand major injuries.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Either cap in the playoffs or if player is not back in lineup by playoffs they are ineligible to play.

These are the only options.