TSN's Top 50

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Only in a select few's opinion. Those opinions are very, very wrong. Regardless of how public their wrong opinions are made.... top 10 center, no one will deny!

You and GreatGonzo do NOT represent a majority.

Laughable that you can be presented with so many sources that peg him so high, but count your opinion as not only being "better", but also somehow greater in number.

This could all be avoided if good ol' Canadian boys like Erik Karlsson stopped overrating their fellow countrymen.

 

[finnbalor*]

Malkin is a better fantasy league pick, Toews is a better pick if you care about winning a cup.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Who is better = who contributes more to the team winning. You're not contributing when you're missing 20 games a year.

Who is better = who is better.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This is debate of who is better, not more durable.

Being durable is better than not being durable.

And if you have a player like Toews or Malkin on the ice, they provide a lot of value even if they're not scoring - for example they occupy the other team's best defenders and open up space for their teammates. Malkin can't do this from the press box.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Seems my interpretation is more in line with the experts than you, Ragdoll.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Who is better = who is better.

In the context of a vacuum, or a skills competition, I think most experts (even those on record preferring Toews) would agree. Unfortunately for you, most people in the game think in terms of making it through the ebb and flow of 82 games of regular season and 20+ playoff games - not the hypothetical simulator. Playing "enough" games does matter. Hence not a single vote for a post-season all-star team in the past 3 years since winning the Hart/Art Ross for Malkin.

 

[sharks9]

Yep, they were great players, two of the very best of the best... back then.

But the point is at that it's possible for Western players to score a lot of points and still win a lot.

You know why Toews doesn't score a lot? Because he can't!

 

[Empoleon8771]

But the point is at that it's possible for Western players to score a lot of points and still win a lot.

You know why Toews doesn't score a lot? Because he can't!

No, it's because he chooses not to. Get with the program, dude. Toews could sweep all the awards if he wanted to, his intangibles makes him be so generous and take it easy in the regular season.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

until they say how many general managers they used and stop mixing them in with tv "experts" these list won't mean anything.

Or how about show the votes like the do for NHL awards. Considering the point of these shows (drive Canadians to watch their TV and go to their site) I wouldn't be surprised to see the rankings fluffed a bit.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

But the point is at that it's possible for Western players to score a lot of points and still win a lot.

You know why Toews doesn't score a lot? Because he can't!

Define "a lot" and "can't". Because only 13 players have scored more goals than him since he joined the league in '07/08, and 9 of them have played more games. And his shooting percentage over that time ranks 4th best overall.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Or how about show the votes like the do for NHL awards. Considering the point of these shows (drive Canadians to watch their TV and go to their site) I wouldn't be surprised to see the rankings fluffed a bit.

Do you still not understand that

A) Over the half the league is Canadian. If they are artificially pumping up Canadians, that should apply to a lot more than Toews...
B) Chicago doesn't get TSN. There's no benefit towards trying to draw in Blackhawk fans to TSN's little show.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Why doesn't someone on here do a HF poster TOP 50?

Start a thread with where each poster can post their top 10 in order. Keep the thread open for a week and then use a point system to total it and see how it scores the top 50. I'm sure there will be homer votes but it should still be a pretty good representation.

Check out the polls.

 

[Maldon]

Uh... really? I looked at his most frequent forward linemates over the past 3 years, and saw nothing but 20+ goal scorers.

'14/15: Comeau, Kunitz, Hornqvist - PP: Crosby, Hornqvist, Kunitz
'13/14: Jokinen, Neal, Crosby - PP: Crosby, Kunitz, Neal
'12/13: Neal, Iginla, Kunitz - PP: Neal, Kunitz, Crosby

Haha, Iginla, Crosby? Uhh, so I see what you did there, but here is how much he played with them each season:

13/14: 96 minutes of 5v5 time with Crosby. For comparison, he played 70 minutes with Jayson Megna, 70 min with Chuck Kobasew, etc., ...

12/13: Again, only 100 min with Iginla. Zach Boychuk played 70 min with him. Matt Cooke 50.


Looking at the combined minutes he shared with players in the last three years (he played 2000+ min at 5v5), the forwards with the most minutes he had:

Neal - 700 min

Jokinen - 600

Comeau - 500

Kunitz - 400

Dupuis - 230

No offense to everyone besides Neal here, but yeah, that ain't a great list. Hell, he played as much with Brandon Sutter as with Crosby, and more than with Iginla. I would suggest adding more context when you post info like that.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Seems my interpretation is more in line with the experts than you, Ragdoll.

You mean those experts who only gave Toews 9 total votes for Hart last year?

