Training Camp Thread - First round of Cuts Made (10 players)

[The Winter Soldier]

Go back last two pages and see where did I use QoT? And see who brought QoT into the discussion.

Hint: It was you.

I only corrected you that projection does not = fact. And listed a few facts for you before you brought in the QoT.

Then I asked you a few questions which you conveniently ignored bringing in Kessel, Raymond and Lupul into dicussion and are now off to another tangent on defenseman.

Keep rising to the occasion.

I think pretty much everyone has an idea of the kind of poster you are.

#NoMoreDoubleStandards

This is the last time I am going to ask you. Is it good Dion or bad Dion?

You claimed player x had better QOT for D men and one of those D men player x played with was Dion Phaneuf.

Nothing to do with player x. But when you made that claim player X had good QOT for D men, did you stop and think of your posts in the Phaneuf thread of being less than flattery that Dion was a good D man last year? I can cite the quotes in this thread but that would not move this thread fwd, so I will just trust you to admit what you said in that thread didn't paint Dion in a good light.

Once again, you can't have it both ways. I don't think this will sink thru but shucks I gave it a try.

 

[diceman934]

Hockey is back, thankfully. Scrimmage, exhibition game or real games. I watch anything resembling a game.

In a few days when they sent the pylons and the never going to make it with them we can see some players play their way on to the team and off the team.

The decisions should show us if the Leafs are moving in a different direction or simply lip services about it.

 

[Parkdale]

Hockey is back, thankfully. Scrimmage, exhibition game or real games. I watch anything resembling a game.

In a few days when they sent the pylons and the never going to make it with them we can see some players play their way on to the team and off the team.

The decisions should show us if the Leafs are moving in a different direction or simply lip services about it.

Dion is going nowhere!

 

[leafstilldeath*]

This is the last time I am going to ask you. Is it good Dion or bad Dion?

You claimed player x had better QOT for D men and one of those D men player x played with was Dion Phaneuf.

Nothing to do with player x. But when you made that claim player X had good QOT for D men, did you stop and think of your posts in the Phaneuf thread of being less than flattery that Dion was a good D man last year? I can cite the quotes in this thread but that would not move this thread fwd, so I will just trust you to admit what you said in that thread didn't paint Dion in a good light.

Once again, you can't have it both ways. I don't think this will sink thru but shucks I gave it a try.

This is last time I am going to ask you, answer my queries and then I will answer your question.

You brought in the QoT, nowhere in my posts did I ever use QoT. Stop making up false stories.

#NoMoreDoubleStandards

 

[Semantics]

Bozak injured even before the season began. That fitness and conditioning though lol

Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhBpYXjDZpw

Kadri being the alpha male and cuddling up to Kessel, moving in and claiming his linemate while Bozak sits awkwardly on the side. I think we found out who our 1st line center is this year boys!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This is last time I am going to ask you, answer my queries and then I will answer your question.

You brought in the QoT, nowhere in my posts did I ever use QoT. Stop making up false stories.

#NoMoreDoubleStandards

Here is your post, you know what my reply is and was then. Instead you posted a bunch of unrelated things that had nothing to what I replied to, this is called obfuscation. I am not interested in getting into obfuscations. It's a very simple answer to my reply, are you citing Dion as a positive or negative for your QOT argument? No need to change the goalposts on the next post. This is what we were discussing and what my reply said was clear, what context are you referring to? Good QOT Dion or bad QOT Dion as your posts in the Phaneuf thread would seem to indicate? Post #613

You so conveniently disregarded the Ds, include as well : gives CONTEXT

Bozak's 3 line mates last year were Kessel, JVR, Lupul, D: Dion, Gunnar

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1733809&page=25

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Here is your post, you know what my reply is and was then. Instead you posted a bunch of unrelated things that had nothing to what I replied to, this is called obfuscation. I am not interested in getting into obfuscations. It's very simple answer to my reply and not try to change the goalposts on the next post. This is what we were discussing and what my reply was clear. Post #613



http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1733809&page=25

beofre you started to derail the discussion

this is what I said:

As far as I can tell, Kadri can and has done more for this team in the last 2 than Bozak. FYI, go ahead and calculate their PPG for the last 2 seasons

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89804805&postcount=607

To which your reply was:

I know you love to cite QOT

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89805003&postcount=609

Where in the blue hell, is the word "QoT" even used by me?

You have double standards and derail discussion when you are called out and proven wrong.

I simply asked you to calculate Kadri and Bozak's ppg for the last 2 seasons, instead you brought in QoT, Kessel, Raymond, Lupul and all the other unrelated things.

#NoMoreDoubleStandards

 

[The Winter Soldier]

beofre you started to derail the discussion

this is what I said:



http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89804805&postcount=607

To which your reply was:



http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89805003&postcount=609

Where in the blue hell, is the word "QoT" even used by me?

You have double standards and derail discussion when you are called out and proven wrong.

