Speculation: Trouba Contract Discussion Part II

[Hunter368]

Of course it's speculation.

Personally, I speculate it went something like this:

Kane: I want to be traded
Chevy: We own your rights right now. I'll keep your request in mind, and if a trade comes up that makes sense for us I'll try to accommodate your request. But you should expect to be a member of this team for the foreseeable future.
Kane: But I really want to be traded because of X.
Chevy: That's nice. Is there anything else?

If all it is speculation then it's meaningless and waste of time. It's actually counter productive.

 

[Hunter368]

Yes, of course that's the angle I want to take - if it wasn't, I wouldn't have posted it.

A player can request a trade all they want. A team is NOT obliged to trade them. You stated:



By providing him with a very good long term contract? This statement doesn't make any sense.

To relate this to Trouba:

If Trouba wants out (and I don't have any reason to believe he does), then it will be on the Jets terms, not his. That's the way it works - the players (including Trouba, or at least via his Player representatives) negotiated the CBA with the teams. Nowhere in that CBA does it state that teams must honour player requests for trades.

Now, if Trouba does want out, then the best thing he can do is play ball with Chevy, and sign a good, long term contract. Any issues with contract negotiations would be resolved by the Jets, and the team he'd end up getting traded to wouldn't have to deal with it. Certainty can be a good thing for trades, methinks.

- I manage in one of the largest unions in Canada......you can use the CBA as a basis to manage with reason or as a weapon. Depending on which Avenue you take will largely determine you employee relations

- Signing a contract means nothing in regards to be traded or not imo. Certainly Kane example is perfect example not being reasonable and honoring a trade request despite being given 3+ years to do it, more then reasonable time period. I'm not advocating he sits out, I'm just saying signing a contract doesn't necessarily helps anything

 

[Hunter368]

Team comes first. GMs do what is best for the team before what is best for some whiney player.

No one is questioning that, but that's not the agent or players POV necessarily. Takes two to dance, if I was Trouba now is the time to resolve these issues. No record of Trouba complaining when he played out his elc

 

[surixon]

- I manage in one of the largest unions in Canada......you can use the CBA as a basis to manage with reason or as a weapon. Depending on which Avenue you take will largely determine you employee relations

- Signing a contract means nothing in regards to be traded or not imo. Certainly Kane example is perfect example not being reasonable and honoring a trade request despite being given 3+ years to do it, more then reasonable time period. I'm not advocating he sits out, I'm just saying signing a contract doesn't necessarily helps anything

The players have no issue using the CBA as a weapon when it's in their best interest as well. Was it reasonable for Hamhuise, Sundin etc to hold teams hostage when the org wanted to move on, but it was their right to accept a move or not due to what they negotiated. It goes both ways, I personally have no issue with Chevy using the CBA to his advantage.

 

[Whileee]

- I manage in one of the largest unions in Canada......you can use the CBA as a basis to manage with reason or as a weapon. Depending on which Avenue you take will largely determine you employee relations

- Signing a contract means nothing in regards to be traded or not imo. Certainly Kane example is perfect example not being reasonable and honoring a trade request despite being given 3+ years to do it, more then reasonable time period. I'm not advocating he sits out, I'm just saying signing a contract doesn't necessarily helps anything

Kane said he asked for a trade every year, after he had the infamous incident and had been traded. While he was with the Jets he publicly said he was fine in Winnipeg. I wouldn't take his word as the most reliable.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

The players have no issue using the CBA as a weapon when it's in their best interest as well. Was it reasonable for Hamhuise, Sundin etc to hold teams hostage when the org wanted to move on, but it was their right to accept a move or not due to what they negotiated. It goes both ways, I personally have no issue with Chevy using the CBA to his advantage.

100% agree with this - this is my stance as well. The two sides negotiated the CBA, and the two sides use it to their advantage when they can.

There is NO reason for Chevy to back off on the team's rights. There is every reason to use every inch the teams gained in those negotiations in dealing with Trouba, just as Trouba has every right to use all the rights afforded to him.

