TSN's Top 50

[hatterson]

The 2013 Pens were stacked. On paper, that top 6 seemed unstoppable. Until they did.

What is your point? I haven't the slightest clue what you're even attempting to argue.

 

[Empoleon8771]

^ One of the least qualified people in the thread to say such a thing.

I'm the one not using logic and statistics? Seriously? Do you seriously believe that garbage? I'm not the one arguing that Toews is the best because his team is good and intangibles.

 

[daver]

Enough to be 2nd team all-star one year, enough to get 4 top 3 votes the year after that, and enough to get 18 top 3 votes last year. In total, I think ~182 votes as a top 3 centre in the regular season over those 3 years.

You said post season, not regular season.

 

[WarriorofTime]

What is your point? I haven't the slightest clue what you're even attempting to argue.

That history is not inevitable like Empolean is making it seem. I had a good post right before about it but I guess it's gone now.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That history is not inevitable like Empolean is making it seem. I had a good post right before about it but I guess it's gone now.

I have no clue what you're even trying to say here. I was talking about the Canucks not being able to win a cup doesn't mean that the Sedins can't win a cup because you need a good team to win a cup, the Pens are entirely irrelevant from that.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I'm the one not using logic and statistics? Seriously? Do you seriously believe that garbage?

I've only gone back through your past 10 posts in this thread, but suffice to say, I see no attempt at use of statistics, nor development of logic. 100% unsupported opinion or simple derision of opinion where you don't agree.

So yes, I seriously believe that garbage is what your contribution so far amounts to.

 

[Maldon]

You omitted Horqvist and Neal to list Dupuis. That explains some things, too. All the top 3 guys he has played with are 20 goal scorers at worst. Plenty of guys centre worse, that's for sure.

Nope. Look at this link.

In my original comment I noted Neal, and in the one you just replied to, I did the same ("4 of the top 5 linemates", "No offense to everyone besides Neal here").

Malkin played 226:09 min with Dupuis since 2012, and 222:18 min with Hornqvist. Regardless, my comment was more about your inclusion of Crosby/Iginla as Malkin's most common linemates. You can check yourself where they land in the link I provided.

And 20 goal guys at worst? Really? Look at Dupuis', Comeau's, Jokinen's career stats. Hell, Kunitz didn't manage 20 goals last season, even though he played with the best active player.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I have no clue what you're even trying to say here. I was talking about the Canucks not being able to win a cup doesn't mean that the Sedins can't win a cup because you need a good team to win a cup, the Pens are entirely irrelevant from that.

Canucks had a Stanley Cup caliber team for quite a long window. They didn't get it done. You can't just discredit performances and say "well of course they were gonna win", that's easy to do after the fact, but not how analysis works in the real world.

 

[hatterson]

The Canucks got as close as you can possibly get and were stopped by one of the greatest post-season goalie performances in history. The Sedins also didn't have a great finals...something Toews as also had in the past.

In Toews case his team stepped up around him, in the Sedins case, they didn't.

I have no idea what else that proves.

 

[daver]

It sounds like most Teows supporters agree Crosby is better than Teows. I am wondering what metrics they are using to determine this?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Nope. Look at this link.

Yeah, it looks exactly like behindthenet, where it lists Neal, Jokinen, Comeau, and Kunitz as his most common linemates. Exactly like I said earlier, only broken down into individual years. Neal, Jokinen, Comeau, and Kunitz are NOT "garbage". And that's what the poster I replied to very openly suggested.

And I think you should note that Crosby is always among the names on the powerplay, where Gino generates ~30 points/year toward his totals.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've only gone back through your past 10 posts in this thread, but suffice to say, I see no attempt at use of statistics, nor development of logic. 100% unsupported opinion or simple derision of opinion where you don't agree.

So yes, I seriously believe that garbage is what your contribution so far amounts to.

I didn't know 10 posts in this thread defined me as a poster. Good to know.

