Turcotte- time to worry?

[kilowatt]

*laughs in anze,drew and quickie ... but i get your resentment

The Kings didn't really develop Kopitar or Doughty. They were both world class players who stepped onto the team at 18 years old.

 

[All The Kings Men]

The Kings didn't really develop Kopitar or Doughty. They were both world class players who stepped onto the team at 18 years old.

This is always a question I have....

What does it even mean to "develop" a player.

The superstars are the guys that hit the league running. The busts are the guys that never live up to potential and then the rest of the league is just guys we never really talk about or think about in terms of their "trajectory"

What's a great example of a player that was "developed" by a team?

 

[King'sPawn]

This is always a question I have....

What does it even mean to "develop" a player.

The superstars are the guys that hit the league running. The busts are the guys that never live up to potential and then the rest of the league is just guys we never really talk about or think about in terms of their "trajectory"

What's a great example of a player that was "developed" by a team?

There are quite a few 2-7th round picks who have become anywhere from very good to superstar players in the top-6. Brayden Point was a 3rd rounder and Ondrej Palat was a 7th for TB just to name a couple.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

There are quite a few 2-7th round picks who have become anywhere from very good to superstar players in the top-6. Brayden Point was a 3rd rounder and Ondrej Palat was a 7th for TB just to name a couple.

Is that development though? Or did they have it in them?

You are using draft position as an indicator of talent....or maybe as an indicator of development, see, these guys were drafted low, and they developed....etc....but what development did Point have? He was drafted in the 3rd round, played 9 games in the "development league" and 40 pts in 68 games his first year, 66 in 82 his 2nd, and 92 in 79 his 3rd, are you saying he was "developed" into that?

 

[DoktorJeep]

There’s literally a development department. I assume there is a budget which pays for personnel and resources. Their job is to develop drafted/acquired players who are Kings property but not part of the NHL team in a major capacity. Guys like Kopitar and Doughty were NHL players from their first pro game. They never went through the development department. Kempe, Toffoli did.

If an amateur who is property of the Kings goes through things like DEVELOPMENT camp and AHL games, they interact with the development department for the purpose of improving their game to nhl standards.

If they never win an nhl spot on at least one team in the league for 50+ games, they never developed.

 

[Herby]

This is always a question I have....

What does it even mean to "develop" a player.

The superstars are the guys that hit the league running. The busts are the guys that never live up to potential and then the rest of the league is just guys we never really talk about or think about in terms of their "trajectory"

What's a great example of a player that was "developed" by a team?

Cale Makar, Quinn Hughes, Matty Beniers, Matt Boldy, Cole Caufield, K'Andre Miller, Charlie McAvoy, Zach Werenskli were all developed properly because their teams chose to be hands off and let them develop into stars at lower levels, which lead to a seamless transition to the NHL for all these players.

Development is mostly based on decisions made by teams in the first 3 years after drafting the player, especially of 1st round picks where you have multiple different development options (especially for NCAA and Euros). Most teams with similar types of prospects have chosen to be hands off and let the player develop more on his own, where as the Kings have been one of the most hands-on teams in the entire league when it comes to getting players into their system asap. We are continually told by Rob Blake how much of a benefit it is to have these guys in Ontario, but lets be honest, the results have been very poor for high picks, and much more successful for lower ones.

Having Turcotte playing for the Reign in 20-21 not only damaged his hockey development, but very likely contributed to the many injuries that have hit him since then, that is a clear example of a poor development decision.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This is always a question I have....

What does it even mean to "develop" a player.

The superstars are the guys that hit the league running. The busts are the guys that never live up to potential and then the rest of the league is just guys we never really talk about or think about in terms of their "trajectory"

What's a great example of a player that was "developed" by a team?

That's a good question to direct at Mike Donnelly, Jarret Stoll, Matt Greene, and Sean O'Donnell.

A player who comes up the pipeline after spending years "developing" their skills is what I consider to be homegrown talent.

Kempe, Kaliyev, Kupari, and Grundstrom are the forwards who fit that description.

We see more results on the backend with Anderson, Roy, Bjornfot, Durzi, Spence, and Moverare.

Some of these names spent one season in Ontario, but have taken part in many development camps, and to a degree have been eased into lineup spots, rather than immediately taking a roster spot like Brown, Doughty, Kopitar (though he did spend one extra season in Sweden after his draft year). Brown also benefitted with the 2004-05 lockout and had a very productive season in Manchester.

The results from other prospects vary, as we don't know what the status is of the likes of Vilardi, Anderson-Dolan, Turcotte, and Byfield heading into next season. I think if most of those names aren't contributing to the Kings, then they'll be approaching the disappointment label. Three years removed from drafting Turcotte at 5th overall, and two years since Byfield went 2nd overall... most prospects taken in those spots should be making an impact by now. Many names selected after both players are already doing so.