Just because a player requests a trade, doesn't mean the team ever has to accommodate. They may, if the deal suits the team AND the party asking for the trade.

Regarding whether or not it would be easier to trade Trouba if he were signed? If he were sitting on a 7yr x $5.25M deal, I'd think that many, many teams would jump at this. This is my own speculation (which is what this board runs on, BTW - very few of us are flies on the wall, so it's ALL speculative).

 

[Whileee]

- - have zero evidence positive or negative what the Jets offered. The point was their usage over 3 of him would negatively impact his ability to negotiate his contract value (potentially).

- How do you know Mark or his agent didn't complain privately? We don't know, so let's not speculate.

- I'm supporting Trouba? I guess you missed my post where I stated I'm just playing Devils Advocate. But if I was Trouba I would be presenting all these facts, stating my desire/expectations moving forward and how the teams usage better not negatively impact this contract.

There's more than enough speculation to go around. Fact is that Scheifele has been very open about wanting to be with the Jets long term, despite having had to go through the usual development process of playing down the line-up. I think Trouba has had plenty of opportunities in his first three seasons and the Jets value him highly. If he wants to stay they'll likely give him a generous long term contract. Of course he and his agent will want more than offered and cite lack of opportunity as one of their bargaining tactics; I would too. That doesn't mean that the Jets have necessarily sand-bagged him for contract purposes.

HFB will be much more pleasant after he's signed, or traded.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Kane said he asked for a trade every year, after he had the infamous incident and had been traded. While he was with the Jets he publicly said he was fine in Winnipeg. I wouldn't take his word as the most reliable.

Why would he need to ask for a trade every summer? Unless at some point he recinded his previous request.

 

[Hunter368]

The players have no issue using the CBA as a weapon when it's in their best interest as well. Was it reasonable for Hamhuise, Sundin etc to hold teams hostage when the org wanted to move on, but it was their right to accept a move or not due to what they negotiated. It goes both ways, I personally have no issue with Chevy using the CBA to his advantage.

I don't disagree with you the players do use it to their advantage often. So with the Jets management claiming they want to build a family environment here, is it best policy to use the CBA as a weapon in kind?

 

[Hunter368]

Kane said he asked for a trade every year, after he had the infamous incident and had been traded. While he was with the Jets he publicly said he was fine in Winnipeg. I wouldn't take his word as the most reliable.

Clearly he wasn't happy here from early on, we all know that. I would completely believe he is just being a good employee by saying he's ok here. At times he didn't even say that. All we know as fact is he asked for a trade 3 years in a row and Chevy never honored that request until forced to by the team itself.

 

[Skidooboy]

I don't disagree with you the players do use it to their advantage often. So with the Jets management claiming they want to build a family environment here, is it best policy to use the CBA as a weapon in kind?

Yes. It is.

If a player isn't on board with the "family environment" and is playing hardball you should indeed play hardball. Maximise the assets value. either for your orginisation and cap strategy, or to be enticing as a trade asset.

 

[Hunter368]

Why would he need to ask for a trade every summer? Unless at some point he recinded his previous request.

Hmmm, maybe b/c after each year nothing happened.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Hmmm, maybe b/c after each year nothing happened.

Or he lied? Or didn't tell the complete story?

 

[surixon]

I don't disagree with you the players do use it to their advantage often. So with the Jets management claiming they want to build a family environment here, is it best policy to use the CBA as a weapon in kind?

It's hard to know exactly how they use it when we don't get to see the behind the scenes stuff. Given that we haven't had much trouble retaining the majority of our key players as well as the positive comments from our players I would wager that most are happy/content with how they are being treated.

With regards to the family atmosphere there is always a balance. Chevy needs walk the line of treating his employees with respect while doing what's in the best interest for the organization as a whole. That doesnt mean Chevy should give and move people out juat because they want out. If he can accomodate them he should but being a push over isnt ideal in family situations either. Should a parent give in and buy the toy to appease a kid throwing a tantra tantrum?