And I just went through my last 10 posts in this thread. One was how Ovi was underrated, 2 were related to how Datsyuk never got the hype that Toews gets despite being closer to the best players than Toews is, 2 were about +/- and how some people don't know what it means, 1 was a joke and the rest were a part of this conversation. So either you're just lying and you're full of **** or you don't know what using stats and logic is.

Canucks had a Stanley Cup caliber team for quite a long window. They didn't get it done. You can't just discredit performances and say "well of course they were gonna win", that's easy to do after the fact, but not how analysis works in the real world.

The Canucks got as close as you can possibly get and were stopped by one of the greatest post-season goalie performances in history. The Sedins also didn't have a great finals...something Toews as also had in the past.

In Toews case his team stepped up around him, in the Sedins case, they didn't.

I have no idea what else that proves.

^^^what he said. Again, winning a cup is a team accomplishment

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

It sounds like most Teows supporters agree Crosby is better than Teows. I am wondering what metrics they are using to determine this?

Experience. If there was a table of magic breadcrumb stats that could be applied universally, people in the game would use it. But it's obviously not that easy. Interesting to note that this is the first year Crosby and Toews almost split the vote among those in the game. Usually it's a Crosby landslide, which is still consistent with "Toews supporters who think Crosby is better" - which is most of "us", I believe.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Sedins performances are why the team "wasn't good enough to win"

This is one case where them having no Cups is 100% on them. Neither is as good a Playoff performer as Toews, that's foolish to even try and argue.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I didn't know 10 posts in this thread defined me as a poster. Good to know.

It's more than sufficient to suggest that you're NOT the one using statistics or logic in this thread, though, which is the point in question that you're (barely) attempting to resist. We can go over your entire posting history in this thread if you like, but I don't think it'll necessarily make the obvious even MORE obvious.

 

[Maldon]

Yeah, it looks exactly like behindthenet, where it lists Neal, Jokinen, Comeau, and Kunitz as his most common linemates. Exactly like I said earlier, only broken down into individual years. Neal, Jokinen, Comeau, and Kunitz are NOT "garbage". And that's what the poster I replied to very openly suggested.

And I think you should note that Crosby is always among the names on the powerplay, where Gino generates ~30 points/year toward his totals.

As I said, just wanted to correct your inclusion of Iginla and Crosby. If I'm talking about top line players, Comeau, Jokinen and, sadly, current Kunitz, probably are closer to "garbage" than to actual legit good players. But YMMV.

And yep, Crosby plays with him on the PP. Not sure what that has to do when we are discussing even-strength linemates. His even-strength linemates aren't affected by it.

And considering how the league calls fewer and fewer penalties each year... oh well, I corrected your mistake, so I did what I wanted to do.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's more than sufficient to suggest that you're NOT the one using statistics or logic in this thread, though, which is the point in question that you're (barely) attempting to resist. We can go over your entire posting history in this thread if you like, but I don't think it'll necessarily make the obvious even MORE obvious.

I just outlined what my last 10 posts were in this thread. So either you're lying and you're full of **** or you don't know what using logic and stats is.

The Sedins performances are why the team "wasn't good enough to win"

This is one case where them having no Cups is 100% on them. Neither is as good a Playoff performer as Toews, that's foolish to even try and argue.

And you just conveniently ignored the point that the other poster made in that they did not have the support cast that Toews had, so pinning the loss completely on them is absolutely stupid.

 

[hatterson]

The Sedins performances are why the team "wasn't good enough to win"

This is one case where them having no Cups is 100% on them. Neither is as good a Playoff performer as Toews, that's foolish to even try and argue.

No one has attempted to argue that.

However, you're being completely disingenuous if you say the Canucks not winning in 2011 is 100% the Sedins fault, but also give Toews credit for winning the cup the year before.

