Turcotte- time to worry?

[Raccoon Jesus]

Did he miss significant development time due to injuries like Turcotte has?

And Williams was an NHL regular at 19. Turcotte is 21 and isn’t going to be on an NHL roster next season.

Yes, he did.

And you're conflating 'isn't on the nhl roster' with 'can't be on an nhl roster'.


Here " Williams was drafted in the first round, 28th overall, by the Philadelphia Flyers in the 2000 NHL Entry Draft. In four seasons played with the Flyers, Williams struggled to live up to expectations, as he tried to adapt to the varying systems of three separate coaches – Craig Ramsay (2000), Bill Barber (2000–2002) and Ken Hitchcock (2002–2006). Williams was also frequently injured, which simultaneously hampered his development. He broke his left hand in his rookie season (hit by David Tanabe of the Carolina Hurricanes) and had various sprains and strains in his sophomore year. Williams also suffered a left knee injury on January 18, 2003, when he was hit low by the Tampa Bay Lightning's Brad Lukowich. The hit tore Williams' anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and medial collateral ligament (MCL), and, on January 23, 2003, he had surgery to repair the ligaments. Originally projected to miss four to eight months recovering from the injury, Williams made it back into Philadelphia's line-up in just three months."

It wasn't until he went to Sweden during the lockout and came back in 2005 as you can see--at age 23-24--when he started really building that legacy.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yes, he did.

View attachment 550837
And you're conflating 'isn't on the nhl roster' with 'can't be on an nhl roster'.


Here " Williams was drafted in the first round, 28th overall, by the Philadelphia Flyers in the 2000 NHL Entry Draft. In four seasons played with the Flyers, Williams struggled to live up to expectations, as he tried to adapt to the varying systems of three separate coaches – Craig Ramsay (2000), Bill Barber (2000–2002) and Ken Hitchcock (2002–2006). Williams was also frequently injured, which simultaneously hampered his development. He broke his left hand in his rookie season (hit by David Tanabe of the Carolina Hurricanes) and had various sprains and strains in his sophomore year. Williams also suffered a left knee injury on January 18, 2003, when he was hit low by the Tampa Bay Lightning's Brad Lukowich. The hit tore Williams' anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and medial collateral ligament (MCL), and, on January 23, 2003, he had surgery to repair the ligaments. Originally projected to miss four to eight months recovering from the injury, Williams made it back into Philadelphia's line-up in just three months."

It wasn't until he went to Sweden during the lockout and came back in 2005 as you can see--at age 23-24--when he started really building that legacy.

No, he didn’t.

Williams played in 63 NHL games as a rookie at 19, appeared in 75 games and 5 additional playoff games at 20, missed half a season at 21, appearing in 41 games, but also played in 12 playoff games that same season he missed time. Got traded in his fourth season when he was 22 and appeared in 79 games that year.

Now do Alex Turcotte.

 

[Statto]

No, he didn’t.

Williams played in 63 NHL games as a rookie at 19, appeared in 75 games and 5 additional playoff games at 20, missed half a season at 21, appearing in 41 games, but also played in 12 playoff games that same season he missed time. Got traded in his fourth season when he was 22 and appeared in 79 games that year.

Now do Alex Turcotte.

I think he was specially referring to missing significant playing time.


-> “Did he miss significant development time due to injuries like Turcotte has?”

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think he was specially referring to missing significant playing time.


-> “Did he miss significant development time due to injuries like Turcotte has?”

How does the injuries Williams had compare to Turcotte in his first couple of seasons as a pro? I don’t see how they correlate.

 

[BigKing]

I think he was specially referring to missing significant playing time.


-> “Did he miss significant development time due to injuries like Turcotte has?”

Compared to Turcotte: not at all. In general because of the knee injury? Sure, but he had almost 150 NHL games under his belt before that happened.

Since being drafted, Turcotte has played in 108 total games across the NCAA, AHL, World Juniors and NHL. It's been a complete nightmare.

Edit - Didn't include his DEL stint in his games played but I was already being generous by including the WJC. Did he get hurt in Germany too or was that Madden?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Asked and answered, you don't have to like it.

Just comparing high character players with the injury prone label who had to fight thru that to become anything.

For all we know Turcotte doesn't even come back from this concussion. But to turf him based on early-career injuries has made other teams look stupid, too.

