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TSN's Top 50

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19Backstrom said:
Just nitpicking, but Datsyuk has 3 consecutive Selkes, not 2.
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I started this in 08-09, when the Hawks first made the playoffs. That's why I didn't include Datsyuk's other Selke.

It's crazy though, the guy had at least 6 straight Selke finalist votings in a row and only didn't have more due to injuries. I don't understand why he was never hyped to being the best player in the NHL but Toews is though.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
I started this in 08-09, when the Hawks first made the playoffs. That's why I didn't include Datsyuk's other Selke.

It's crazy though, the guy had at least 6 straight Selke finalist votings in a row and only didn't have more due to injuries. I don't understand why he was never hyped to being the best player in the NHL but Toews is though.
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Circa 2008 and 2009 Datsyuk was regularly hyped as the best player in the NHL or at least a legitimate contender. Tsn didn't start doing their top 50 thing until 2011.
 
19Backstrom said:
Saying that Datsyuk isn't a two-way force is selling him short. IMO, he's just as good as the Selke finalists. Possession numbers are through the roof, as is the volume of takeaways and he has a good face-off percentage.

He does all of that while scoring over a point per game, at the age of 37.
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He's still fine two ways but he's not on the level of the Big 3 anymore.
 
WarriorofTime said:
What about other years?

And thanks for proving they produce nearly identically at even strength
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So they produce similarly and both have similar defensive skills but one is ranked #2 in the world and the other is #23.

Do you not see the issue here?
 
Empoleon8771 said:
I started this in 08-09, when the Hawks first made the playoffs. That's why I didn't include Datsyuk's other Selke.

It's crazy though, the guy had at least 6 straight Selke finalist votings in a row and only didn't have more due to injuries. I don't understand why he was never hyped to being the best player in the NHL but Toews is though.
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When Datsyuk was at his best, it was Crosby vs Ovechkin all the time, no luck for him.
If 2008 Datsyuk came in today's league where the Art Ross winner has 87 pts, he'd be considered as the unanimous best player in the world.
 
WarriorofTime said:
Circa 2008 and 2009 Datsyuk was regularly hyped as the best player in the NHL or at least a legitimate contender. Tsn didn't start doing their top 50 thing until 2011.
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No he wasn't, it was consistently Crosby and Ovechkin (as in should have been Ovi but people argued Crosby). He was never put above those 2.

19Backstrom said:
When Datsyuk was at his best, it was Crosby vs Ovechkin all the time, no luck for him.
If 2008 Datsyuk came in today's league where the Art Ross winner has 87 pts, he'd be considered as the unanimous best player in the world.
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Prime Datsyuk today would be the best player since Jagr IMO. It's just that the same time he was in his prime, so were Crosby and Ovi (Ovi especially).
 
Yeah Datsyuk is better on the Powerplay. Ive literally never disputed that.
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You're saying he's better at ES and on PP than the 2nd best player in the world.

Empoleon8771 said:
It's crazy though, the guy had at least 6 straight Selke finalist votings in a row and only didn't have more due to injuries. I don't understand why he was never hyped to being the best player in the NHL but Toews is though.
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Because that was the era of Crosby's hype. At least Crosby played like the best in the world back then. Toews is just hype and team achievements.
 
sharks9 said:
So they produce similarly and both have similar defensive skills but one is ranked #2 in the world and the other is #23.

Do you not see the issue here?
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Datsyuk is in a tier more with Getzlaf and Nick Backstrom these days defensively rather than Bergeron, Kopitar, and Toews. Pigeon-holing him into that list based on old stuff is thus illogical. May as well include Crosby's numbers too.
 
Anomie2029 said:
Strictly from a San Jose standpoint:

I can understand Pavelski being rated higher than Thornton, but Burns and Couture? Nope.
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I can't weigh in on the list as a whole, but I will speak to San José's perspective too: Pavelski>Thornton>Couture and Vlasic>Burns.

It's not surprising to me that these lists are always pretty rough. It's a nearly impossible task to accurately rank players like this.