If Kane didn't light up the Flyers, the Hawks don't win that cup and Toews doesn't win his Conn Smythe.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

As I said, just wanted to correct your inclusion of Iginla and Crosby. If I'm talking about top line players, Comeau, Jokinen and, sadly, current Kunitz, probably are closer to "garbage" than to actual legit good players. But YMMV.

And yep, Crosby plays with him on the PP. Not sure what that has to do when we are discussing even-strength linemates. And considering how the league calls fewer and fewer penalties each year... oh well, I corrected your mistake, so I did what I wanted to do.

No mistake to correct. Broken down into separate years, those are his most common linemates that contributed to his yearly point totals. Presenting them in a different way is fine, but in no way constitutes a "correction".

And I saw no specification that we HAD to restrict conversation to his even-strength linemates. Seemed like his ("garbage") linemates were being brought up in direct relation to his production - ~30 points of which comes from the PP in an average year.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Thing is, there are a bunch of Centers that are better suited towards putting up big point totals against bad teams. That certainly has its importance. But where Toews shines is that there's no player in the league you'd feel uncomfortable with him matching up against. I personally place more emphasis on the latter, assuming the goal is Cups, not scoring titles. Apparently tsn and nhl GMs agree.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I can think of maybe 1 team had their cup matchup decided by 2 players, and that sure as hell wasn't the 2011 Canucks. The closest team to have 2 players who had a significant impact on their cup results was probably the Pens in 2009, but not even they fit it since Crosby didn't have a good final and players like Fleury, Staal, Talbot and Gonchar stepped up when Sid wasn't playing well. What a coincidence, cup winning take have that.

Thing is, there are a bunch of Centers that are better suited towards putting up big point totals against bad teams. That certainly has its importance. But where Toews shines is that there's no player in the league you'd feel uncomfortable with him matching up against. I personally place more emphasis on the latter, assuming the goal is Cups, not scoring titles. Apparently tsn and nhl GMs agree.

Except for the fact that Toews wasn't ranked above Crosby here, which completely disproves your theory that TSN and nhl GMS agree with you.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I just outlined what my last 10 posts were in this thread. So either you're lying and you're full of **** or you don't know what using logic and stats is.

You're trying to suggest that offering an opinion about someone else's usage of stats = using/applying stats. Laughable, of course. You've tried to pretty up your own interpretation of what you've "contributed", but it didn't work so hot. No one has to take my word for it OR yours, though, the posts are all right here.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I can think of maybe 1 team had their cup matchup decided by 2 players, and that sure as hell wasn't the 2011 Canucks. The closest team to have 2 players who had a significant impact on their cup results was probably the Pens in 2009, but not even they fit it since Crosby didn't have a good final and players like Fleury, Staal, Talbot and Gonchar stepped up when Sid wasn't playing well. What a coincidence, cup winning take have that.



Except for the fact that Toews wasn't ranked above Crosby here, which completely disproves your theory that TSN and nhl GMS agree with you.

Nobody ever said Toews is the sole reason for Cups. But Toews is extremely conducive to winning Cups and the Cups won are more than enough proof.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You're trying to suggest that offering an opinion about someone else's usage of stats = using/applying stats. Laughable, of course. You've tried to pretty up your own interpretation of what you've "contributed", but it didn't work so hot. No one has to take my word for it OR yours, though, the posts are all right here.

So wait, commenting on how +/- shows goal differential and doesn't show defensive ability is "offering an opinion on someone else uses of stats"? That's hilarious. That's what using logic is [mod]

Wait why is this discussion even continuing? It's completely irrelevant from this thread.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Nobody ever said Toews is the sole reason for Cups. But Toews is extremely conducive to winning Cups and the Cups won are more than enough proof.

I wasn't saying that anyone was saying that Toews is solely responsible for the Hawks winning a cup. I was saying how no 2 players have had that kind of impact on their respective cup chances. I wasn't talking about Toews there at all, I was talking about how the Sedins aren't solely responsible for the Canucks losing to the Bruins.