Edit: hell even when we traded for Williams that was a big concern, you cannot pretend to forget that.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, he didn’t.

Williams played in 63 NHL games as a rookie at 19, appeared in 75 games and 5 additional playoff games at 20, missed half a season at 21, appearing in 41 games, but also played in 12 playoff games that same season he missed time. Got traded in his fourth season when he was 22 and appeared in 79 games that year.

Now do Alex Turcotte.

Kyle Clifford played in 157 NHL games immediately, clearly he's superior.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Asked and answered, you don't have to like it.

Just comparing high character players with the injury prone label who had to fight thru that to become anything.

For all we know Turcotte doesn't even come back from this concussion. But to turf him based on early-career injuries has made other teams look stupid, too.

Edit: hell even when we traded for Williams that was a big concern, you cannot pretend to forget that.

Whatever makes you feel comfortable. Williams didn't have such a label in the early stages of his career, but go ahead and stretch those goal posts if it makes you think Turcotte's first couple of seasons is comparable to that of Justin Williams's first couple of seasons.

Williams being labeled injury prone came much later in his career, when he was already an established NHL player.

 

[Herby]

Kyle Clifford played in 157 NHL games immediately, clearly he's superior.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Kyle Clifford played in 157 NHL games immediately, clearly he's superior.

At the very least, you can clearly admit he wasn't injury prone. I'd be happy if Turcotte made as much of an impact as a young Kyle Clifford, I'd be happy if Turcotte was the next Trevor Lewis. But he's not.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

View attachment 550855

I'm not the one who proposed the silly metric of "NHL GAMES PLAYED ONLY" as a proxy for development time, I just took it to it's logical conclusion.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Whatever makes you feel comfortable. Williams didn't have such a label in the early stages of his career, but go ahead and stretch those goal posts if it makes you think Turcotte's first couple of seasons is comparable to that of Justin Williams's first couple of seasons.

Williams being labeled injury prone came much later in his career, when he was already an established NHL player.

Well no, it DOESNT make me feel 'comfortable.' At this point, with Turcotte, Vilardi, and even to a lesser degree Clarke and Byfield, I think we all could use some positive examples of guys who escaped an early-career injury bug to have long fruitful careers no? The rest of this thread is just people's relentless negativity and injury cheerleading.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm not the one who proposed the silly metric of "NHL GAMES PLAYED ONLY" as a proxy for development time, I just took it to it's logical conclusion.

Could it be because Williams was playing in the NHL right after he was drafted and didn't spend a second in the AHL? No, can't be.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Could it be because Williams was playing in the NHL right after he was drafted and didn't spend a second in the AHL? No, can't be.

He couldn't spend a second in the AHL. Literally wasn't allowed to. NHL or juniors. Remember?

Again, conflating "can't play in NHL because not on NHL roster" vs. "can't play in NHL because of poor roster decisions" WRT Turcotte.

Of course Turcotte's problem has been staying on the ice period, I'm simply saying raw NHL games proves nothing.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well no, it DOESNT make me feel 'comfortable.' At this point, with Turcotte, Vilardi, and even to a lesser degree Clarke and Byfield, I think we all could use some positive examples of guys who escaped an early-career injury bug to have long fruitful careers no? The rest of this thread is just people's relentless negativity and injury cheerleading.

Nobody is cheering for Turcotte to fail, people are just stating as a matter of fact that the selection of Turcotte is turning out to be a major dud, and there are plenty of reasons why fans should be concerned with his future. He could be the biggest waste of a top five selection since Thomas Hickey.

That's not Turcotte's fault and I'm not blaming him for that, but we already had some people expressing concern in his draft year, before the Kings even selected him, about his ability to play the way he does against tougher competition. And sadly, those concerns were justified.

 

[Herby]

Nobody is cheering for Turcotte to fail, people are just stating as a matter of fact that the selection of Turcotte is turning out to be a major dud, and there are plenty of reasons why fans should be concerned with his future. He could be the biggest waste of a top five selection since Thomas Hickey.

That's not Turcotte's fault and I'm not blaming him for that, but we already had some people expressing concern in his draft year, before the Kings even selected him, about his ability to play the way he does against tougher competition. And sadly, those concerns were justified.