 

[kilowatt]

This is always a question I have....

What does it even mean to "develop" a player.

The superstars are the guys that hit the league running. The busts are the guys that never live up to potential and then the rest of the league is just guys we never really talk about or think about in terms of their "trajectory"

What's a great example of a player that was "developed" by a team?

I would define prospect development as the time between draft and becoming an NHL regular. There are obviously so many paths that players can take, and not all of them are within LA's control, but I would definitely argue that the Kings primary ownership of development takes place in Ontario and is not very good for forwards. We are stellar at preparing defensemen (and formerly goaltenders) in the AHL, but I can't think of many forwards who stepped in from Ontario and made a significant difference in recent years.

That obviously doesn't include the development camps for guys heading back to juniors and all that, and I don't know what else the organization provides throughout the year (if anything — would love to have an insider inform us on that). I guess the measuring stick should be "where were they upon joining the Reign, and where were they upon leaving"? I'm not sure. I haven't given it a ton of thought. Open for suggestion.

Also important to point out that without roster spots available, guys obviously aren't going to succeed. No one's going to play fourth line minutes without power play time and put up big numbers, so this isn't a simple thing to measure.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well, here's an example of the above of something, if true, that should be infuriating.



If after 5 years including lottery picks you're not even looking slightly internally before going for outside help for ONE top six option and ONE top four defenseman AND toughness, you're telling on yourself and voting no-confidence in your drafting and development departments. Why even show up to the draft? The f*** is the vision here, keep the kids in the minors until they're UFAs?

 

[johnjm22]

Development is mostly on the player themselves.

The organization just needs to put them in position to succeed and move them along at the right pace.

 

[tbrown33]

Well, here's an example of the above of something, if true, that should be infuriating.



If after 5 years including lottery picks you're not even looking slightly internally before going for outside help for ONE top six option and ONE top four defenseman AND toughness, you're telling on yourself and voting no-confidence in your drafting and development departments. Why even show up to the draft? The f*** is the vision here, keep the kids in the minors until they're UFAs?

Didnt they say they expect Kaliyev to play top 6? If you add a winger to play with Kopitar and Kempe, the top 6 is full if the Danault line remains the same.

 

[kingsfan28]

Cale Makar, Quinn Hughes, Matty Beniers, Matt Boldy, Cole Caufield, K'Andre Miller, Charlie McAvoy, Zach Werenskli were all developed properly because their teams chose to be hands off and let them develop into stars at lower levels, which lead to a seamless transition to the NHL for all these players.

Development is mostly based on decisions made by teams in the first 3 years after drafting the player, especially of 1st round picks where you have multiple different development options (especially for NCAA and Euros). Most teams with similar types of prospects have chosen to be hands off and let the player develop more on his own, where as the Kings have been one of the most hands-on teams in the entire league when it comes to getting players into their system asap. We are continually told by Rob Blake how much of a benefit it is to have these guys in Ontario, but lets be honest, the results have been very poor for high picks, and much more successful for lower ones.

Having Turcotte playing for the Reign in 20-21 not only damaged his hockey development, but very likely contributed to the many injuries that have hit him since then, that is a clear example of a poor development decision.

Which was on him , not Blake . It was Turcottes choice to leave, and Blake may have ask him to stay and he said no, so all he could do was accept it. He wasn't a big fan of school from what i remember . You can't blame Blake for that, just like his mono his freshman year or his appendectamy during last years camp. Shit happens out of the team control, unfortunately it has happen to him and we all hope he can put together a healthy year and see his full potential.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Didnt they say they expect Kaliyev to play top 6? If you add a winger to play with Kopitar and Kempe, the top 6 is full if the Danault line remains the same.

They sure as f*** did.

But if the above is true they're going into next season with the following age in the top six

X-35-26
26-28-28

And the following in the top 4

32-22
X-26

leaving 6 bottom six forward spots up for grabs and one d-pairing.

Might as well trade the farm for vets with that kind of faith in drafting and development, especially when in a year with insanely inflated offense your second leading scorer had 54 points.

 

[Herby]

Which was on him , not Blake . It was Turcottes choice to leave, and Blake may have ask him to stay and he said no, so all he could do was accept it. He wasn't a big fan of school from what i remember . You can't blame Blake for that, just like his mono his freshman year or his appendectamy during last years camp. Shit happens out of the team control, unfortunately it has happen to him and we all hope he can put together a healthy year and see his full potential.

The teams sign the players, not the other way around. It certainly was in Rob Blake’s control to sign him and put him in the AHL. Alex Turcotte would not have been the first player who wanted to sign and was told to return to school. It has happened many times before.

