How much time and effort do you suppose they put into it? Maybe only took off 2 days? I'd guess they were asked to check it off, and grudgingly took about 5 minutes. I'd assume they were given some type of survey, as they wouldn't want to have to think of 50 off the top of their head, and then rank and re-rank them.
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How much time and effort do you suppose they put into it? Maybe only took off 2 days? I'd guess they were asked to check it off, and grudgingly took about 5 minutes. I'd assume they were given some type of survey, as they wouldn't want to have to think of 50 off the top of their head, and then rank and re-rank them.
I agree 100%. It just not something you would necessarily expect given all the tanking talk going on year after year.
Tanking is a necessary evil. Talking about it over and over every year is almost as silly as debating subjective lists that are comparing apples to oranges to pears. lol
DearDiary
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Malkin plays crappy defense? How often do you ever see him hemmed in his own zone? How often do you see teams trying to exploit Malkin or try 1 on 1 against him?
Toews has 2 of the best 2 way forwards in the league in Sharp and Hossa over the past few years. Even if other teams avoid running plays through Toews, his wingers can break up those plays unlike with Malkins wingers. Sharp and Hossa can also move the puck up the ice and create offense. Again unlike Malkins wingers, he has to take risks or his line doesn't generate any offense.
It's unfair to put down players for things out of their control like their GM constructing a contending roster and players linemates
Cawz
Registered User
Why would they "grudgingly" do it? I'm sure they were given the choice to partake or not.
But anyway, I'd take this list over anyone's whos complaining about it on a message board.
Behn Wilson
Registered User
After last season's playoffs if he builds on it this year I would not be surprised to see Hedman slip into next year's Top 5. Dude is a beast!
Not sure what you do for work, but when I'm working if someone side tracks me for something silly, I'm not pleased about it. On your 2nd point, you're kinda right. I mean, sure the list probably is flawed, but it was created to be argued, even if everyone's not an expert. I guarantee you disagree with some choices as well, and I'm sure you don't feel it's because you're uninformed.
Cawz
Registered User
Yeah, the list is flawed, just like any list would be. Its just funny how some people take offence to it.
So goes life behind a keyboard. You'd swear some people forget it's(the interwebs and sports in general) their leisure time. Just for S&G where would you put MacDavid or Eichel? Careful, this is a trick question. One looks to be a dominant 2-way player, and the other a phenom point-getter.
What I've learned from this thread is Kris Draper > Toews because CUPS!!! And Seguin > Defensively because PLUS/MINUS!!
Some people will grab at anything to try and make an invalid point.
I'll ask this question, if Toews puts up his usual 60~ points and Ovi puts up his usual 50 goals/90 points~ do certain Hawks fans still think Toews is the better player if they win the Cup?
Where do those 30~ extra points come from? Oh ya, from having the better team and supporting cast..
Some people will grab at anything to try and make an invalid point.
I'll ask this question, if Toews puts up his usual 60~ points and Ovi puts up his usual 50 goals/90 points~ do certain Hawks fans still think Toews is the better player if they win the Cup?
Where do those 30~ extra points come from? Oh ya, from having the better team and supporting cast..
Cawz
Registered User
Me either. I was hoping someone would bite on the comparison, as seeing it's fine for Toews to be up top with way more skilled players behind of him, but somehow MacDavid should be up top, w/o even a mention of Eichel(ahh maybe at #68). lol The irony.
Tbh, Eichel is going to be hard to play vs. right off the get go, and Connor is going to need someone out there to create space for him, which Edmonton really doesn't have. For that reason, wherever they rank, I'd put them side by side.
GreatGonzo
Registered User
People like to say toews is the most complete player in the league which makes him better than a lot of players like Malkin. Even though Malkin is better at offense than toews is defense. Malkin also has a conn smythe but that was 6 years ago so it's irrelevant(even though toews MVP came 1 year after). Malkin is a two time scoring champ, but that doesn't matter because it's worthless point totals that mean nothing. It's all about defense. By that logic bob gainey with his superior defense should be better than the point compiler Mario Lemieux. It's the same logic.
Toews is better than Malkin because Malkin doesn't play defense. And point totals are only for fantasy league posters and hold no value anymore after nearly 100 years of counting. Laughable. People like to point out how valuable two way centers are without bringing in other variables, like the fact that Chicago, Boston, and LA all have the top defensemen in the league, but that no way helped them win, it was all two way play and just a coincidence.
