SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
And why can't bacon cure baldness!!!!!!!!!
Confirmed with Link: UMass LD Zac Jones to join the Rangers!
- Thread starter LiveLongandProspal
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Really, ok let's look. Going back to 2005 since Dubinsky and Callahan were picked in 2004.
2005 had an extra 2nd, extra 3rd and 1 in every other round.
2006- 1 pick per round
2007-didnt have a 3rd or 4th, had an extra 7th
2008- had an extra 3rd, no 7th.
2009- no 4th, had an extra 5th
2010-no 3rd. 1 pick in every other round
2011- extra 5th, no 7th.
2012- no 3rd, 6th, 7th.
2013- had three 3rd's, a 4th and a 6th
2014- no 1st, 6th or 7th. Had an extra 4th and 2 extra 5ths.
2015- no 1st, 5th, 6th. had 2 extra 3rd's and an extra 4th.
2016- no 1st, 2nd. had an extra 6th
2017- extra 1st, extra 6th, no 2nd or 3rd.
2018-2020 had a lot of picks, no need to list them all.
But looking back, they had a lot of picks. Should have hit on a few just by accident.
Just out of curiosity--is there a particular player or group of players who fit your criteria of not being a high pick, who then went to Hartford and failed to develop? I have followed Hartford very closely for many years and while I have had reservations about the way things are done down there, I don't really see any systemic failures at developing players.
Go back 10 years and look at the draft--Miller, Fogarty, St. Croix, McColgan, Noreau, Ceresnak. We're excluding Miller; Fogarty took a circuitious development path but became a much better player in Hartford, to the point where he's a fringe NHL player when it looked for a time like he wouldn't even receive an NHL contract. The rest of those guys are hot garbage. McColgan and Ceresnak didn't even get signed and Noreau was an ECHL goon. That's bad drafting--no amount of development in Hartford could have changed the outcomes here.
The next year you have Skjei, Calle Andersson, Spelling, and Nieves. Skjei was a success but we're excluding him. Andersson was here for half a year and was actually doing pretty well, but then decided he wanted to go back home with dad. Spelling never signed. Nieves was also showing good progress in Hartford and looked like he was on his way to a career as a role player in the NHL before his career was ruined by injuries.
The next draft, you do have a couple guys who maybe didn't work out as hoped--Graves and Tambellini. Now, I said coming into the AHL that I had major reservations about Tambellini's ability to play as a pro, so I wasn't surprised he failed, but some people would probably try to argue we could have gotten more out of him. I'd tell you they were wrong, but still. Graves is probably the biggest failure--he was progressing but just stagnated. Did he stagnate because of our failure to develop him or because he was frustrated other guys were getting chances ahead of him? Tough to say. The "good" players from that draft, Buchnevich and Duclair, skipped the AHL. Skapski had injury issues.
2014, we literally had two guys play in Hartford from that class--Nejezchleb, who after playing in the Czech and Slovak lower leagues is now in f***ing Poland, and Brandon Halverson, who was bad everywhere. Everyone else was either unsigned (Nanne, Iverson), traded (Walcott, Mantha) or is Igor Shesterkin.
2015 had Gropp, Kovacs, Zborovskiy, Saarela, Morrison, Bernhardt, and Huska. Gropp was a bad pick from day one who did get better in Hartford, but just wasn't good enough. Kovacs probably should not have been brought over when he was so young, struggled, and proved he was an absolute headcase who is lucky to not be in prison. Zborovskiy sucked. Saarela, traded. Morrison unsigned. Bernhardt injured and unsigned. Huska is doing well developing in Hartford!
2016 was Day, Reunanen, Gettinger, Fontaine, Wall, and Ronning. Day is Day. You want to pin his failed development on Hartford? IDK. He wasn't even that good in the CHL which is why he went from exceptional player to a guy who was lucky to get picked in the third round. His development sucked before he got to Hartford which is why we sent him back for a fifth (!) year of OHL play. Reunanen just got to Hartford and is doing fine. Gettinger has shown development season over season, but it's unclear if his skating will ever allow him to make in the NHL. Fontaine was also progressing before losing consecutive entire seasons to injury. Wall has played a handful of games. Ronning looks like he may be taking a massive step forward.