Also, Blake has had Kupari, Kaliyev, Byfield and Bjornfot in the AHL as teenagers, it seems very unlikely that he’d have felt any different here.

 

[kilowatt]

Didnt they say they expect Kaliyev to play top 6? If you add a winger to play with Kopitar and Kempe, the top 6 is full if the Danault line remains the same.

They sure did. Not sure where. Perhaps breaking up the Danault line to give more support to Byfield? Using Forsberg as a placeholder, could be anyone.

Forsberg - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - Kaliyev
Iafallo - Byfield - Arvidsson
Lemieux - Lizotte - Grundstrom

And where do Vilardi, Anderson-Dolan, Turcotte, Kupari, and Fagemo (amongst others) fit?

 

[kingsfan28]

The teams sign the players, not the other way around. It certainly was in Rob Blake’s control to sign him and put him in the AHL. Alex Turcotte would not have been the first player who wanted to sign and was told to return to school. It has happened many times before.

Also, Blake has had Kupari, Kaliyev, Byfield and Bjornfot in the AHL as teenagers, it seems very unlikely that he’d have felt any different here.

So if Blake told him he should stay in school, then Turc said no Im leaving, what's Blake gonna do, say tough shit kid you're staying?

 

[Herby]

So if Blake told him he should stay in school, then Turc said no Im leaving, what's Blake gonna do, say tough shit kid you're staying?

Most players do what the team wants. These are hockey players not NBA players. If Turcotte really had no desire to go to school why didn’t he just go to Saginaw? Not like his junior rights were in Moose Jaw or Sudbury.

But it’s more than likely Turcotte just does what Caufield and Miller did when Montreal and NY told them they weren’t signing them after their freshman year. Return to school.

In your hypothetical scenario…

“Ok, if you are truly over playing there we will sign you, but if you don’t make the team out of camp we are sending you to Saginaw. We have a lot invested in you and I am not going to damage your development by having you in a league not suited for someone your age”

Anything but the AHL.

 

[King'sPawn]

So if Blake told him he should stay in school, then Turc said no Im leaving, what's Blake gonna do, say tough shit kid you're staying?

Turcotte didn't have many options. He could have:
- Gone to Saginaw Spirit, who owned his CHL rights
- Leave school to try to play overseas
- Tried to join minor junior hockey, like the BCHL, AJHL, or OPJHL (this is what Kings prospect Braden Doyle did this year when he left BU)

I think there is another clause that Mike Cammalleri used to threaten making himself a free agent sooner, but I don't know if that rule is still in effect or what the exact mechanisms are. That said, if Blake thought it was a bad idea, he could have always traded him.

The point is, Blake was under no obligation to sign Turcotte. Just like Faber is under no obligation to sign a contract with LA this past offseason just because they want him.

 

[Kudelski37]

Turcotte didn't have many options. He could have:
- Gone to Saginaw Spirit, who owned his CHL rights
- Leave school to try to play overseas
- Tried to join minor junior hockey, like the BCHL, AJHL, or OPJHL (this is what Kings prospect Braden Doyle did this year when he left BU)

I think there is another clause that Mike Cammalleri used to threaten making himself a free agent sooner, but I don't know if that rule is still in effect or what the exact mechanisms are. That said, if Blake thought it was a bad idea, he could have always traded him.

The point is, Blake was under no obligation to sign Turcotte. Just like Faber is under no obligation to sign a contract with LA this past offseason just because they want him.

The OHL didn't play the 20-21 season so Saginaw wouldn't be good for development because he would have missed an entire season. This narrows choices to overseas, minor junior...a step down, and the AHL. How is minor junior good for development? Overseas brings up travel issues with all of the covid rules for both Turcotte and any LA based front office/development guys. Plus, overseas leagues usually play less games than leagues in North America so he would have less playing time to develop. This leaves the AHL as the best option.

 

[Herby]

Turcotte didn't have many options. He could have:
- Gone to Saginaw Spirit, who owned his CHL rights
- Leave school to try to play overseas
- Tried to join minor junior hockey, like the BCHL, AJHL, or OPJHL (this is what Kings prospect Braden Doyle did this year when he left BU)

I think there is another clause that Mike Cammalleri used to threaten making himself a free agent sooner, but I don't know if that rule is still in effect or what the exact mechanisms are. That said, if Blake thought it was a bad idea, he could have always traded him.

The point is, Blake was under no obligation to sign Turcotte. Just like Faber is under no obligation to sign a contract with LA this past offseason just because they want him.