It does surprise me when they fail to get the rankings right amongst players on the same team though. It really speaks to the fact that, despite the fact most of the voters get paid to watch hockey, they still can't keep up with every team in the league, at least enough to accurately gauge individual talent on each one.

That means these lists are primarily based on visibility, popularity, and hype. Nothing more.
 
19Backstrom said:
When Datsyuk was at his best, it was Crosby vs Ovechkin all the time, no luck for him.
If 2008 Datsyuk came in today's league where the Art Ross winner has 87 pts, he'd be considered as the unanimous best player in the world.
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And today it's still Crosby vs. Ovechkin except some people have knocked #8 off (unfairly to me) because he doesn't produce assists like he used to
 
Acallabeth said:
Because that was the era of Crosby's hype. At least Crosby played like the best in the world back then. Toews is just hype and team achievements.
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I would actually include Ovechkin in that and say he was the best player when Datsyuk was at the peak of his game. At least back then, there was certainly an argument for Datsyuk over Ovechkin and Crosby. Not one that would convince me, but there was definitely one there. There really isn't an argument for Toews today outside of team accomplishments and intangibles.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
I would actually include Ovechkin in that and say he was the best player when Datsyuk was at the peak of his game. At least back then, there was certainly an argument for Datsyuk over Ovechkin and Crosby. Not one that would convince me, but there was definitely one there. There really isn't an argument for Toews today outside of team accomplishments and intangibles.
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Well neither Crosby nor Ovechkin are as dominant as they were. A lot of that has to do with the way the league's changed.
 
WarriorofTime said:
Well neither Crosby nor Ovechkin are as dominant as they were. A lot of that has to do with the way the league's changed.
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But they're both still better than Toews enough for there to be no argument. To be honest, the difference between those 2 today and Toews is bigger than the difference between those 2 and Datsyuk in 2008 and 2009.
 
Ubi Sunt said:
Maybe Datsyuk's garbage playoff performance hurt his ranking.
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This is another thing I get a bit of a kick of. We constantly hear about Toews' 2013 performance. Those same people seem to be that either don't realize, or don't acknowledge that Datsyuk's post season resume is not exactly stellar.
 
txpd said:
Ovechkin at 5 is just....Silly. Playing to the Canadian audience I suppose its understandable, but be real. He scored 50 when the best the rest of the league could score was 40. All the while remaining the most dominant physical top 6 forward in a generation or more.

And still playing almost all the games year after year.
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Yeah, I don't know how he isn't the de facto #2 right behind Crosby.
 
Chelios said:
This is another thing I get a bit of a kick of. We constantly hear about Toews' 2013 performance. Those same people seem to be that either don't realize, or don't acknowledge that Datsyuk's post season resume is not exactly stellar.
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Toews was amazing in 2013.
He constantly kills whomever he's going up against.
 
Chelios said:
This is another thing I get a bit of a kick of. We constantly hear about Toews' 2013 performance. Those same people seem to be that either don't realize, or don't acknowledge that Datsyuk's post season resume is not exactly stellar.
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Nobody is currently arguing about Datsyuk being ranked 2nd in the world among hockey players, either.
 
WarriorofTime said:
Toews is by far the best goal scorer. Datsyuk hasn't been a two-way force for a while now. More of a Powerplay Specialist these days.
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Powerplay specialist who puts up similar points at ES while also being 5th in voting despite missing substantial time to injury?

I know you're upset that people are proving that Toews is arguable a worse player than Datsyuk, but don't make up lies.

I could say Toews is a borderline 1st line C, doesn't make my claim right if I can't back it up.
 
nbwingsfan said:
And what proof or facts do you have to prove this? Oh right non, it's just your opinion (which happens to be very wrong).
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2010s +/-:
Toews: +126 Regular Season, +19 Playoffs
Bergeron: +120, +18 Playoffs
Kopitar: +83, +23 Playoffs
Datsyuk: +66, +10 Playoffs
 
And again, people are misusing +/- like it shows defensive ability. It shows team goal differential when a player is on the ice. That's it.
 
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