The notion that people are “rooting against prospects” is ridiculous.

 

[kilowatt]

Nobody is cheering for Turcotte to fail, people are just stating as a matter of fact that the selection of Turcotte is turning out to be a major dud, and there are plenty of reasons why fans should be concerned with his future. He could be the biggest waste of a top five selection since Thomas Hickey.

That's not Turcotte's fault and I'm not blaming him for that, but we already had some people expressing concern in his draft year, before the Kings even selected him, about his ability to play the way he does against tougher competition. And sadly, those concerns were justified.

It’s fair now to say that there are major concerns for Turcotte given his concussions and injury problems. It was harder to accept when he was first selected because we hadn’t even had a chance to see or develop him at all.

It really sucks that a couple goons in the AHL can potentially end a promising young player’s career. In retrospect, skipping college and juniors and sending kids straight to the AHL has proven to be a massive mistake.

The notion that people are “rooting against prospects” is ridiculous.

Agree — but I think it’s an easy stance to take when you don’t like what people are saying about the prospects on your favorite team. Not singling anyone out here, we see it across the entire prospects forum.

 

[Fat Elvis]

I'm rooting for the kid to have a successful NHL career with the Kings. I just hope he's able to get back 100% healthy first and foremost. Worried about these concussions.

 

[King'sPawn]

Turcotte's circumstances don't mirror Williams' no. I think the point RJ was trying to make is Williams turned out to be a pretty good player once his various but unrelated health issues were put behind him.

To clarify, this isn't a statement that Turcotte will be Justin Williams. Just that a prospect shouldn't be written off due to a weird injury history.

 

[Herby]

Turcotte's circumstances don't mirror Williams' no. I think the point RJ was trying to make is Williams turned out to be a pretty good player once his various but unrelated health issues were put behind him.

To clarify, this isn't a statement that Turcotte will be Justin Williams. Just that a prospect shouldn't be written off due to a weird injury history.

I agree on writing off the player completely. For example, I wouldn’t mention him with Tuebert or Hickey yet, if he can stay healthy he can reach his potential as a Copp, Lizotte (insert fav energy 3rd liner), which is certainly a useful asset for this team.

That being said, Turcotte as a #5 OA was always going to be a problem in the big picture rebuild. You only get so many of these types of picks and with the NHL being an arms race right now you have to hit on your potential difference making picks and turn them into star players. The expectation for a #5 OA pick should be a star player.

 

[Gjwrams]

Bust or not, this year is very, very important in my view. That’s if he doesn’t get moved this offseason in a package. I think he’s a winner, but have serious concerns about his durability.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If you want to see a more recent example of a similarly touted prospect who's had struggles staying healthy, and just got dealt recently, look no further than the appropriately named Cody Glass. He's a more apt comparison to what Turcotte is going through.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The notion that people are “rooting against prospects” is ridiculous.

When you're more concerned about being right--by responding to an injury with a "see i told you so" lengthy report of why his stats are bad--than you are about his health, I don't care what the label is--you're not invested in his success, you're invested in his failure. Call it that, I don't give a f***--that's where you've been.

Maybe you don't want to see the team hurt or picks blown or whatever because of it, but there is not one iota of evidence that you give even a sliver of a shit about Turcotte as anything but an NCAA player you want to be right about.

You can hide behind "i'm a kings fan and that theory is stupid" all you want, actions speak louder than words, and that's what I've viewed from you about him for years. The moment you started parsing his games into "that opponent counts, that one doesn't" was the moment it was clear.

If you want to see a more recent example of a similarly touted prospect who's had struggles staying healthy, and just got dealt recently, look no further than the appropriately named Cody Glass. He's a more apt comparison to what Turcotte is going through.

Juolevi is another one a little further down that path, just barely hanging on to a career at this point.

There's no shortage of guys who injury-fizzled. I was trying to illustrate that there are guys that have breakthrus as well.

Trying to keep this thread from being a miserable pity-party bitch fest but I guess it left that station long ago.

 

[King'sPawn]

I agree on writing off the player completely. For example, I wouldn’t mention him with Tuebert or Hickey yet, if he can stay healthy he can reach his potential as a Copp, Lizotte (insert fav energy 3rd liner), which is certainly a useful asset for this team.