 

[daver]

Hence not a single vote for a post-season all-star team in the past 3 years since winning the Hart/Art Ross for Malkin.

How many post season all-star votes has Toews accumulated?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Haha, Iginla, Crosby? Uhh, so I see what you did there...

Yes, it's simple. I went to behindthenet, clicked the top linemates and linemates detail buttons, and looked at the last 3 years. Those are the 3 most common forwards, ES and PP, that Malkin has played with in each of the past 3 years. If you want to talk about who the 4th, 5th, 6th most common guys were, that's fine - no problem with being thorough. The details of the top 3 guys in each year, in both situations, though, is enough to diminish the strength of an opinion like "garbage linemates for the past 3 years".

 

[daver]

I would suggest adding more context when you post info like that.

Toews' supporters are simply throwing **** against the wall to see what sticks.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

How many post season all-star votes has Toews accumulated?

Enough to be 2nd team all-star one year, enough to get 4 top 3 votes the year after that, and enough to get 18 top 3 votes last year. In total, I think ~182 votes as a top 3 centre in the regular season over those 3 years.

 

[Maldon]

Yes, it's simple. I went to behindthenet, clicked the top linemates and linemates detail buttons, and looked at the last 3 years. Those are the 3 most common forwards, ES and PP, that Malkin has played with in each of the past 3 years. If you want to talk about who the 4th, 5th, 6th most common guys were, that's fine - no problem with being thorough. The details of the top 3 guys in each year, in both situations, though, is enough to diminish the strength of an opinion like "garbage linemates for the past 3 years".

So I'm guessing you think that Comeau, Jokinen, Kunitz, Dupuis are good linemates for Malkin? You know, 4 out of his top 5 linemates in the past 3 years? Alright, that would explain some things.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Toews' supporters are simply throwing **** against the wall to see what sticks.

And the haters don't have a cleaner that can deal with it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Enough to be 2nd team all-star one year, enough to get 4 top 3 votes the year after that, and enough to get 18 top 3 votes last year. In total, I think ~182 votes as a top 3 centre in the regular season over those 3 years.

I like how you're cutting it off at 11-12 because you know Malkin would destroy Toews then.

Here's a suggestion for you to understand why Malkin hasn't gotten as many votes as Toews for the all-star teams: look at how many games Malkin has missed in the last 3 years. You know, that thing called context.

And the haters don't have a cleaner that can deal with it.

Except logic and stats. You ignoring them doesn't change that.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The 2013 Pens were stacked. On paper, that top 6 seemed unstoppable. Until they did.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

So I'm guessing you think that Comeau, Jokinen, Kunitz, Dupuis are good linemates for Malkin? You know, 4 out of his top 5 linemates in the past 3 years? Alright, that would explain some things.

You omitted Horqvist and Neal to list Dupuis. That explains some things, too. All the top 3 guys he has played with are 20 goal scorers at worst. Plenty of guys centre worse, that's for sure.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I like how you're cutting it off at 11-12...

You gotta start reading these threads more closely. You make mistakes like this all the time rushing to get the digs in. I replied to someone referring to the 3 year window. I didn't originally suggest setting the focus to that at all.

Except logic and stats. You ignoring them doesn't change that.

^ One of the least qualified people in the thread to say such a thing.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Haha, Iginla, Crosby? Uhh, so I see what you did there, but here is how much he played with them each season:

13/14: 96 minutes of 5v5 time with Crosby. For comparison, he played 70 minutes with Jayson Megna, 70 min with Chuck Kobasew, etc., ...

12/13: Again, only 100 min with Iginla. Zach Boychuk played 70 min with him. Matt Cooke 50.


Looking at the combined minutes he shared with players in the last three years (he played 2000+ min at 5v5), the forwards with the most minutes he had:

Neal - 700 min

Jokinen - 600

Comeau - 500

Kunitz - 400

Dupuis - 230

No offense to everyone besides Neal here, but yeah, that ain't a great list. Hell, he played as much with Brandon Sutter as with Crosby, and more than with Iginla. I would suggest adding more context when you post info like that.

Another great point. Other players surely give Toes the benefit of the doubt out of pure respect of his accomplishments rather than actual talent. They're all friends off the ice and hockey players have class.

Players voting him #1 is merely them paying him respect for those team accomplishments as well as being a very good player. It's naive to believe they truly think he is #1 or #2.

Any GM that wants to pick him that early in a draft can be my guest, they are hurting their team greatly when there are somany better choices to build around. Plenty of players with intangibles can be ranked lower and make up the difference in said intangibles.