TSN's Top 50

[WarriorofTime]

How on earth does that disprove my theory? Crosby is great. Best player to come along between Lemieux and McDavid imo. Toews is #2 or #3 (I thibk there's a string case for Ovechkin who no hyperbole may be the best Goal Scorer ever)

 

[WarriorofTime]

So wait, commenting on how +/- shows goal differential and doesn't show defensive ability is "offering an opinion on someone else uses of stats"? That's hilarious. That's what using logic is [mod]

You seem like a decently smart guy despite our strong disagreements ITT so I'll give some advice: having to constantly point out how logical and rational your posts are is not a good look.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I wasn't saying that anyone was saying that Toews is solely responsible for the Hawks winning a cup. I was saying how no 2 players have had that kind of impact on their respective cup chances. I wasn't talking about Toews there at all, I was talking about how the Sedins aren't solely responsible for the Canucks losing to the Bruins.

I won't say "solely" or I guess "jointly" since there's two of them. That would be too strong. But they were absolutely awful against the Bruins. Just like they were against the Hawks in 2010. And against the Kings in 2012. That was the thing about the Sedins. They'd get those games where theyd go 0-3 and 1-2 on the same 3 goals against a weak opponent but against the very best teams, they would get heavily overmatched. They've had nice careers.

 

[hatterson]

I won't say "solely" or I guess "jointly" since there's two of them. That would be too strong.

Except you said "This is one case where them having no Cups is 100% on them."

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

You seem like a decently smart guy despite our strong disagreements ITT so I'll give some advice: having to constantly point out how logical and rational your posts are is not a good look.

What is also not a good look is blind homerism.

 

[417th]

D

1 Doughty
2 Karlsson
3 Keith
4 Subban
5 Webber

They nailed the D.

Goalies

1 Price
2 hank
3 Renne
4 Quick
5 Holtby

Quick should clearly be ahead of Renne but other than that they nailed again.

Forwards

1 Crosby
2 Toews
3 Tavares
4 Ovechkin
5 Stamkos

Crosby at #1 is bang on the money and Toews at #2 is just as solid. But after that I think that they are off all over the place. I love Tavares and think he deserves way more recognition they he gets but he isn't the 3rd best forward in the game. I would bump Stamkos up to 3 leave Ove at 4 and put Getzlaf at 5 and then JT at 6.

Solid list all in all though. They nailed the D rankings right on the money and almost hit the goalies perfectly too. Not bad for TSN.

 

[WarriorofTime]

What is also not a good look is blind homerism.

Agreed. Your anti Seguin comments are pretty mind-boggling.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Except you said "This is one case where them having no Cups is 100% on them."

Because they've played a substantial factor in why their teams have lost their various series over the years. Yeah any crappy player can win a Cup on the right team so no single player can ever be the reason your team lost, but your best players have a disproportionate influence on the outcome.

 

[DanZ]

There is absolutely zero argument for Toews being separated that much from Bergeron, Kopitar, and Datsyuk. That alone shows how overrated he is. Those three are either top five players as well or Toews is not. I'd love to hear the arguments otherwise.

TSN hypes Toews for page views. I laugh at anyone that takes them seriously. The media hype machine is powerful. It's primarily why Donald Trump hilariously has a chance at the Republican ticket.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

There is absolutely zero argument for Toews being separated that much from Bergeron, Kopitar, and Datsyuk. That alone shows how overrated he is. Those three are either top five players as well or Toews is not. I'd love to hear the arguments otherwise.

TSN hypes Toews for page views. I laugh at anyone that takes them seriously. The media hype machine is powerful. It's primarily why Donald Trump hilariously has a chance at the Republican ticket.

I think at this point he knows he's fighting a losing battle hence these comments. The discussion(s) have been about Toews being #1 or #2 and I can't believe posters are trying to defend that -- it's obvious he isn't even close. It's one thing to argue top 10 player (he isn't that either in my opinion... top 10 center is about it).

The poster above calling this list solid and saying TSN nailed it... crazy talk. Especially when his ranking has Quick at #3 and Rask not even top 5. This list is, overall, putrid click bait where a few players are at least in the correct areas. They nailed Crosby at least.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

How on earth does that disprove my theory? Crosby is great. Best player to come along between Lemieux and McDavid imo. Toews is #2 or #3 (I thibk there's a string case for Ovechkin who no hyperbole may be the best Goal Scorer ever)

Wait...you think Toews is the second best player since Lemieux? As in better than Jagr, Selanne, Sakic, Forsberg, Lidstrom, etc.?

 

[daver]

There is absolutely zero argument for Toews being separated that much from Bergeron, Kopitar, and Datsyuk. That alone shows how overrated he is. Those three are either top five players as well or Toews is not. I'd love to hear the arguments otherwise.

TSN hypes Toews for page views. I laugh at anyone that takes them seriously. The media hype machine is powerful. It's primarily why Donald Trump hilariously has a chance at the Republican ticket.

He has a better playoff resume than these guys and does stand out as being more clutch.

 

[gnarls barkley]

How on earth does that disprove my theory? Crosby is great. Best player to come along between Lemieux and McDavid imo. Toews is #2 or #3 (I thibk there's a string case for Ovechkin who no hyperbole may be the best Goal Scorer ever)

the fact that you simultaneously think that Ovechkin could be the greatest goal scorer of all time, and STILL think Toews could possibly have a case over him for #2 is just mindblowing.

honestly, any list that doesn't start Crosby followed by Ovechkin is just plain wrong. Argue whoever you want for 3-10, but having anyone else in the first two spots is ludicrous. The casual dismissal of literally historic talent in favor of "what have you done for me lately?" is just stupid.

