Player Discussion Trent Frederic

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Frederic was as complementary a role player as I can think of last season. With or without factoring production. At times he had stretches and glimpses of a Coyle type possession style, and just as often vanished. He is no two way threat, does not carry the puck for zone entries or make plays himself. He has yet to determine his own identity and has reached his prime years.

This season will be extremely telling of what he truly is with Hall not on the opposing wing.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Frederic was as complementary a role player as I can think of last season. With or without factoring production. At times he had stretches and glimpses of a Coyle type possession style, and just as often vanished. He is no two way threat, does not carry the puck for zone entries or make plays himself. He has yet to determine his own identity and has reached his prime years.

This season will be extremely telling of what he truly is with Hall not on the opposing wing.

For the 1000th time, Hall was only on his wing for 188 minutes and Frederic’s performance was the same or better when it was someone else on his line.

 

[NDiesel]

For the 1000th time, Hall was only on his wing for 188 minutes and Frederic’s performance was the same or better when it was someone else on his line.

That's very intolerant of you

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

For the 1000th time, Hall was only on his wing for 188 minutes and Frederic’s performance was the same or better when it was someone else on his line.

I will spell this out more clearly.

When the opposing winger is 34 year old JVR.

It may be simply a case of lowered standards with Frederic for sake of optimism but one would think he was young Lucic with how desperately he is defended. Complementary. Complementary. Complementary.

Has a role on a historic team but will need to be more this season.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

I will spell this out more clearly.

When the opposing winger is 34 year old JVR.

It may be simply a case of lowered standards with Frederic for sake of optimism but one would think he was young Lucic with how desperately he is defended. Complementary. Complementary. Complementary.

Has a role on a historic team but will need to be more this season.

Well he did great when the third forward was AJ freaking Greer…

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

For the 1000th time, Hall was only on his wing for 188 minutes and Frederic’s performance was the same or better when it was someone else on his line.

After additional follow up, this is more misleading and apparently intentionally so.

"Only" 188 minutes was more than double the next combination. In terms of sample sizes, that is significant. The next two combinations were Zacha/Coyle with 93 minutes and Bertuzzi/Coyle with 91 minutes...

What this confirms is Frederic will need to prove himself this season to be more than a merely complementary role player playing with one or possibly two top six forwards in a bottom six role.

 

[LSCII]

It’s just that if you put the “anomaly” tag on any young player who makes a jump then every young player has hit his ceiling. Jack Hughes had 99 points last year - his previous high was 56. I’m guessing you don’t think 99 is an anomaly -
and of course Frederic is nowhere near Hughes - but it’s the same logic. Do you need to see Hughes prove it to you again?

Or a lesser example…Carter Verhaeghe went from a career high of 55 to 73 points with 42 goals last year. Is that an anomaly? Or is it a young player getting better?

Frederic is obviously a different class of player, but the magnitude is also way less. You’re using this kind of logic as a way to justify that you don’t like the player and never have. But who else gets the same treatment from you?

Until they do it again, yeah those are all outliers and anomalies, and I would absolutely need to see them score above 40 goals again before I expected 40 goals every year. Now you can make an argument that a player like CV (or JH) is on an upward trajectory given his consistent gains year over year for several seasons and that he's got a good shot at do it again given that track record. I'd also say that CV has consistently shot a percentage above 15% for his career, which would back up the trajectory theory. Which is unlike Freddy who had his shooting percentage jump dramatically compared to the rest of his seasons in the league. But until CV or JH does that again, those are outliers for their careers. If neither touches above 40 goals ever again, they're not a consistent 40 goal scorer, are they?

But again, why is it a problem to say this when its factually accurate? Freddy has had more seasons below 10 goals than he's had above it. That's just truth. I mean shit, when you've had one season with a career high of 31 points and that's more than half your actual career points, what does that mean to you? When you've had one season of 17 goals and again, that's more than half the career total, what does that say about the rest of his seasons?

That's very intolerant of you

I love this! I clearly touched a nerve calling it out, no?

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

After additional follow up, this is more misleading and apparently intentionally so.

"Only" 188 minutes was more than double the next combination. In terms of sample sizes, that is significant. The next two combinations were Zacha/Coyle with 93 minutes and Bertuzzi/Coyle with 91 minutes...

What this confirms is Frederic will need to prove himself this season to be more than a merely complementary role player playing with one or possibly two top six forwards in a bottom six role.

It’s not misleading. Frederic played 900 minutes even strength last year. 188 were with Taylor Hall.

 

[NDiesel]

I love this! I clearly touched a nerve calling it out, no?

Lol sure bud

 

[LSCII]

Lol sure bud

Rent free baaaaaaaaaaby!

