TSN's Top 50

[STC]

Only in a select few's opinion. Those opinions are very, very wrong. Regardless of how public their wrong opinions are made.... top 10 center, no one will deny!

By "select few" do you mean EVERY SINGLE POLL OUTSIDE OF HF?

 

[gnarls barkley]

The funny thing about Toews vs. Getzlaf is that that wasn't even the main match-up. Toews played 31:18 against Getzlaf (and had a 38.7 CF%) and 61:51 against Kesler (55.4 CF%). Kruger was the one usually out there against Getzlaf (46:00 with 50.5 CF%). Kruger's ZSO% was at an absurdly low 5.7% as well for that series as well.

well, you know what they say - don't let facts get in the way of your argument!

 

[DanZ]

He has a better playoff resume than these guys and does stand out as being more clutch.

Does he really though? In my opinion, not enough to justify him being that many places ahead of them, if at all.

Playoff PPG since 2005-06:

Toews - .87
Datsyuk - .88
Bergeron - .71
Kopitar - .86

I choose 2005-06 as the cut-off because players like Bergeron and Datsyuk are clearly not the same caliber of player as they were before the lockout. The league also isn't the same in the cap era. All have averaged similar possession metrics in the playoffs (with Datsyuk having a clear edge at the top). Bergeron is currently the best defensively. Datsyuk and Kopitar are right there with Toews with Datsyuk at the same level as Bergeron in his prime.

"Clutch" is a completely arbitrary concept. I see nothing here that separates Toews from the rest. I can't see any justification for Toews being so far ahead of these three other than the media hype agenda.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Well I'd probably put AO8 ahead on mine but there's a very strong argument for Toews since he's the best matchup center in the NHL (with the only debate being with Bergeron but Toews pulled through in the 2013 finals so I give him the edge)

I would definitely be interested in that debate. Digging up stats (I think I already did this, actually)...

Over the last 4 seasons, Chicago has a 52.6 CF% without Toews on the ice. Boston has a 50.5 CF% without Bergeron on the ice, so you can get a sense of how much help they're getting in this regard from their surrounding talent. Bergeron has a 44.8 ZSO%, Toews has a 60.3 ZSO%.

Toews' top 100 match-ups against other centers over the last 4 seasons (by TOI)

70+ CF%: 4/100
60-69.9 CF%: 28/100
50.1-59.9 CF%: 45/100
50 CF%: 4/100
< 50 CF%: 19/100 (lowest = 34.1 CF%; 2nd lowest = 35.6 CF%)

Toews' game-by-game breakdown by CF% since the start of 2011/12 (263 GP)

80+ CF%: 7/263 (2.7%)
70-79.9 CF%: 28/263 (10.6%)
60-69.9 CF%: 84/263 (31.9%)
50.1-59.9 CF%: 68/263 (25.9%)
50 CF%: 13/263 (4.9%)
40-49.9 CF%: 44/263 (16.7%)
30-39.9 CF%: 14/263 (5.3%)
< 30 CF%: 5/263 (1.9%)

74.8% over 50 CF% vs. 25.2% under 50 CF% (ignoring 50 CF% games).

Bergeron's top 100 match-ups against other centers over the last 4 seasons (by TOI)

70+ CF%: 9/100
60-69.9 CF%: 37/100
50.1-59.9 CF%: 47/100
< 50 CF%: 7/100 (lowest = 42 CF%; 2nd lowest = 46.2 CF%)

Bergeron's game-by-game breakdown by CF% since the start of 2011/12 (284 GP)

80+ CF%: 10/284 (3.5%)
70-79.9 CF%: 53/284 (18.7%)
60-69.9 CF%: 84/284 (29.6%)
50.1-59.9 CF%: 64/284 (22.5%)
50 CF%: 22/284 (7.7%)
40-49.9 CF%: 35/284 (12.3%)
30-39.9 CF%: 15/284 (5.3%)
< 30 CF%: 1/284 (0.4%)*

*As a side note, Bergeron was injured in this game and only played 4 minutes, affecting his numbers. His opponents were 3-1 for Corsi when he was on the ice.