I simply asked you to calculate Kadri and Bozak's ppg for the last 2 seasons, instead you brought in QoT, Kessel, Raymond, Lupul and all the other unrelated things.

#NoMoreDoubleStandards

You said I did not take into account QOT for D when comparing players. Where both played with Kessel and Lupul BTW according to extra skater. Kadri also played with the 1st and 2nd highest scoring D men last season. Did you know?

Now either you say this as a positive for Dion or as a negative for him. Let's be honest, you said it to further your argument of player X having better teammates.

I am only asking why are you saying this now, when you said this in the Phaneuf thread.

That is precisely my problem. And the thing with Dion regressing in the last third of the season has been consistently going on since his time here not just last season

1, Phaneuf being here is yet to show any return to that investment

Your positions change with the narratives you argue. Can you see why posters would be confused?

 

[leafstilldeath*]

You said I did not take into account QOT for D.

Now either you say this as a positive for Dion or as a negative for him. Let's be honest, you said it to further your argument of player X having better teammates.

I am only asking why are you saying this now, when you said this in the Phaneuf thread.





Your positions change with the narratives you argue. Can you see why posters would be confused?

First calculate ppg for Kadri and Bozak for the last 2 seasons and post it. And I will reply to your post and analyze who is better and post it.

2nd, In terms of QoT, first knonw what it is, know how it is calculated and then I will engage you in a discussion of QoT.

In terms of analyzing a player:

from the Phaneuf thread:

For example, if one wants to analyze any player they have to use all the stats:

QoC, QoT, Corsi/Fenwick, relative Corsi/Fenwick, zone entries, zone exits, primary points on PP, zone starts, zone finish, blocked shots, etc.......

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89804103&postcount=180

A special message for you below:

#NoMoreLyingAndFalsifying

#NoMoreDoubleStandards

 

[The Winter Soldier]

First calculate ppg for Kadri and Bozak for the last 2 seasons and post it. And I will reply to your post and analyze who is better and post it.

2nd, In terms of QoT, first knonw what it is, know how it is calculated and then I will engage you in a discussion of QoT.

In terms of analyzing a player:

from the Phaneuf thread:



http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=89804103&postcount=180

A special message for you below:

#NoMoreLyingAndFalsifying

#NoMoreDoubleStandards

Do you not think the shortened season should be viewed with an asterisk. Kadri had 3 full months head start playing in the AHL. Did he not, did he not come back to earth the last 1/4 of the season.

Regardless it took him 74 games to reach Bozak's points total in 58 in a real 82 game season with no advantages to players. Otherwise you may as well see Mark Fraser as a +15 D man in a shortened season.

Again we want to know what our players are in a real 82 game season, not a 48 asterisk shortened strange season.

Now, back to your stonewalling.

What is it? Did you cite Dion as a positive for QOT or as a negative?

Did I get it right when I read your comment in the Dion thread.

Phaneuf being here is yet to show any return to that investment

 

[Nithoniniel]

Can we please keep the Bozak and Kadri discussion to the thread about Bozak and Kadri? The last pages are full off posts that are completely off topic.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Can we please keep the Bozak and Kadri discussion to the thread about Bozak and Kadri? The last pages are full off posts that are completely off topic.

This is why my posts were strictly on trying to get a clarification on Phaneuf.

 

[diceman934]

Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhBpYXjDZpw

Kadri being the alpha male and cuddling up to Kessel, moving in and claiming his linemate while Bozak sits awkwardly on the side. I think we found out who our 1st line center is this year boys!

That is a funny video. Bozak is out and Kadri in.....hell looking at Kessel in the Video he is going to need a center could can keep the puck until he gets in position....he is very out of shape!

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

That is a funny video. Bozak is out and Kadri in.....hell looking at Kessel in the Video he is going to need a center could can keep the puck until he gets in position....he is very out of shape!

You know Kessel doesn't pick who his center is right? Also can we stop saying Kessel is out of shape? It sure doesn't look it according to the scrimmage/fitness tests, the guy is a world class athlete, he's not the bloody pillsbury doughboy.

 

[Purity*]

I know you love to cite QOT, Kadri's 3 line mates last year were Kessel, Lupul, and Raymond according to extrakater.com. Let's not rehash this, I think we both know each answers by now.

Kadri had a revolving door of linemates consisting of Lupul, Raymond, Kulemin, Kessel, Clarkson, JVR... complete mess of linemates whereas Bozak had a consistent set of JVR and Kessel all the way through.

Hopefully Kadri's got his linemates right from day 1, chemistry is a big part production in today's NHL. It can take time to develop, hell Bozak's been with Kessel for almost 4 years now, maybe he finally develops the chemistry to break 50 points this year?

 

[diceman934]

You know Kessel doesn't pick who his center is right? Also can we stop saying Kessel is out of shape? It sure doesn't look it according to the scrimmage/fitness tests, the guy is a world class athlete, he's not the bloody pillsbury doughboy.

