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Empoleon8771 said:
Except for when he doesn't, like when he lost to Zetterberg and then proceeded to draw even with Bergeron and Kopitar in 2013.
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Zetterberg got away with murder in that series.

Kopitar didn't do jack in that series.

Toews scored 5 points in the last 3 games against Boston to lead Chicago to the Cup.

Throughout that entire playoff run teams couldn't score 5v5 with their best players up against Toews on the ice.
 
ArGarBarGar said:
I am completely dumbfounded you consider this a reliable indicator of two-way play.
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I know it wasn't you, but it always irritates me how people go "you have no facts!" and then when presented with facts say "I can't believe you're presenting such dumb facts"
 
WarriorofTime said:
I know it wasn't you, but it always irritates me how people go "you have no facts!" and then when presented with facts say "I can't believe you're presenting such dumb facts"
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Because +/- is a dumb stat.

If not, Pacioretty was robbed of the Selke this year
 
WarriorofTime said:
I know it wasn't you, but it always irritates me how people go "you have no facts!" and then when presented with facts say "I can't believe you're presenting such dumb facts"
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Plus minus has never been a reliable indicator of anything other than what it is meant to show, that is how many even strength/shorthanded goals you are on the ice for, and how many even strength/powerplay goals you are on the ice against. Trying to take anything from that data is silly.
 
ArGarBarGar said:
Plus minus has never been a reliable indicator of anything other than what it is meant to show, that is how many even strength/shorthanded goals you are on the ice for, and how many even strength/powerplay goals you are on the ice against. Trying to take anything from that data is silly.
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And this is a bad thing? :help:
 
ArGarBarGar said:
Plus minus has never been a reliable indicator of anything other than what it is meant to show, that is how many even strength/shorthanded goals you are on the ice for, and how many even strength/powerplay goals you are on the ice against. Trying to take anything from that data is silly.
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LOL, you don't even understand the stat!
 
WarriorofTime said:
And this is a bad thing? :help:
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I'm saying trying to use it to expand upon a point is silly. It doesn't measure two-way play, or defensive play.

Ubi Sunt said:
LOL, you don't even understand the stat!
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What am I missing, here?

When an even-strength goal or shorthanded goal is scored, the plus–minus statistic is increased by one ("plus") for those players on the ice for the team scoring the goal; the plus–minus statistic is decreased by one ("minus") for those players on the ice for the team allowing the goal.[1] Power play or penalty shot goals are excluded. An empty net does not matter for the calculation of plus–minus.
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Empoleon8771 said:
And again, people are misusing +/- like it shows defensive ability. It shows team goal differential when a player is on the ice. That's it.
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Like any stat, it doesn't tell the whole story. But +/- (when compared to other players on the team) does correlate with defensive capabilities. Everyone is quick to point out what a great season Ovy had last year. But his goals/points stats were nearly identical to those of the previous year. Ovy looked better because he wasn't quite as one-dimensional (read: he backchecked and played more responsibly). As a result, he went from -35 to +10.
 
ArGarBarGar said:
I'm saying trying to use it to expand upon a point is silly. It doesn't measure two-way play, or defensive play.



What am I missing, here?
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I was asked for a stat or fact. I provided one.

Somehow, I doubt Wings fans were too upset when +/- was giving Datsyuk Selkes and Lidstrom Norrises.
 
WarriorofTime said:
I was asked for a stat or fact. I provided one.

Somehow, I doubt Wings fans were too upset when +/- was giving Datsyuk Selkes and Lidstrom Norrises.
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So you think +/- was why Datsyuk and Lidstrom won their trophies?

Seriously?
 
Ubi Sunt said:
ITT posters on a hockey board don't know how plus/minus is calculated.
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I'm pretty sure you just don't know how to. Because what the other poster said (it's goals for at ES and while you're on the PK minus goals against at ES and when you're on the PP) is completely correct.
 
+/- is a VERY relative stat. It is heavily influenced by team play and how each player is used within the team structure. It's a nice stat to get a "feel" for how the player plays but it is no way a stat worth anything without further context for each individual player within their team.
 
ArGarBarGar said:
I'm saying trying to use it to expand upon a point is silly. It doesn't measure two-way play, or defensive play.



What am I missing, here?
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I think he's referring to
"and how many even strength/powerplay goals you are on the ice against"

As you do not receive a minus for getting scored on while shorthanded. I'm pretty sure you just made a typo though, so it's whatever.
 
jeffl97 said:
I think he's referring to
"and how many even strength/powerplay goals you are on the ice against"

As you do not receive a minus for getting scored on while shorthanded. I'm pretty sure you just made a typo though, so it's whatever.
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I thought it was clear I meant goals against while on the powerplay (as opposed to being scored on while shorthanded).

Perhaps I needed to just say shorthanded for clarity.
 
ArGarBarGar said:
So you think +/- was why Datsyuk and Lidstrom won their trophies?

Seriously?
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Again, no stat should be looked at in a vacuum. But it doesn't mean that +/- is an utterly useless stat when evaluating a player. If you had your choice of having a 45 goal scorer or a 55 goal scorer, who would you prefer to have on your team? What if the 45 goaal scorer was +39 and the 55 goal scorer was -39? Would you ignore that stat altogether?
 
DCHabitant said:
Again, no stat should be looked at in a vacuum. But it doesn't mean that +/- is an utterly useless stat when evaluating a player. If you had your choice of having a 45 goal scorer or a 55 goal scorer, who would you prefer to have on your team? What if the 45 goaal scorer was +39 and the 55 goal scorer was -39? Would you ignore that stat altogether?
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I would prefer not to look at selective stats devoid of context to make my determination.
 
DCHabitant said:
Again, no stat should be looked at in a vacuum. But it doesn't mean that +/- is an utterly useless stat when evaluating a player. If you had your choice of having a 45 goal scorer or a 55 goal scorer, who would you prefer to have on your team? What if the 45 goaal scorer was +39 and the 55 goal scorer was -39? Would you ignore that stat altogether?
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What do you think Lemieux's plus minus in his first season is an indicator of?

He looks terrible!

Then again, he was the 1st overall pick in that draft year.

Which says something about the team he was on.
 
DCHabitant said:
Again, no stat should be looked at in a vacuum. But it doesn't mean that +/- is an utterly useless stat when evaluating a player. If you had your choice of having a 45 goal scorer or a 55 goal scorer, who would you prefer to have on your team? What if the 45 goaal scorer was +39 and the 55 goal scorer was -39? Would you ignore that stat altogether?
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Gretzky went from being an average of a +61 a season in Edmonton to only have 4 more + seasons in his career, only 2 above a +8 and only one above a +15.

Clearly he just forgot how to play defense.
 
Tom Preissing not only lead his team in +/- once, but the entire league.

+/- is about as useful a statistic, in terms of determine skill at the sport of hockey, as the number of hairs on a player's head, or the number of pairs of underwear they own. It's completely and utterly irrelevant. I put zero stock in +/-.
 
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