Anything beyond that isn't worth looking at since if you exclude high picks, we've only had three guys that we drafted make it to Hartford--Crawley, Barron, and Joey Keane (excluding guys like Cuylle and Skinner who wouldn't otherwise be there and have barely played). The trends are this: poor drafting coupled with not a lot of guys actually making it to Hartford to begin with. Some guys making progress, some guys doing well but failing due to injury, a notable failure, and then a bunch of guys who I think we all knew were crappy prospects, and Hartford couldn't polish those turds enough.
I mean honestly--outside of Graves, which draft pick from the last ten years do you look at and say, "This guy should have been much better than he was after spending time in Hartford"?
You mean like Buchnevich? Or Lindgren? Or Chytil?
How is Barron looking in Hartford?
not ok.
To extent your perception is correct, obv, they would mostly have been wrong.
Just like many wanted to move Chytil and Kravtsov and others too quickly.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Barron developed at Cornell for 3 years. He has played less than 20 games in Hartford and only because the Ivy League did not play. That is hardly "developing" in Hartford. I have my doubts he would be looked on as favorably if he went straight to Hartford after being drafted.
Lindgren also spent 2 years in college, Chytil was a 1st rounder. Buchnevich played all of 4 games in Hartford.
Nobody in particular. However, at some point you have to question why they bring these guys to Hartford and none develop. Even the guys you touted at best is Fogarty who is a fringe NHL'er. Graves was in a situation where they just didnt have room for him on the Rangers, but he has taken off in Colorado. Never thought he would be as good as he has turned out.
Were they all terrible picks or were they terribly developed? At what point is it ok to think there is something wrong with how things are done in Hartford or do we simply blame the scouts, or the players themselves? My point is, players in the NCAA and Europe, I would rather they stay in college or Europe until they are truly ready to compete for a spot on the big club.
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You still haven't proven that Hartford is doing any worse developing players than any other AHL team. Until you do that, you can't say there is a problem.
I understand what your point is. And there's nothing wrong with guys staying in Europe or college until they're ready or close to ready, I agree.
But all these questions you're asking--they're not rhetorical. Were they terrible picks, or were they terribly developed? You're asking the questions, why don't you take a stab at answering? I gave my analysis. Tell me who you think was terribly developed. There's this running narrative that Hartford is this black hole of player development, but then when you actually break it down on a player-by-player basis, people very rarely come up with developmental failures that they can point to. I'm curious to know who you think was failed by Hartford.
The reality is most of the guys we send to Hartford to develop are marginal prospects, so when they end up as marginal NHLers or bust completely, it shouldn't really be a surprise.
Exactly right.
Hey, would you look at that? Yet ANOTHER fully developed prospect comes to the Rangers. Wow. Gorton sure has a knack of finding these perfect specimens.
Oh, and Lindgren was fully developed in Minnesota. And Chytil, being a first round pick, needed no developing. He just did it all on his own.
Don't be silly. They just came as perfectly formed prospects. And in the case of first rounders, they just wake up one day and decide to play well.
Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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When looking at the "failures" in Hartford, the ones that I expected more from are usually the kids drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round such as Kovacs, Gropp, Thomas and Tambellini, Lafleur. But it's really hard to pinpoint if those kids failed to develop due to inadequate support in Hartford of because they were simply never destined to reach that next level.
You could say that when it's a constant stream of failed development, something's wrong in Hartford but you never really know for sure. It's not really a tangible thing. It's all based on opinions.
I am happy we're finally getting something out of Hartford in recent years so many they figured out what the issue was. Drury's in charge of Hartford now and it took a few years to see the rewards in Chytil and to a lesser degree Shestyorkin and Lindgren. The next few years will be telling because we recently switched to junior players with our higher picks. Schneider, Robertson, Cuylle etc aren't in a situation where they develop 3-4 years away from this org like Wall, Barron, Kravtsov etc have been able to do. These kids now come into Hartford at age 20. We'll see what happens.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Imagine being displeased with Hartford when the Rangers keep drafting all these fully-developed prospects.