The center comment was a joke....The comment about him being out of shape sadly is not....you look at the video and tell me he looks like a world class athlete....as far as his fitness test goes you have no idea on how he scored on the tests nor do I....but my guess would be not very good judging by his appearance in that video as well as his assistant coaches comments.

 

[X66]

I believe it was reported by Mark Masters that Kessel actually did very well on the on-ice tests, leading the pack in many of them.

No one should ever be worried about Kessel, he knows his body more than anyone. Some of the biggest fitness freaks in the league don't amount to much and are some are often injury prone.

 

[sommervr]

You know Kessel doesn't pick who his center is right? Also can we stop saying Kessel is out of shape? It sure doesn't look it according to the scrimmage/fitness tests, the guy is a world class athlete, he's not the bloody pillsbury doughboy.

He's actually both at the same time. The puny classifications of mortals have no meaning to The Phil

 

[namttebih]

Knowing Carlyle, we probably will have one of Orr or Mclaren around. I really don't care for the goon tags, Orr is at least defensively responsible. And it won't matter who is on the 4th line anyway with 6mins of ice time a game unless we are suddenly rolling 4 lines.

I heard an interview with DN on Thursday from the MC Centre claiming that the fourth line will play "8, 10, 12 minutes a night"

 

[King85Kong]

Do you not think the shortened season should be viewed with an asterisk. Kadri had 3 full months head start playing in the AHL. Did he not, did he not come back to earth the last 1/4 of the season.

Regardless it took him 74 games to reach Bozak's points total in 58 in a real 82 game season with no advantages to players. Otherwise you may as well see Mark Fraser as a +15 D man in a shortened season.

Again we want to know what our players are in a real 82 game season, not a 48 asterisk shortened strange season.

Now, back to your stonewalling.

What is it? Did you cite Dion as a positive for QOT or as a negative?

Did I get it right when I read your comment in the Dion thread.

What's with the excuses for Bozak. The shorten season counts all the same. Does this past season not count for Bozak cause he only played 58 games? Any time something goes in Kadri's favour, you come up with excuses. Ya it took the 74 game for Kadri to hit 50 points. Still something Bozak has never achieved. Bozak is the new Matt Stajan.

Kadri had a revolving door of linemates consisting of Lupul, Raymond, Kulemin, Kessel, Clarkson, JVR... complete mess of linemates whereas Bozak had a consistent set of JVR and Kessel all the way through.

Hopefully Kadri's got his linemates right from day 1, chemistry is a big part production in today's NHL. It can take time to develop, hell Bozak's been with Kessel for almost 4 years now, maybe he finally develops the chemistry to break 50 points this year?

This is always ignored. People say oh Kadri's top 3 linemates last year were Lupul, Raymond, Kessel, while ignoring the fact he played with a lot of other players. He didn't have the same luxury as Bozak who played majority of the time with JVR and Kessel.

 

[Gamble9]

anyone like the chemistry between of the JVR Kadri Frattin line as much as I did in limited viewing obviously but seemed like they worked well together. also I think Ashton and Holland have good chemistry as well if our top six looks like
Lupul / Bozak / Kessel
JVR / Kadri / Frattin
I'd really like to give a bottom six that looks like
Ashton / Holland / Clarkson
Komorov / Kontiola / Winnik a shoot to see what we have in Ashton while playing him with talent and minutes before going with the older guard in booth and Santo do you think the best players will shake out be damned or are ashton and frattin penciled in as replacement guys already

 

[Mess]

Knowing Carlyle, we probably will have one of Orr or Mclaren around. I really don't care for the goon tags, Orr is at least defensively responsible. And it won't matter who is on the 4th line anyway with 6mins of ice time a game unless we are suddenly rolling 4 lines.

If by Orr/McLaren you mean Troy Bodie then you might be right.

Bodie is big and physical and can fight, but also good enough of a hockey player to play 10 minutes a night in a 4th line role.

Clarkson & Bodie is the new version of Orr/McLaren as the team has evolved beyond just knuckle dragging goons that can't play.

 

[Gamble9]

only problem I have with bodie fighting is that he doesn't win he trades well and doesn't seem to get badly beaten but his balance is bad so he always seems to be on the wrong end of the fight if he makes "my" team it would be because of his ability to bang and cycle because I don't like his ability to face punch I really just hope the best players make the team

 

[X66]

Bodie is a underrated commodity. I was very impressed with his mobility.

JVR-Kadri-Frattin has me intrigued, two bulls around Kadri could make for an exciting line.

 

[Gamble9]

Bodie is a underrated commodity. I was very impressed with his mobility.

JVR-Kadri-Frattin has me intrigued, two bulls around Kadri could make for an exciting line

I like that he understands his game as well where some players in a roll like that just skate around attempting to hit people and if the cycle a bit so be it .

And I hope they give us a look at that line tomorrow night. The excitement is building lol