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TSN's Top 50

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NyQuil said:
One guy plays against the opposition's top units and the other guy doesn't.

One guy is carrying two one-dimensional scrubs on his wings while the other has two two-way dynamos on his.

You need more info to draw conclusions.

For example, a guy like Mike Hoffman scored 27 goals and was a +16 last year and his icetime was reduced, and he was moved out of the top 6, because the team was worried about his commitment to defensive play.

He was 3rd on the team in plus/minus, behind Methot and Stone.

What do those three players have in common? They all saw limited action/responsibilities in the first half of the season when the team was struggling.

Methot was out injured and Stone and Hoffman were still largely in the bottom six.

The team improves in the second half, and everyone's plus/minus goes up, but those three go up from 0 as opposed to the negative values that the core guys accumulated at that time.

Now Stone is an excellent defensive player and Hoffman arguably isn't, but there's no way of knowing that based on their plus/minus values.
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The only thing this shows be is that dave cameron did not trust Hoffman despite him putting up numbers. Hoffman was better =/- wise under the Walrus. he was a plus 10 in 24 games under Maclean and a plus 6 in 55 under Cameron. How a coach uses you can affect plus minus as well.

That said I agree plus minus needs context just like every posession stat we now have. after all Corsi fenwick and anything derived from them is a glorifies plus minus stat on shot attempts.

Moving Hoffman out of the top 6 was a mistake IMO
 
This list is an utter and complete joke. Stamkos came right out and said "Mcdavid is better than me right now" and somehow he is 6 and McDavid is 37? Ok then. Thats ridicilous and shows how out of touch TSN is.

McDavid at minimum should be 6. Then I dont think its crazy at all to assume hes better than Ovechkin and tavares right now too. Price is a goalie so hes above him. I would say a good ranking and fair to all would be #3 or tied with Toews
pysch lol
 
What a stupid idiotic list!
Half of my teams players should be included or higher and my rivals teams players are rediciously overrated!!!!
 
Mctopchowda said:
This list is an utter and complete joke. Stamkos came right out and said "Mcdavid is better than me right now" and somehow he is 6 and McDavid is 37? Ok then. Thats ridicilous and shows how out of touch TSN is.

McDavid at minimum should be 6. Then I dont think its crazy at all to assume hes better than Ovechkin and tavares right now too. Price is a goalie so hes above him. I would say a good ranking and fair to all would be #3 or tied with Toews
pysch lol
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:laugh:

Thanks for the laugh. Always good to have a joke thrown in every now and then.
 
Finlandia WOAT said:
In that context, sure: but surely you can see that it is only able to because the incredibly narrow applications, and because of the additional statistics that had to be brought in.

When people argue that +/- is useless, what they're actually saying is that, out of any stat, it is the worst, by far, if held up on its own.
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Fair enough.
 
Always the complaints about the love for Toews...

Take Toews off of the Hawks and substitute another active Center over all the years he's been there. I'm not sure Chicago wins any cups with anyone else - maybe the exception of Crosby.

They have had a great supporting cast there the entire time, but mostly average goaltending and non-existent center depth. It is tough to win a cup with either one of those as a factor and near impossible if you suffer from both. Toews may not be the only offensive threat on the team, but he has always been the only center of real importance. Replace him with Stamkos or Malkin or whoever people defiantly say are better than Toews, and I'm almost positive that Chicago wins about zero cups.
 
WarriorofTime said:
2010s +/-:
Toews: +126 Regular Season, +19 Playoffs
Bergeron: +120, +18 Playoffs
Kopitar: +83, +23 Playoffs
Datsyuk: +66, +10 Playoffs
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Plus minus... Really..? Is Tyler Seguin an elite defensive player? Did he not lead the league in plus minus in 2011? (He was definitely near the top). Kucherov was better defensively than Toews last season? Why didn't Garrison win the Norris?

You lost all credibility in this conversation.
 
DCHabitant said:
Again, no stat should be looked at in a vacuum. But it doesn't mean that +/- is an utterly useless stat when evaluating a player. If you had your choice of having a 45 goal scorer or a 55 goal scorer, who would you prefer to have on your team? What if the 45 goaal scorer was +39 and the 55 goal scorer was -39? Would you ignore that stat altogether?
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If the player who was +39 was on a great team while the player who was -39 on an awful team, you'd probably take the 55 goal scorer regardless. You can't use +/- to measure players on different teams. Otherwise you're lead to believe Kucherov and Seguin are elite defensive players. No surprise that Datsyuk was on a much worse team than Toews/Bergeron/Kopitar the last few seasons.
 
Bubba88 said:
I don't see why Malkin should be ahead of Seguin or Kopitar. Surprised to see Josi, he finally gets love.

Toews gets rated high every year, gets praise from everywhere. Coaches, Players, GMs, Writers... all those guys have him that high, yet he doesn't belong.

There is only 1 Player that is better than him and that's Crosby. Still, many Hawks fans wouldn't like a 1 for 1 trade.
Thats what happens when you see him all the time and see what he does, resulting in 3 Cups.

I fail to see why Malkin is rated that high. He hasn't done much in the last 2 years.
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Toews always gets ranked high on lists to start the season yet he's never been able to live up to those rankings by the end of the year.

Here's his TSN rank at the beginning of the year then his Hart voting at the end. Let's see how the media feels about him after the season:
2015: 2nd on TSN, 10th in Hart
2014: 3rd on TSN, 9th in Hart
2013: 6th on TSN, 4th in Hart
2012: 8th on TSN, 0 Hart votes
2011: 3rd on TSN, 6th in Hart
 
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nbwingsfan said:
Plus minus... Really..? Is Tyler Seguin an elite defensive player? Did he not lead the league in plus minus in 2011? (He was definitely near the top). Kucherov was better defensively than Toews last season? Why didn't Garrison win the Norris?

You lost all credibility in this conversation.
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I already addressed this

+/- becomes more and more useful when you look beyond the parameters of one season.
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Ragamuffin Gunner said:
Toews always gets ranked high on lists to start the season yet he's never been able to live up to those rankings by the end of the year.

Here's his TSN rank at the beginning of the year then his Hart voting at the end. Let's see how the media feels about him after the season:
2015: 2nd on TSN, 10th in Hart
2014: 3rd on TSN, 9th in Hart
2013: 6th on TSN, 4th in Hart
2012: 8th on TSN, 0 Hart votes
2011: 3rd on TSN, 6th in Hart
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Here's Toews "not living up to the rankings"

jonathan-toews-nhl-stanley-cup-final-tampa-bay-lightning-chicago-blackhawks.jpg
 
Ragamuffin Gunner said:
Toews always gets ranked high on lists to start the season yet he's never been able to live up to those rankings by the end of the year.

Here's his TSN rank at the beginning of the year then his Hart voting at the end. Let's see how the media feels about him after the season:
2015: 2nd on TSN, 10th in Hart
2014: 3rd on TSN, 9th in Hart
2013: 6th on TSN, 4th in Hart
2012: 8th on TSN, 0 Hart votes
2011: 3rd on TSN, 6th in Hart
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How difficult is it for people to understand that A) the Hart is for a single regular season, and B) the Hart is not for the best player in the league, it is for the player deemed most valuable to his team.

I am fairly sure that if the Hart looked at the entire year (regular season and playoffs), Toews would finish significantly higher in voting.
 
revolverjgw said:
If you're the best (or second best) player in the league, you should be taking home Harts and Lindsays, or at least getting some nominations. Tons of players win the Cup every year, only the best get the top honors.
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Players' goal is to win the Cup, not win the Hart.
 
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