So, all these players have gone to Hartford and the number that have graduated to be legit NHLers. Not even saying superstars. But guys like Girardi (undrafted), Callahan (4th rounder), and Dubinsky (late 2nd rounder) who spent a season or more in Hartford and turned into legit NHLers. They haven't had that in over 10 years and we can't question if there is an issue with what they are doing? Now, if this has been the trend league-wide, then as I said before maybe it is time to think the AHL is not a development league. It is simply a lower tier for guys who will never be legit NHLers. If you want to say Graves developed in Hartford and was moved, fine. But, that is still only 1 in 10 years and we don't think there is a problem?
Did I say fully developed for Chytil or Lindgren? We haven't even seen Barron in the NHL, but not giving them credit for developing Barron in 16 games.
Bluto
Don't listen to me, I'm an idiot. TOGA! TOGA!
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Just responding to say i read the whole thing and it was a great read.
Rangers fans were drooling over Christian Thomas because of his speed. People were expecting him to be another Hagelin.
Have you seen what has largely been at Hartford while the Rangers were making playoff runs every year? Then, after the commencement of the rebuild, it took time to actually obtain assets that would need to be developed at Hartford and not pressed into instant duties.
But as others have made this point, I believe it is a fair one. What examples can you point to of poor developing at Hartford? What are the names of the prospects that were ruined there?
You believe that this version of Barron is the identical one that played in Cornell and that Knoblauch and co have had nothing to do with it?
If the prospects were not fully developed, then yes, Hartford helped to develop them, no? If so, what are we talking about?
I think what Barron has shown is that he is already too good for the AHL. Big issue with why he is not up was because they couldn't fit him under the cap due to the bonus potential. So yeah, I'd argue he was ready for the NHL since January.
I have said already, they have had plenty of draft picks. Yes, they traded their 1sts for 3 years in a row, but had others. The fact that NONE of them turned into anything for the NHL is reason for concern, imo. Whether it be evaluating the talent pre-draft, developing post-draft, whatever. Until we start seeing some more guys come along the way Girarid, Callahan, Dubinsky did, not going to have too much confidence in what we have down there.
I agree completely. But, if someone takes the view that Hartford is not a good place to develop, I'd at least like for them to give some examples of players they think were failed by the Hartford coaches, and maybe also not exclude higher picks that clearly benefitted from Hartford like Miller, Lindgren, Skjei, etc. I just want people to justify their position. Mine is that Hartford has been a mixed bag and I supported it by literally looking at all our picks from six years' worth of drafts.
Yeah I mean, it started early last year, suddenly everyone was all high on Hartford, JD and Drury were turning it around! That's because the first half of the season they had Shesterkin playing awesome, Joey Keane looking like a stud, Chytil playing well the first 10 games, Lindgren down to start, Huska playing well to start, etc. It's like, man, you put higher-quality prospects on the team and the team plays better? No shit! I mean the first ten games with Shesterkin, Chytil, and Lindgren, you had three legitimate NHL players. When was the last time Hartford had three prospects of that caliber in the lineup at the same time? Hartford hasn't generated a lot of NHL-caliber players because we don't send many NHL-caliber prospects down there to play (except the high picks that we can't count :laugh)); there's excitement about Hartford this season again because we have legitimate NHL-caliber prospects there.
Hartford has been mismanaged and neglected, but I don't think it has ruined any prospects, or that--save maybe for Graves depending on how you view the end of his tenure--that we've really held anyone back.
That was never a comparable for Thomas. Who projected that? They don't play similar games.
People drooled all over Thomas because he had just scored 50+ goals and 100 points in his D+1, but more to the point, because our prospect pool was f***ing ghastly at the time.
Fair assessment. And, we will never no if guys like Kovacs, Thomas, Tambellini, etc would have faired better elsewhere and turned into NHLers. As Kreiderman said it is all opinion. But, until we start getting players who go to Hartford who are NOT considered to be sure-thing NHLers and get a few to turn into it after spending significant time down there, mine won't change on the matter.