Tavares was voted the number 1 center over toews, but toews is still clearly better. Why? BecauSe cups and defense. Those same posters like to complain about 2013 where toews was voted ahead of him, yet Tavares had a hart nominee.....talk about flip flopping.
And Then there is toews could easily be a top offensive player if he actually wanted to
easy to say yet no way to prove it. By that logic kopitar and Bergeron could easily be top offensive players as well. Or do they not have that "special something" that toews has?
Most of the arguments are mainly "toews wins cups, so and so doesn't, making him better." Because toews is just the main man on Chicago and carries them each time to the cup. Each team have very successful wingers, doesn't matter, it's the two way centers that allow them to score. Each team have elite goaltending, nope, still two way play.
What's really funny is the same people that are putting toews so high in the polls gave yet to give him any hart consideration. Well that's only because they don't count the post season, and toews doesn't put up meaningless points, he wins cups so he doesn't need a hart or Lindsay even though he could totally win won and should have already.
Basically toews is to good for points, to good for individual hardware, and to good for the players around him. Why? Well maybe because it can't compete with the top guys in any of those categories so he just is to good for all that crap anyway.
Toews is the only player I have ever seen in all my years of hockey be seen as THE best player for basically being to good at everything else and winning cups. Must be nice
Toews is better than Malkin because Malkin doesn't play defense. And point totals are only for fantasy league posters and hold no value anymore after nearly 100 years of counting. Laughable. People like to point out how valuable two way centers are without bringing in other variables, like the fact that Chicago, Boston, and LA all have the top defensemen in the league, but that no way helped them win, it was all two way play and just a coincidence.
Tavares was voted the number 1 center over toews, but toews is still clearly better. Why? BecauSe cups and defense. Those same posters like to complain about 2013 where toews was voted ahead of him, yet Tavares had a hart nominee.....talk about flip flopping.
And Then there is toews could easily be a top offensive player if he actually wanted to
easy to say yet no way to prove it. By that logic kopitar and Bergeron could easily be top offensive players as well. Or do they not have that "special something" that toews has?Most of the arguments are mainly "toews wins cups, so and so doesn't, making him better." Because toews is just the main man on Chicago and carries them each time to the cup. Each team have very successful wingers, doesn't matter, it's the two way centers that allow them to score. Each team have elite goaltending, nope, still two way play.
What's really funny is the same people that are putting toews so high in the polls gave yet to give him any hart consideration. Well that's only because they don't count the post season, and toews doesn't put up meaningless points, he wins cups so he doesn't need a hart or Lindsay even though he could totally win won and should have already.
Basically toews is to good for points, to good for individual hardware, and to good for the players around him. Why? Well maybe because it can't compete with the top guys in any of those categories so he just is to good for all that crap anyway.
Toews is the only player I have ever seen in all my years of hockey be seen as THE best player for basically being to good at everything else and winning cups. Must be nice
People like to say toews is the most complete player in the league which makes him better than a lot of players like Malkin. Even though Malkin is better at offense than toews is defense. Malkin also has a conn smythe but that was 6 years ago so it's irrelevant(even though toews MVP came 1 year after). Malkin is a two time scoring champ, but that doesn't matter because it's worthless point totals that mean nothing. It's all about defense. By that logic bob gainey with his superior defense should be better than the point compiler Mario Lemieux. It's the same logic.
Toews is better than Malkin because Malkin doesn't play defense. And point totals are only for fantasy league posters and hold no value anymore after nearly 100 years of counting. Laughable. People like to point out how valuable two way centers are without bringing in other variables, like the fact that Chicago, Boston, and LA all have the top defensemen in the league, but that no way helped them win, it was all two way play and just a coincidence.
Tavares was voted the number 1 center over toews, but toews is still clearly better. Why? BecauSe cups and defense. Those same posters like to complain about 2013 where toews was voted ahead of him, yet Tavares had a hart nominee.....talk about flip flopping.
And Then there is toews could easily be a top offensive player if he actually wanted to
Most of the arguments are mainly "toews wins cups, so and so doesn't, making him better." Because toews is just the main man on Chicago and carries them each time to the cup. Each team have very successful wingers, doesn't matter, it's the two way centers that allow them to score. Each team have elite goaltending, nope, still two way play.
What's really funny is the same people that are putting toews so high in the polls gave yet to give him any hart consideration. Well that's only because they don't count the post season, and toews doesn't put up meaningless points, he wins cups so he doesn't need a hart or Lindsay even though he could totally win won and should have already.