80.5% over 50 CF% vs. 19.5% under 50 CF% (ignoring 50 CF% games).

 

[gnarls barkley]

Does he really though? In my opinion, not enough to justify him being that many places ahead of them, if at all.

Playoff PPG since 2005-06:

Toews - .87
Datsyuk - .88
Bergeron - .71
Kopitar - .86

I choose 2005-06 as the cut-off because players like Bergeron and Datsyuk are clearly not the same caliber of player as they were before the lockout. The league also isn't the same in the cap era. All have averaged similar possession metrics in the playoffs (with Datsyuk having a clear edge at the top). Bergeron is currently the best defensively. Datsyuk and Kopitar are right there with Toews with Datsyuk at the same level as Bergeron in his prime.

"Clutch" is a completely arbitrary concept. I see nothing here that separates Toews from the rest.

let me save everyone some time here - the rebuttal will be "conn smythe, 3rd cup, all-star team, and gold medals", followed by "look at how much he outplayed these guys head to head", and capping it all off with "well then why do all these experts and Erik Karlsson think he's better"

 

[revolverjgw]

Does he really though? In my opinion, not enough to justify him being that many places ahead of them, if at all.

Playoff PPG since 2005-06:

Toews - .87
Datsyuk - .88
Bergeron - .71
Kopitar - .86

I choose 2005-06 as the cut-off because players like Bergeron and Datsyuk are clearly not the same caliber of player as they were before the lockout. The league also isn't the same in the cap era. All have averaged similar possession metrics in the playoffs (with Datsyuk having a clear edge at the top). Bergeron is currently the best defensively. Datsyuk and Kopitar are right there with Toews with Datsyuk at the same level as Bergeron in his prime.

"Clutch" is a completely arbitrary concept. I see nothing here that separates Toews from the rest. I can't see any justification for Toews being so far ahead of these three other than the media hype agenda.

Twice Toews has been held to a single goal in the finals. Imagine how many intangibles it took to lead his team to the Cup despite that. And intangibles > offense, so naturally this proves that Toews is the most clutch ever, because he relies on his intangibles when it counts most.

 

[daver]

Does he really though? In my opinion, not enough to justify him being that many places ahead of them, if at all.

Playoff PPG since 2005-06:

Toews - .87
Datsyuk - .88
Bergeron - .71
Kopitar - .86

I choose 2005-06 as the cut-off because players like Bergeron and Datsyuk are clearly not the same caliber of player as they were before the lockout. The league also isn't the same in the cap era. All have averaged similar possession metrics in the playoffs (with Datsyuk having a clear edge at the top). Bergeron is currently the best defensively. Datsyuk and Kopitar are right there with Toews with Datsyuk at the same level as Bergeron in his prime.

"Clutch" is a completely arbitrary concept. I see nothing here that separates Toews from the rest. I can't see any justification for Toews being so far ahead of these three other than the media hype agenda.

I don't think he's far ahead of these guys (Bergeron perhaps offensively) but he has been great in the playoffs over a larger sample size.

I don't think one can deny the big goals he seems to score in the POs and in Intl play.

Basically I disagree that there is zero argument for Teows over these players. He has taken advantage of the opportunities presented to him and played well. He has won a Best Forward award and a Conn Smythe.

 

[daver]

Twice Toews has been held to a single goal in the finals. Imagine how many intangibles it took to lead his team to the Cup despite that. And intangibles > offense, so naturally this proves that Toews is the most clutch ever, because he relies on his intangibles when it counts most.

1 goal in the finals > 1 goal in the whole playoffs (Datsyuk 2009)

I am surprised you are taking this stance given your usual defence of Crosby.

At the end of the day, Toews' has more hardware and awards outside of the NHL regular season to separate himself from his regular season peers.