That being said, Turcotte as a #5 OA was always going to be a problem in the big picture rebuild. You only get so many of these types of picks and with the NHL being an arms race right now you have to hit on your potential difference making picks and turn them into star players. The expectation for a #5 OA pick should be a star player.

As much as I harp on the importance of drafting and development, I don't completely subscribe to this. At least not the way I'm interpreting your meaning. If you mean something else, feel free to correct.

17 and 18 year-olds drafted in the top 5, or anywhere really, shouldn't have expectations of stardom put upon them at the time they are drafted. As they grow and mature, sure, you can adjust your expectations. But I believe in player empowerment and letting him play his game in the capacity he can, and adjust his game at the NHL level. But, framing expectations before the player joins the org frames your perception.

If Byfield, Spence, Durzi, Kaliyev, and Vilardi all turn into stars, then I wouldn't give a rip if Turcotte becomes a star. The Kings need a young player to develop into a star player, but that shouldn't be imposed upon one player arbitrarily due to draft position.

I don't expect any of the Kings picks to be stars. I DO expect the Kings, given the volume of picks, draft positions, and resources available to turn SOMEONE into a star. Right now, the Kings are hurting because they've done no such thing with any of their prospects. It took 8 seasons for Kempe to be an all-star (and frankly, he was very hot and cold to the point that I'd need another 30+ goal season to consider him an actual star), and the Kings don't have the luxury of waiting another 8.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

As much as I harp on the importance of drafting and development, I don't completely subscribe to this. At least not the way I'm interpreting your meaning. If you mean something else, feel free to correct.

17 and 18 year-olds drafted in the top 5, or anywhere really, shouldn't have expectations of stardom put upon them at the time they are drafted. As they grow and mature, sure, you can adjust your expectations. But I believe in player empowerment and letting him play his game in the capacity he can, and adjust his game at the NHL level. But, framing expectations before the player joins the org frames your perception.

If Byfield, Spence, Durzi, Kaliyev, and Vilardi all turn into stars, then I wouldn't give a rip if Turcotte becomes a star. The Kings need a young player to develop into a star player, but that shouldn't be imposed upon one player arbitrarily due to draft position.

I don't expect any of the Kings picks to be stars. I DO expect the Kings, given the volume of picks, draft positions, and resources available to turn SOMEONE into a star. Right now, the Kings are hurting because they've done no such thing with any of their prospects. It took 8 seasons for Kempe to be an all-star (and frankly, he was very hot and cold to the point that I'd need another 30+ goal season to consider him an actual star), and the Kings don't have the luxury of waiting another 8.

Frankly I don't even disagree with Herby about that necessarily--you expect guys drafted at that range to be difference-makers in some way. I know 'star' is pretty arbitrary anyway. But I do wholeheartedly disagree that they need to do it immediately in the manner this forum seems to be pushing.

The Kings have drafted some guys that have been, for better or for worse, 'projects' to some degree. We knew Byfield would take a little clay molding. We knew Clarke might need another two years of juniors. We didn't really know immediately but knew quickly that Vilardi would need rehab. We always knew Turcotte was going to need to put on man strength to be effective, a la guys like Mike Richards, Shane Doan, etc.

Where I take issue with some of these evaluations is Turcotte clearly has elite offensive instincts. He's demonstrated that at every level, yes, even at Wisco. There's a reason he was jammed between Kaliyev and Zegras at the WJC and led the tourney in 5v5 scoring. Hell even when we looked at the AHL this year he was leading the squad in 5v5 points per game--if antyhing, emphasizing how stupid it was that they were leaving him off the PP. At the WJC, Zegras was getting the shine for the extra PP points, and ditto now with some of the other gusy in Ontario. His weakness is shot, but playmaking is high end, skating is high end, puckhandling is high end, he was even checking guys better than half the squad at the NHL level. Where he's REALLY going to shine--provided health, of course--is when he gets that man strength.

If me and other posters are going to disagree on his abilities and endgame, that's fine, that is what it is at this point. But the willful ignorance to these stats is more than a bit annoying, and the constant referencing of a 9-game stretch of his college career as a reason he's a failure is dishonest, and the "i told you so" as a response to a 2nd severe concussion is just abhorrent. I'm just not even going to be responsive to such posts anymore.