Basically toews is to good for points, to good for individual hardware, and to good for the players around him. Why? Well maybe because it can't compete with the top guys in any of those categories so he just is to good for all that crap anyway.
Toews is the only player I have ever seen in all my years of hockey be seen as THE best player for basically being to good at everything else and winning cups. Must be nice
I get it. The top 10 should be all Kings and Hawks. CUUUPS BABY!! You could have said that a lot easier. Mike Richards at 7.
JaegerDice
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This whole 'Toews excels because he has better linemates' excuse makes no sense when you look at Toews and Malkin's career CF%Rel and GF%Rel numbers.
Despite having better linemates, Toews has outperformed his incredible linemates by a greater degree than Malkin has outperformed his scrubs.
This despite similar numbers for QoC and slightly tougher ZSO%Rel numbers.
Toews: 4.62 CF%Rel, 8.21 GF%Rel, 50.60 CorC%, 18.09 TOIC, 7.33 ZSO%Rel
Malkin: 3.03 CF%Rel, 4.02 GF%Rel, 50.14 CorC%, 17.82 TOIC, 11.34 ZSO%Rel
Once again. The gap between Toews and great players is larger than the gap between Malkin and supposedly weak-ass scrubs. And he does it against similar competition with tougher starts.
Toews outperforms the great Blackhawks roster by a greater degree than Malkin outperforms the supposedly crap Penguins roster.
But yeah, it's all the teammates he's consistently out-performing that make Toews so great. That's the ticket.
GreatGonzo
Registered User
This whole 'Toews excels because he has better linemates' excuse makes no sense when you look at Toews and Malkin's career CF%Rel and GF%Rel numbers.
Despite having better linemates, Toews has outperformed his incredible linemates by a greater degree than Malkin has outperformed his scrubs.
This despite similar numbers for QoC and slightly tougher ZSO%Rel numbers.
Toews: 4.62 CF%Rel, 8.21 GF%Rel, 50.60 CorC%, 18.09 TOIC, 7.33 ZSO%Rel
Malkin: 3.03 CF%Rel, 4.02 GF%Rel, 50.14 CorC%, 17.82 TOIC, 11.34 ZSO%Rel
Once again. The gap between Toews and great players is larger than the gap between Malkin and supposedly weak-ass scrubs. And he does it against similar competition with tougher starts.
Toews outperforms the great Blackhawks roster by a greater degree than Malkin outperforms the supposedly crap Penguins roster.
But yeah, it's all the teammates he's consistently out-performing that make Toews so great. That's the ticket.
Has he? I've seen Toews wingers perform better than Toews in the playoffs, so in what way is he out performing them? I have yet to see Malkins wingers out perform bim I've seen Bickell, Saad, Kane, and Hossa all do considerably better than Toews in some series.
Show me an example where Malkin was out performed by his linemates. He is his line, we have never seen Toews with inferior company, we have seen Malkin though.
until they say how many general managers they used and stop mixing them in with tv "experts" these list won't mean anything.
Malkin hasn't done much the last 2 years. He shouldn't be in the conversation. Since his 2009 Cup run, there wasn't any year he was great and Close to the best Player. Since then, there were 5 other Cup Winners.
Toews could score more if he Plays in the offensiv oriented eastern conf and if his Team wouldn't be a defensiv oriented. He has much more to do on the ice than just score.
Toews could score more if he Plays in the offensiv oriented eastern conf and if his Team wouldn't be a defensiv oriented. He has much more to do on the ice than just score.
Damn, Malkin is unlucky that these don't count anymore after they are given out.
Let us look at what individual awards Toews has won in the last three years:
Does his single Selke still count? Or did it also expire?
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GreatGonzo
Registered User
So now awards have expiration dates? Toews MVP came almost 6 years ago(Malkin was nearly 7)so I guess that makes it less valuable due to how long it's been
Also see 2012 for Malkin. You may be shocked at what you find....especially compared to Toews lonely selke almost 3 years ago.
And Hawks fans wonder why Toews is seen as overrated...keep telling yourself that and don't feel the need to prove it all at once, I know you Hawks fans are experts
Toews is not even close to the player Malkin is or was, or Tavares is and will be. He is never going to be a top 10 player, unlike these two who are actually/were actually top 10.
Damn, Malkin is unlucky that these don't count anymore after they are given out.
Let us look at what individual awards Toews has won in the last three years:
Does his single Selke still count? Or did it also expire?
These photo ops are very telling.
WarriorofTime
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