 

[daver]

let me save everyone some time here - the rebuttal will be "conn smythe, 3rd cup, all-star team, and gold medals", followed by "look at how much he outplayed these guys head to head", and capping it all off with "well then why do all these experts and Erik Karlsson think he's better"

He has simply proven more than these guys, why is that so hard to understand?

So how would you rank Bergeron, Kopitar, Datsyuk and Toews?

 

[Hisch13r]

He has simply proven more than these guys, why is that so hard to understand?

So how would you rank Bergeron, Kopitar, Datsyuk and Toews?

Datsyuk
Kopi/Toews
Bergeron

 

[Purity*]

Datsyuk
Kopi/Toews
Bergeron

With an absolutely minuscule difference between all of Bergeron/Toews/Kopitar.

I think if Bergeron got the premium offensive minutes that those 2 got (don't forget that Krecji plays those minutes on Boston) he could get his production up to their level. Just my opinion though. I also think that Toews has gotten by far the best linemates out of all of them to play with as well (Hossa/Sharp/Kane/Saad), but don't mind that fact because I'm just some hater.

 

[Hisch13r]

With an absolutely minuscule difference between all of Bergeron/Toews/Kopitar.

I think if Bergeron got the premium offensive minutes that those 2 got (don't forget that Krecji plays those minutes on Boston) he could get his production up to their level. Just my opinion though. I also think that Toews has gotten by far the best linemates out of all of them to play with as well (Hossa/Sharp/Kane/Saad), but don't mind that fact because I'm just some hater.

Damnit I want to find something we disagree on so we can argue

 

[gnarls barkley]

He has simply proven more than these guys, why is that so hard to understand?

So how would you rank Bergeron, Kopitar, Datsyuk and Toews?

based on what? all the medals he's won by being Canadian instead of Slovenian or Russian? the good fortune to be drafted by a savvy GM that built a championship team around him almost immediately?

if you actually objectively look at what all those players do, it'd be blatantly obvious that there is no LARGE difference between them - everyone has their own preference, but it's just that - PREFERENCE. There just isn't any significant amount of statistical proof to support Toews as an individual being on a different tier from those guys, or vice versa.

 

[GreatGonzo]

He has simply proven more than these guys, why is that so hard to understand?

So how would you rank Bergeron, Kopitar, Datsyuk and Toews?

He has simply proven more? In what way? He's proven to have more intangibles than the following, that's about it.

1 goal in the finals > 1 goal in the whole playoffs (Datsyuk 2009)

I am surprised you are taking this stance given your usual defence of Crosby.

At the end of the day, Toews' has more hardware and awards outside of the NHL regular season to separate himself from his regular season peers.

Datsyuk was injured most the playoffs so that comparison falls flat. He only played 16 games and came late into the playoffs. This was a big reason why Malkin was able to run wild during he finals. Zetterberg had Crosby on lock but dats was injured. Nice try though

Toews was held to 1 goal the first 21 games of the playoffs, 0 goals in 2010, and 1 goal in 2015. And an injured Datsyuk who barely played had 1. Again nice try

At the end of the day, post season awards are primarily team achieved, also the fact that Justin Williams has the same amount of awards Toews does. I guys that makes him a top player in the league by your standards.

That's the problem with people saying post season awards>regular season awards. The regular season recognizes more the individual than the team, and is rewarded for their individual effort. You still need to win the cup to win the conn smythe(rarely the opposite happens) which requires a good team.

I don't think he's far ahead of these guys (Bergeron perhaps offensively) but he has been great in the playoffs over a larger sample size.

I don't think one can deny the big goals he seems to score in the POs and in Intl play.

Basically I disagree that there is zero argument for Teows over these players. He has taken advantage of the opportunities presented to him and played well. He has won a Best Forward award and a Conn Smythe.

Yet you have nothing to provide to show how that might be true. Isn't the strange. You can think all you want, it all comes down to that you just think he is flat out better just because. Nice argument.

