Training Camp 2023

[freakydallas13]

Who cares?

Strong stance for someone posting lengthy diatribes trying to defend this team.

Who cares about ND?

Oh damn, a double dip.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Who cares about ND? He played 9 minutes a night last season at 5x5, he'll probably play less this season. He's a legacy contract, but he's not blocking anyone with real talent.

legacy contract lol.

Well you are the one who said if you cant beat him then you should be in the ahl. Players do not get a chance is what matters therefore ND plays.

Rather those 9 minutes got to someone who may have a future role. Which could lead to more minutes. The excuses you make leave me baffled.

 

[deadhead]

The house is on fire but you're worried about a drip from the kitchen sink!

 

[tnfrs]

off topic but look at how long bedard's stick is, caufield is 5'7 and bedsy's stick is pretty bang on, maybe even a bit taller, bedsy's only 5'10 so his stick is cut to his forehead when hes not on skates. it always seemed like he was using a longer stick and I bet thats why the toe drag is such a big part of his shot, load up a alot more flex

 

[Evergreen]

Came here to discuss training camp, but I guess everyone here is still just arguing about fringe players from seasons past.

 

[deadhead]

legacy contract lol.

Well you are the one who said if you cant beat him then you should be in the ahl. Players do not get a chance is what matters therefore ND plays.

Rather those 9 minutes got to someone who may have a future role. Which could lead to more minutes. The excuses you make leave me baffled.

I don't want a prospect playing a few shifts a period and sitting most of the time, especially if he's a younger prospect who'd benefit by playing 15-20 minutes a night in LHV in all roles.

And right now, I don't know Lycksell is any better than Deslauriers, that 4th line looked good early in TC playing as the "second line." Would they be better with Lycksell or Allison at LW? Haven't seen it so far. Maybe as Allison gets comfortable on his off side. Lycksell is better suited to a top 9 role if he's good enough to win one.

And I don't want a player like Desnoyers (21) playing 8-9 minutes a night when he could be in the top 6 in LHV working on his skill package instead of chasing the puck on the 4th line.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tenacious forecheckers bang bodies along the boards, how the heck do you think you keep the cycle going? Winning board battles is one key to puck possession at both ends of the ice.

I'm not going to claim the Flyers had a great development process, note that Fletcher successfully lobbied for more resources and Briere has continued that trend. Which tells you how clueless Holmgren and Hextall were as GMs, since Flyers had the cash flow to do this a decade ago.

But it's obvious the primary problem was the refusal to rebuild and accumulate draft picks, Hextall did it for one year then stopped. The second problem was mediocre drafting when they did have picks, two top ten picks Provorov and Patrick, missed 1st and 2nd rd picks in Rubtsov, JOB, Ratcliffe, Laberge et al. Development and pro scouting was more a matter of not finding and developing hidden gems.

So far, Briere has turned this trend around. We'll see if he continues to add draft picks and young players. They've increased their investment in development resources, they've made a number of changes to scouting (hopefully they'll develop a pro scouting group that's competent).

The Phillies had a couple false starts when they revamped their organization, but the last few years they stopped missing on 1st rd picks, started developing players like Rojas and are finally getting an influx of youth. Money helps in baseball, but as the Mets show, it ain't enough.

So I'll be patient with Briere, I expect some mistakes, just want him to learn from his mistakes and not repeat them.

Torts has a long history of turning teams around by playing young players - but he doesn't play youth just b/c they're there, he wants young players who can play. He'll live with mistakes of commission but not those of omission (lack of effort, inability to learn or be coached).

As far as Staal, etc. Who cares? Most will be gone in a couple years, and if you can't outplay Deslauriers or Staal, you should be in the AHL. I'm more focused on the AHL, b/c I want to see prospects dominate at lower levels and force promotions, not be gifted them.

There's more to forechecking effectively than board grinding and keeping the puck deep. Like, establishing and maintaining a cycle. Which, for some reason, the Flyers do not want their 4th liners doing. Too skilled, I guess.

As for your last paragraph, the team is not run on merit. Young players are currently better than Staal but they won't be allowed to play over him. You should be acutely aware of this given how annually you identify youth who are better than the shitty veterans, and you proclaim that they will play. And then they don't.