 

[Huffer]

Great so what I'm getting at is that if these things (usage, playing time, etc) are the things holding up the negotiations, then Trouba/Overhardt are out of line.

I agree too. That's where I think that possibly the holdup is. Chevy can't really make those kinds of promises (nor should he).

 

[Hunter368]

Yes. It is.

If a player isn't on board with the "family environment" and is playing hardball you should indeed play hardball. Maximise the assets value. either for your orginisation and cap strategy, or to be enticing as a trade asset.

Just so I'm clear, you're saying b/c a player gives his GM 3+ years to fill his trade request (despite keeping it private for that entire time), the player is being unreasonable? Interesting POV, that I don't share with you.

 

[Hunter368]

Or he lied? Or didn't tell the complete story?

Speculation

Maybe Chevy is or has told lies as well. See speculation isn't helpful

 

[Whileee]

Clearly he wasn't happy here from early on, we all know that. I would completely believe he is just being a good employee by saying he's ok here. At times he didn't even say that. All we know as fact is he asked for a trade 3 years in a row and Chevy never honored that request until forced to by the team itself.

So, that would mean in the summer of 2012, 2013 and 2014 (he was traded early in 2015).

Yet, here is his agent in June 2012 responding to a report that Kane didn't want to re-sign in Winnipeg.

Mr. Oster says there is no truth to the report, and he plans to meet with Jets management this weekend in Pittsburgh regarding Evander Kane.

— Illegal Curve Hockey (@IllegalCurve) June 19, 2012

Later that summer he signed a 6 year contract with the Jets.

So, at most it was for two seasons that he was asking out, but we only have Kane's word for it, after a pretty sour parting with the Jets. Looks like Kane was either lying then (to the Jets), or after he was ostracized by team-mates and traded to Buffalo. I'm not sure Kane is the guy you want to back in terms of veracity.

2013 was after the abbreviated season, and a complete melt-down of the salary cap making it almost impossible to move a contract like Kane's to a contender (almost every team, including the Jets, were already up against the cap). 2014 was when Maurice had arrived, and I expect that the Jets started to earnestly look for trade opportunities. By February of that season he was gone.

 

[Hunter368]

It's hard to know exactly how they use it when we don't get to see the behind the scenes stuff. Given that we haven't had much trouble retaining the majority of our key players as well as the positive comments from our players I would wager that most are happy/content with how they are being treated.

With regards to the family atmosphere there is always a balance. Chevy needs walk the line of treating his employees with respect while doing what's in the best interest for the organization as a whole. That doesnt mean Chevy should give and move people out juat because they want out. If he can accomodate them he should but being a push over isnt ideal in family situations either. Should a parent give in and buy the toy to appease a kid throwing a tantra tantrum?

- The players in question to date as far as we know have had had issues with their lot on the team. So when given their usage they didn't have any issue, b/c they really haven't expected to move up in the lineup (exception Mark S). So I wouldn't expect much if any problems. Trouba situation is different.

- I totally agree with your second point within reason. You can't pander to employees wishes on a daily basis, but not filling a reasonable trade request within 3+ years isn't reasonable imo. If you truly believe Trouba is a big part of the team, let him be a big part and don't hold him back. Playing him with Stu for much of 3 years would be annoying to Trouba but he played ball without complaining (to our knowledge). But now he's without contract, so now he's totally within his rights to ask for these changes moving forward as part of the contract negotiations. Failing the team doing it, clearly he's not a big part in the teams future from their pov so trade him where he can be given a chance.

 

[Hunter368]

So, that would mean in the summer of 2012, 2013 and 2014 (he was traded early in 2015).

Yet, here is his agent in June 2012 responding to a report that Kane didn't want to re-sign in Winnipeg.



Later that summer he signed a 6 year contract with the Jets.

So, at most it was for two seasons that he was asking out, but we only have Kane's word for it, after a pretty sour parting with the Jets. Looks like Kane was either lying then (to the Jets), or after he was ostracized by team-mates and traded to Buffalo. I'm not sure Kane is the guy you want to back in terms of veracity.