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Until they do it again, yeah those are all outliers and anomalies, and I would absolutely need to see them score above 40 goals again before I expected 40 goals every year. Now you can make an argument that a player like CV (or JH) is on an upward trajectory given his consistent gains year over year for several seasons and that he's got a good shot at do it again given that track record. I'd also say that CV has consistently shot a percentage above 15% for his career, which would back up the trajectory theory. Which is unlike Freddy who had his shooting percentage jump dramatically compared to the rest of his seasons in the league. But until CV or JH does that again, those are outliers for their careers. If neither touches above 40 goals ever again, they're not a consistent 40 goal scorer, are they?

But again, why is it a problem to say this when its factually accurate? Freddy has had more seasons below 10 goals than he's had above it. That's just truth. I mean shit, when you've had one season with a career high of 31 points and that's more than half your actual career points, what does that mean to you? When you've had one season of 17 goals and again, that's more than half the career total, what does that say about the rest of his seasons?


I love this! I clearly touched a nerve calling it out, no?

If you don’t allow for any projection of growth - or credit for a year that saw a leap from a young player - then yeah, I guess. It’s just a pretty narrow way of looking at the world and renders your opinion of Frederic even more meaningless.

 

[LSCII]

It’s not misleading. Frederic played 900 minutes even strength last year. 188 were with Taylor Hall.

Nah, it is when you continue to include the adjective "only" to downplay the minutes when in reality, it's a lot more significant than your "only" moniker implies and is yet another example of the intellectual dishonesty around this discussion.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Nah, it is when you continue to include the adjective "only" to downplay the minutes when in reality, it's a lot more significant than your "only" moniker implies and is yet another example of the intellectual dishonesty around this discussion.

His numbers are the same regardless of who he played with. In fact better in some cases away from Hall. The only thing intellectually dishonest is for people to say he was carried by Hall on that line.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

From earlier I posted this:

 

[LSCII]

If you don’t allow for any projection of growth - or credit for a year that saw a leap from a young player - then yeah, I guess. It’s just a pretty narrow way of looking at the world and renders your opinion of Frederic even more meaningless.

Again, you say it's growth when a dude more than doubles his career outputs in one season, despite never showing much career growth to that point. I say that's an outlier until he does it again. The other examples you brought up all had steady growth year over year over year. Frederic did not. He went from a dude that would average about 10 points to over 30 in one shot. All while shooting over 14% despite averaging a percentage of 8 for his career up until last season. So what's the outlier here?

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

So what's the outlier here?

You

 

[LSCII]

You

We shall see, no? Solid response to the rest of what I said though, but I get it. Reality and his typical production doesn't support your view, so you can't really argue it.

 

[LSCII]

His numbers are the same regardless of who he played with. In fact better in some cases away from Hall. The only thing intellectually dishonest is for people to say he was carried by Hall on that line.

The only person pushing the Hall narrative is you. Take away Coyle and how does he look? Is Coyle going to be his center next year, or is Freddy going to play center, since you've called him a center many times despite most of his playing time being at wing? Those are all questions for next season and prime examples of your twisting of the facts to fit your narrative.

If Coyle gets elevated to a top 6 role, what does that mean for Freddy? If Freddy has to take on the extra responsibility of playing center, how will that impact his play?

 

[NDiesel]

The only person pushing the Hall narrative is you. Take away Coyle and how does he look?

Is that not you bringing up Hall, by asking about the other linemate?

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

Lol. There’s Hall commentary everywhere on Freddy and I’m the only one making it up. Ok.

 

[LSCII]

Is that not you bringing up Hall, by asking about the other linemate?

No, I was asking about whom he played with best and whom on the roster would fill that spot next season. Like I said there as well, you are all thinking I’m trying to set a trap for you when I was literally asking a question about who he’d work best with, and how to put him in the best possible spot to succeed.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

His numbers are the same regardless of who he played with. In fact better in some cases away from Hall. The only thing intellectually dishonest is for people to say he was carried by Hall on that line.

Not purely Hall... the fact the majority of the season Frederic played with Coyle (could be a 2C on lesser teams), and a confirmed top 6 winger in Zacha/Hall/Bertuzzi... in a 3rd line role. Would you argue that Frederic was not the complementary player with two far established/superior players? It simply must have some factor in your evaluation of Frederic, no? Clinging to the "Hall did not play 100% of Frederic's minutes" agenda indicates otherwise?

 

[KrejciMVP]

no the latest JAG of the week is not better than Hall or carried him on the 3rd line. Somebody should compare their playoff numbers this year

 

[tnt410]

Fun thread. Can people anchor their expectations--with the understanding that his performance will depend on utilization/health, what would people deem a successful 2024 season from Freddy?

 

[NDiesel]

no the latest JAG of the week is not better than Hall or carried him on the 3rd line. Somebody should compare their playoff numbers this year

No one is saying he carried Hall....the numbers do show he was just as good without Hall, you're free to take whichever conclusion from that, but it definitely isn't being said that he was carried.

The only argument I see in here is one side thinking he's crap and the other saying he's a good complementary piece who may progress further.