 

[Rebels57]

off topic but look at how long bedard's stick is, caufield is 5'7 and bedsy's stick is pretty bang on, maybe even a bit taller, bedsy's only 5'10 so his stick is cut to his forehead when hes not on skates. it always seemed like he was using a longer stick and I bet thats why the toe drag is such a big part of his shot, load up a alot more flex

Please stop saying "bedsy."

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Came here to discuss training camp, but I guess everyone here is still just arguing about fringe players from seasons past.

Don’t be ridiculous. We’re having the same exact discussion about the current fringe players.

I’m so tired of what this org has done to the fanbase.

 

[tnfrs]

Please stop saying "bedsy."

https://media.tenor.com/6TiKnH5kh9oAAAAM/11.gif

idk how to do gifs

 

[blackjackmulligan]

I don't want a prospect playing a few shifts a period and sitting most of the time, especially if he's a younger prospect who'd benefit by playing 15-20 minutes a night in LHV in all roles.

And right now, I don't know Lycksell is any better than Deslauriers, that 4th line looked good early in TC playing as the "second line." Would they be better with Lycksell or Allison at LW? Haven't seen it so far. Maybe as Allison gets comfortable on his off side. Lycksell is better suited to a top 9 role if he's good enough to win one.

And I don't want a player like Desnoyers (21) playing 8-9 minutes a night when he could be in the top 6 in LHV working on his skill package instead of chasing the puck on the 4th line.

play tanner or allison in place of ND. Simple as that.

You can also play a "kid" 4th line. doesnt have to be in the flyers brand of traditional 4th line in 2023.

Would you rather have torts and his staff teaching them or cement head in LHV?

There's more to forechecking effectively than board grinding and keeping the puck deep. Like, establishing and maintaining a cycle. Which, for some reason, the Flyers do not want their 4th liners doing. Too skilled, I guess.

As for your last paragraph, the team is not run on merit. Young players are currently better than Staal but they won't be allowed to play over him. You should be acutely aware of this given how annually you identify youth who are better than the shitty veterans, and you proclaim that they will play. And then they don't.

what young players would have been playing what 18 minutes a night in the playoffs?

it isn't a matter of being "better" as that is debatable if they are currently. They should be playing over him however seeing where the flyers are at and supposedly "rebuilding".

 

[Beef Invictus]

play tanner or allison in place of ND. Simple as that.

You can also play a "kid" 4th line. doesnt have to be in the flyers brand of traditional 4th line in 2023.

Would you rather have torts and his staff teaching them or cement head in LHV?


what young players would have been playing what 18 minutes a night in the playoffs?

it isn't a matter of being "better" as that is debatable if they are currently. They should be playing over him however seeing where the flyers are at and supposedly "rebuilding".

TOI is an indicator of coach biases, not of quality.

 

[deadhead]

Don’t be ridiculous. We’re having the same exact discussion about the current fringe players.

I’m so tired of what this org has done to the fanbase.

Why people get so excited by fringe players is beyond my comprehension.
Replace Deslauriers with Allison for 9 minutes a night and what?
Replace Walker on the 3rd pair with Attard and you'll deep six Walker's trade value for what?

Someone like Andrae is a different matter, I might start him in LHV b/c I want him to get more comfortable with NA ice and I want him to be PP1 QB there while I look at York and Sanheim in that role in the NHL. When I bring him up for good (mid-season), it'll be to play a lot more than Seeler's 14 minutes a night.

Same with Foerster or Brink, I'd rather the loser play on the 1st line in LHV than the 4th line in the NHL - and the winner gets 3rd line minutes (which will probably be evenly spread across the top 3 lines).

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Why people get so excited by fringe players is beyond my comprehension.
Replace Deslauriers with Allison for 9 minutes a night and what?
Replace Walker on the 3rd pair with Attard and you'll deep six Walker's trade value for what?

Someone like Andrae is a different matter, I might start him in LHV b/c I want him to get more comfortable with NA ice and I want him to be PP1 QB there while I look at York and Sanheim in that role in the NHL. When I bring him up for good (mid-season), it'll be to play a lot more than Seeler's 14 minutes a night.

Same with Foerster or Brink, I'd rather the loser play on the 1st line in LHV than the 4th line in the NHL - and the winner gets 3rd line minutes (which will probably be evenly spread across the top 3 lines).

We’ve had this discussion multiple times.

Fringe players are more illustrative of the competency of the implementation of an org’s plan. There are exceptions, of course. But most teams get the big stuff right. No one is shuffling Couturier down the lineup or sending York down. In effect, they’re predictive stats, not descriptive ones.