I think the Van Ryn loophole where NCAA players can play in the CHL as overage players and then become free agents is over. The best way for NCAA players to gain UFA is to play 4 years, but as discussed with Faber that is a big financial (as well as injury) risk. Faber wouldn't be able to sign and play in the NHL until the 24-25 season, signing in LA this coming spring his ELC kicks in 22-23 and he can sign that 2nd contract (where the big money is) after the 24-25 season.

Interestingly enough about Cammalleri. There were all kinds of rumors on LGK that he was trying to Van Ryn the Kings and was going to go to the OHL if the Kings didn't sign him, the reality was the exact opposite, Cammalleri wanted to finish school but was pressured to sign with the Kings by Taylor who included promises that he was going to play with Allison and Deadmarsh. This lead to Allison saying some pretty mean things to the rookie (Allison did not want his line to be split up). Just shows you how wrong so many messageboard rumors can be sometimes.

 

[Herby]

The OHL didn't play the 20-21 season so Saginaw wouldn't be good for development because he would have missed an entire season. This narrows choices to overseas, minor junior...a step down, and the AHL. How is minor junior good for development? Overseas brings up travel issues with all of the covid rules for both Turcotte and any LA based front office/development guys. Plus, overseas leagues usually play less games than leagues in North America so he would have less playing time to develop. This leaves the AHL as the best option.

You are assuming that he wouldn't have just returned to school. Most kids choose to return when the team tells them to, even when they want to leave. Also when Turcotte signed there was no idea that the OHL wasn't going to play games all the way that next fall.

Blake wanted Turcotte in the AHL because he fundamentally believes that is the best place for players (even teenagers) to develop. If you want to argue that he is right, you are more than welcome to but Covid and Alex Turcotte's preference are not excuses for the signing. There was a clear logical choice as to where Alex Turcotte should have played hockey in his age 19 season, and unfortunately that didn't happen and the player and team suffered because of it.

 

[Schmooley]

You are assuming that he wouldn't have just returned to school. Most kids choose to return when the team tells them to, even when they want to leave. Also when Turcotte signed there was no idea that the OHL wasn't going to play games all the way that next fall.

Blake wanted Turcotte in the AHL because he fundamentally believes that is the best place for players (even teenagers) to develop. If you want to argue that he is right, you are more than welcome to but Covid and Alex Turcotte's preference are not excuses for the signing. There was a clear logical choice as to where Alex Turcotte should have played hockey in his age 19 season, and unfortunately that didn't happen and the player and team suffered because of it.

Even regardless of that age 19 season, last year was weird also. Why sign Danault when you just drafted Turcotte Byfield Vilardi Kupari and also groomed JAD into a good bottom sixer? Then on top of it opting to keep Kopitar and Lizotte.
Danault was great but I dont know what theyre trying to do.

 

[Herby]

Even regardless of that age 19 season, last year was weird also. Why sign Danault when you just drafted Turcotte Byfield Vilardi Kupari and also groomed JAD into a good bottom sixer? Then on top of it opting to keep Kopitar and Lizotte.
Danault was great but I dont know what their trying to do.

People tell me I am wrong on this but to me the Danault signing was a condemnation of those 3 picks as a whole (especially Turcotte and Vilardi). Teams who have a 1C signed at $10m for 3 more years and have used three top picks on centers in recent drafts should not be looking to sign another veteran C, unless they are pretty bearish on those young centers.

 

[Schmooley]

People tell me I am wrong on this but to me the Danault signing was a condemnation of those 3 picks as a whole (especially Turcotte and Vilardi). Teams who have a 1C signed at $10m for 3 more years and have used three top picks on centers in recent drafts should not be looking to sign another veteran C, unless they are pretty bearish on those young centers.

Its the only explanation really. If thats the case they need to fix their scouting or development team. Did we all sit through years of tanking only for them to double down on the core that tanked while tweaking the middle of the roster?
They havent made any big moves to suggest they wrote off their picks yet but all the rumors swirling sure make it seem like its coming.
Wonder why they didnt just do it at the deadline last year though if thats the case. Thats why I still cant tell what they are thinking. They havent committed fully to the rebuild but didnt commit to going all in.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Disagree because I think in and of themselves Danault and Arvidsson are fantastic moves. They're adaptable along with roster development. And if utilized properly, even having Kopitar there isn't bad for Byfield, it's that TM's insane 24 minute Kopitar games.

Danault and Arvy are excellent leaders and players. They work HARD. they've taken to the team, look at Phil and Durzi's bromance. Zero issue with those guys.

The problem is allllll the other fluff in the way at the expense of the youth, and if the news above is true, they're just gonna try to run back 2021-2022 instead of moving forward with youth. That's a major issue. What's next, re-sign AA and release Grundstrom?

Pretty much every poster here was able to come up with various rosters that integrated the youth, either on their own lines or with combos of vets.