2013 was after the abbreviated season, and a complete melt-down of the salary cap making it almost impossible to move a contract like Kane's to a contender (almost every team, including the Jets, were already up against the cap). 2014 was when Maurice had arrived, and I expect that the Jets started to earnestly look for trade opportunities. By February of that season he was gone.

Or your taking his words too literally, clearly he meant he had asked multi times over a long period of time. How many times do you make a general comment, not meaning it literally? Alot

 

[Hunter368]

Good chat, as I stated I'm just taking the Devils Advocate role here, hopefully some people are enjoying it. Just giving a players/agents POV at the moment.

Not all my comments are my personal views.

 

[Skidooboy]

Just so I'm clear, you're saying b/c a player gives his GM 3+ years to fill his trade request (despite keeping it private for that entire time), the player is being unreasonable? Interesting POV, that I don't share with you.

Where did I say that?

I said if someone wants to play hardball then the GM should play hardball right back.
Your statement indicated that playing hardball with one player would somehow undermine the family atmosphere TNSE is trying to foster.I see no reason that would be true. got any evidence to suopport your claim?

 

[surixon]

- The players in question to date as far as we know have had had issues with their lot on the team. So when given their usage they didn't have any issue, b/c they really haven't expected to move up in the lineup (exception Mark S). So I wouldn't expect much if any problems. Trouba situation is different.

- I totally agree with your second point within reason. You can't pander to employees wishes on a daily basis, but not filling a reasonable trade request within 3+ years isn't reasonable imo. If you truly believe Trouba is a big part of the team, let him be a big part and don't hold him back. Playing him with Stu for much of 3 years would be annoying to Trouba but he played ball without complaining (to our knowledge). But now he's without contract, so now he's totally within his rights to ask for these changes moving forward as part of the contract negotiations. Failing the team doing it, clearly he's not a big part in the teams future from their pov so trade him where he can be given a chance.

It may or may not have been reasonable. We have only heard one side of the story from a player with a growing list of incidents that to me call into question his level of maturity/professionalism. Whether fair or not I have a hard time trusting what he says. If Chevy did wait three years as has been stated by Kane than it probably was not that reasonable depending on if suitable offers were on the table.

We disagree with regards to Jets marginalizing his role, but don't disagree in that he wasn't given the best tools to fulfill it. I don't see anything wrong with Trouba bringing to light his long term personal goals during these negotiations as well as finding out how the Jets see his role evolving on the team moving forward. As a young professional myself I can relate to wanting to know if there is a fit between my career aspirations and how the company envisions my progression.

It's possible that Trouba and the Jets have a different idea of what his ideal role is on the team. If that is the case than there will likely have to be some compromise by one or both parties or it might be in both parties best interest to move on.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Speculation

Maybe Chevy is or has told lies as well. See speculation isn't helpful

There is so much speculation on this forum. You even speculated earlier today the Jets played Trouba with Stuart in order to affect his contract negotiations. You're take on Kane is speculation (the quote is real) I just don't know why he would specifically ask to be traded every summer. Just seems odd. Wouldn't he be having ongoing discussions with the GM? Wouldn't he follow up on progress? Why wait for the summer? Wouldn't first time be sufficient? Why would he have to keep repeating the request?It's all speculation.

 

[koth]

There is so much speculation on this forum. You even speculated earlier today the Jets played Trouba with Stuart in order to affect his contract negotiations. You're take on Kane is speculation (the quote is real) I just don't know why he would specifically ask to be traded every summer. Just seems odd. Wouldn't he be having ongoing discussions with the GM? Wouldn't he follow up on progress? Why wait for the summer? Wouldn't first time be sufficient? Why would he have to keep repeating the request?It's all speculation.

The summer would be the most appropriate time to ask for a trade. You don't want to ask for a trade during the season while you're in a dog fight with the rest of your teammates.

At least that's my take on it.

And I don't think Kane specifically asked for a trade. I think he told his agent he wanted to be traded and his agent then relayed that to Chevy.