 

[deadhead]

We’ve had this discussion multiple times.

Fringe players are more illustrative of the competency of the implementation of an org’s plan. There are exceptions, of course. But most teams get the big stuff right. No one is shuffling Couturier down the lineup or sending York down. In effect, they’re predictive stats, not descriptive ones.

Most prospects are fringe players.
The ones that count are the ones with top 6/top 4 potential.
Solid middle six guys, #5 D-men have value, but that should be the floor for higher draft picks..
Bottom six, #6/#7 guys are fungible. Good scouts can find these guys on waivers, low cost FAs.

Most picks after #40 never come close to top 6/top 4 status.
Which is why you're right that with 2nd to 4th rd picks, go for upside, you can get bodies in the 5th to 7th rounds to fill out a roster and populate your AHL team, why settle for earlier in the draft.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Ersson officially won the backup job. Heard it from the guy the horse kicked’s mouth.

 

[GKJ]

 

[captainpaxil]

I just don't see it with lacinski Allison is a guy who should play over d-lo. I understand the idea of keeping him around to give the young guys confidence but you don't chance a guy who can be a real player to waiversf to it an enforcer

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Most prospects are fringe players.
The ones that count are the ones with top 6/top 4 potential.
Solid middle six guys, #5 D-men have value, but that should be the floor for higher draft picks..
Bottom six, #6/#7 guys are fungible. Good scouts can find these guys on waivers, low cost FAs.

Most picks after #40 never come close to top 6/top 4 status.
Which is why you're right that with 2nd to 4th rd picks, go for upside, you can get bodies in the 5th to 7th rounds to fill out a roster and populate your AHL team, why settle for earlier in the draft.

You're worried about the chances of an individual prospect making it. I'm talking about proper management of an organization.

To me, saying "the ones that count" is the sign of a loose, sloppy ship. We can do better than that.

 

[orangey]

That's cool. Good for him to get a NHL job.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Why people get so excited by fringe players is beyond my comprehension.
Replace Deslauriers with Allison for 9 minutes a night and what?
Replace Walker on the 3rd pair with Attard and you'll deep six Walker's trade value for what?

Someone like Andrae is a different matter, I might start him in LHV b/c I want him to get more comfortable with NA ice and I want him to be PP1 QB there while I look at York and Sanheim in that role in the NHL. When I bring him up for good (mid-season), it'll be to play a lot more than Seeler's 14 minutes a night.

Same with Foerster or Brink, I'd rather the loser play on the 1st line in LHV than the 4th line in the NHL - and the winner gets 3rd line minutes (which will probably be evenly spread across the top 3 lines).

what do you think are the possible outcomes? With ND you pretty much only have 1.

So if Seeler is the 7th dman is his trade value deep sixed?

 

[flyersnorth]

FWIW, Charlie said on yesterday's pod that in his talk with Jones, he recognized the organization has not had great success at developing players, and they are focused on changing that. They have started by letting some people go, hiring new people, and looking at resources as well.

 

[deadhead]

You're worried about the chances of an individual prospect making it. I'm talking about proper management of an organization.

To me, saying "the ones that count" is the sign of a loose, sloppy ship. We can do better than that.

The "ones that count" are the ones where you prioritize long-term development.

Someone like Allison, who at 26 is not part of a rebuild (durability, age, upside) can be yo-yo'd, exposed on waivers, if you can't find a trade partner, etc.
Someone like Foerster is being groomed for a starting spot, whether this year or next year.

Development at the AHL level is more valuable for the second tier guys who might surprise, the top guys simply shouldn't be there that long - but maybe you can teach Attard defense or Grans to be more consistent. If I were judging development it would be how often are they able to take a 2nd tier guys and turn them into useful NHL players after a couple seasons in the AHL. Of course, if you have mostly 3rd tier guys, you're asking for miracles.

 

[bennysflyers16]

The house is on fire but you're worried about a drip from the kitchen sink!

Lineup LOCKS aren't a dripping sink.

And as we all have told you Staal and Seeler are both locks while youth who EARNED a spot are not

 

[Audible Velvet]

FWIW, Charlie said on yesterday's pod that in his talk with Jones, he recognized the organization has not had great success at developing players, and they are focused on changing that. They have started by letting some people go, hiring new people, and looking at resources as well.

At least there’s some recognition of that from them. I have no faith that they get this right though.