And the other 3 haven't? Every one of those guys have a cup and great playoff numbers. Every single one of them has been a selke caliber two way player, but what separates them is a conn smythe and best forward MVP? Your putting way to much into those two awards. Kessel won best forward these past olympics and Justin Williams won conn smythe over Kopitar. 2 players that Toews is clearly better than have won the same award that Toews has.

 

[DearDiary]

If you think the opinion of hfboards posters mean nothing, why do you continue to post in this thread? You're on here hours a day arguing, why waste your time with us? Go back and watch some more TSN, our opinions here seem to be trash.

 

[daver]

Yet you have nothing to provide to show how that might be true. Isn't the strange. You can think all you want, it all comes down to that you just think he is flat out better just because. Nice argument.

And the other 3 haven't? Every one of those guys have a cup and great playoff numbers. Every single one of them has been a selke caliber two way player, but what separates them is a conn smythe and best forward MVP? Your putting way to much into those two awards. Kessel won best forward these past olympics and Justin Williams won conn smythe over Kopitar. 2 players that Toews is clearly better than have won the same award that Toews has.

No need to be a dick about things. You would have noticed I have argued against Toews being ahead of any offensively better players all along.

A Conn Smythe, more playoff points (since 05/06) and the Olympics Best Forward award are tangible indicators as to how Teows is more proven than the other players and that there's some, rather than zero, evidence to rate him above them.

His peers all have had opportunities to win the Conn Smythe, they didn't. Toews' has the best peak playoff performance.

 

[daver]

based on what? all the medals he's won by being Canadian instead of Slovenian or Russian? the good fortune to be drafted by a savvy GM that built a championship team around him almost immediately?

if you actually objectively look at what all those players do, it'd be blatantly obvious that there is no LARGE difference between them - everyone has their own preference, but it's just that - PREFERENCE. There just isn't any significant amount of statistical proof to support Toews as an individual being on a different tier from those guys, or vice versa.

Why don't you reread the posts and you'll notice I said squat about medals but rather individual accomplishments.

 

[Captain Serious 19]

Seems about right.

 

[McBaevid]

Can't wait until the Hawks decline and the rest of the hockey world sees how overrated Toews is

 

[Captain Serious 19]

Can't wait until the Hawks decline and the rest of the hockey world sees how overrated Toews is

Love seeing the raw jealousy. He is the 2nd best player in the NHL and the team declining will not change that. We know the Hawks win cups because they have a great team, not just because of Toews. He is perfect for his role and dominates when needed. The Hawks decline will coincide with him aging.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Love seeing the raw jealousy. He is the 2nd best player in the NHL and the team declining will not change that. We know the Hawks win cups because they have a great team, not just because of Toews. He is perfect for his role and dominates when needed. The Hawks decline will coincide with him aging.

He's never won anything tangible to be argued as the 2nd best player. No Lindsay no hart nothing not even a nomination. These are the same kind of people that probably tried to argue trottier over gretzky in the early 80s... This season when crosby outscores Toews by 30 + points we can continue this convo...

 

[Cawz]

There is absolutely zero argument for Toews being separated that much from Bergeron, Kopitar, and Datsyuk. That alone shows how overrated he is. Those three are either top five players as well or Toews is not. I'd love to hear the arguments otherwise.

TSN hypes Toews for page views. I laugh at anyone that takes them seriously. The media hype machine is powerful. It's primarily why Donald Trump hilariously has a chance at the Republican ticket.

They asked Erik Karlsson and he said Toews was #1. Does he work for TSN now?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

They asked Erik Karlsson and he said Toews was #1. Does he work for TSN now?

He's probably still trying to find his jock from the 2013 playoffs

 

[JA]

 

[Hisch13r]

Love seeing the raw jealousy. He is the 2nd best player in the NHL and the team declining will not change that. We know the Hawks win cups because they have a great team, not just because of Toews. He is perfect for his role and dominates when needed. The Hawks decline will coincide with him aging.

Where do you think Kopitar ranks in the league?

Ooh are you going to be dissappointed when Seabrook and Keith start to decline.