 

[WarriorofTime]

the fact that you simultaneously think that Ovechkin could be the greatest goal scorer of all time, and STILL think Toews could possibly have a case over him for #2 is just mindblowing.

honestly, any list that doesn't start Crosby followed by Ovechkin is just plain wrong. Argue whoever you want for 3-10, but having anyone else in the first two spots is ludicrous.

Well I'd probably put AO8 ahead on mine but there's a very strong argument for Toews since he's the best matchup center in the NHL (with the only debate being with Bergeron but Toews pulled through in the 2013 finals so I give him the edge)

 

[TheBannermen]

Quick should clearly be ahead of Renne but other than that they nailed again.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that one. And I'm a Kings fan.

 

[gnarls barkley]

Well I'd probably put AO8 ahead on mine but there's a very strong argument for Toews since he's the best matchup center in the NHL (with the only debate being with Bergeron but Toews pulled through in the 2013 finals so I give him the edge)

and you know, Kopitar, who's actually better possession-wise and defensively than Toews. It's an very debatable point, Toews isn't CLEARLY the best matchup center, although he's obviously top 3 at worst - really hard to take anyone seriously when they claim Toews should easily be #2 or #3 and brush off his immediate comparables.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Well I'd probably put AO8 ahead on mine but there's a very strong argument for Toews since he's the best matchup center in the NHL (with the only debate being with Bergeron but Toews pulled through in the 2013 finals so I give him the edge)

So you give Toews the edge over Bergeron because Bergeron had the punctured lung, broken rib, etc etc and lesser roster... when Trap Jesus or some such poster listed out a massive number of stats clearly showing Bergeron to be the indisputable #1 match up center in the NHL right now?

 

[gnarls barkley]

So you give Toews the edge over Bergeron because Bergeron had the punctured lung, broken rib, etc etc and lesser roster... when Trap Jesus or some such poster listed out a massive number of stats clearly showing Bergeron to be the indisputable #1 match up center in the NHL right now?

Personally, I'd still consider Toews the overall better player (barely) - but that's because I do value goal-scoring and point production highly. Saying Toews is superior just because he's the "best matchup center" is just not correct though, or at the very least extremely debatable - basically every single metric will point to Toews being behind both Kopitar and Bergeron in that respect, the areas that Toews wins out on are pretty much all offensive, contrary to popular belief.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

He has a better playoff resume than these guys and does stand out as being more clutch.

Bergeron scored 2 Game 7 goals and factored in several other playoff GWG (primary assist/goal) in his career. He's pretty darn clutch as well. His team didn't win 3 Cups but that makes him no less clutch.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Well I'd probably put AO8 ahead on mine but there's a very strong argument for Toews since he's the best matchup center in the NHL (with the only debate being with Bergeron but Toews pulled through in the 2013 finals so I give him the edge)

I would definitely be interested in that debate. Digging up stats (I think I already did this, actually)...

Also, that was a tale of 2 series for Bergeron due to his injury situation. Through the first 4 games, Bergeron had 4 goals, 0 assists and the match-up with Toews was even (20-19 for Corsi for Toews in nearly 20 minutes TOI). Over those same 4 games Toews had 1 goal, 0 assists. The next 2 games Bergeron played less than 6 minutes against Toews (nothing to note happened when they were on the ice together), and also did nothing of note overall dealing with injury issues. His faceoffs dipped below 50% and he managed 1 shot total in those two games; the injuries are well documented so it's understandable why his production dipped so much. Toews proceeded to go off for 1 goal and 3 assists without having to deal with Bergeron.

 

[Menzinger]

I see people are still giving credit for the work of great GMs team building work to a single player on the ice.l

 

[gnarls barkley]

I would definitely be interested in that debate. Digging up stats (I think I already did this, actually)...

Also, that was a tale of 2 series for Bergeron due to his injury situation. Through the first 4 games, Bergeron had 4 goals, 0 assists and the match-up with Toews was even (20-19 for Corsi for Toews in nearly 20 minutes TOI). Over those same 4 games Toews had 1 goal, 0 assists. The next 2 games Bergeron played less than 6 minutes against Toews (nothing to note happened when they were on the ice together), and also did nothing of note overall dealing with injury issues. His faceoffs dipped below 50% and he managed 1 shot total in those two games; the injuries are well documented so it's understandable why his production dipped so much. Toews proceeded to go off for 1 goal and 3 assists without having to deal with Bergeron.

well, if I recall correctly from other fantastically intellectual debates here, folks also considered Toews to have "shut down" Getzlaf, who had a hernia and still managed 8 points in their series last year, so don't be surprised if this is still counted as a "win" for Toews.

in the end, injuries happen, and theoretical "what if he wasn't injured" debates are always shaky at best, but yeah - pointing to the '13 finals as an example of why Toews is "the best" matchup center is pretty flawed.

 

[TheMule93]

1. Toews

2. Kopitar

3. Bergeron

4. Datsyuk (age is why he's 4 and not 1)

5. Crosby

6. Ovechkin

 

[CherryToke]

surprised that list came from TSN. looks like something from ESPN... terrible.

 

[Trap Jesus]

well, if I recall correctly from other fantastically intellectual debates here, folks also considered Toews to have "shut down" a herniated Getzlaf who still managed 8 points in their series last year, so don't be surprised if this is still counted as a "win" for Toews.

in the end, injuries happen, and theoretical "what if he wasn't injured" debates are always shaky at best, but yeah - pointing to the '13 finals as an example of why Toews is "the best" matchup center is pretty flawed.

The funny thing about Toews vs. Getzlaf is that that wasn't even the main match-up. Toews played 31:18 against Getzlaf (and had a 38.7 CF%) and 61:51 against Kesler (55.4 CF%). Kruger was the one usually out there against Getzlaf (46:00 with 50.5 CF%). Kruger's ZSO% was at an absurdly low 5.7% as well for that series as well.