Training Camp 2023

[Gert B Frobe]

Why does every thread on this board devolve into multi-paragraph posts intimating "Damn the Flyers suck and have sucked as long as I can remember"?

Don't they have new management and some decent prospects including Gauthier and Michkov? Yes they will still likely suck or are at least pretty bad, but things are looking up aren't they? Tell me how it's all the same shit or worse. In just a few sentences please. Enough of these novels for f***'s sake I have a job.

I never said it was. At all. Try reading.

Dude stop

I'm not sure I understand your first point, are you saying that these guys would be better elsewhere, or are you saying that they were never going to be good anywhere?

As to the second part, I will gladly run through a list, but first I just want to see if this is going to be one of those things when I list the players who developed as you would expect/hope and you say that they don't count because of whatever reason is convenient (they are good but would be better elsewhere, the Flyers accidentally developed them, the Flyers tried to destroy them but failed, they weren't good here (even though we said they were at the time) and only got better after they left, etc. etc. etc. ). Just a quick sneak preview, there were at least 9 guys I can think of off the top of my head that played for this team just last year that have been developed by the Flyers who I think we all agree have turned into or are in the process of turning into the players we hoped/expected them to be.

This shouldn't be construed as an endorsement of the Flyers drafting and development. It isn't. They are not the best and probably not even in the top half. They have problems in every aspect of how this team is run and how they function on and off the ice. We don't need to make up narratives as to why this happens. There doesn't have to be a pinpoint reason and oftentimes when you drill down there are multiple reasons. None of those reasons are they hate small players or they hate young players.


Lol, you mean to tell me a low-end NHL player had a brief increase in success when he went from one of the worst teams in the league to the Stanley Cup Chamions. No. I just can't believe it. The only answer is that the Flyers botched his development. I can't think of any other reason why a guy from a bottom of the barrell team would do better on the literal best team in the league.

Didn't read a word of that

Sorry but you kids need f***ing hobbies.

 

[Gert B Frobe]

Sanheim Laughton and Konecny at the Phillies game tonight drinking beers.

 

[pooch]

Sanheim Laughton and Konecny at the Phillies game tonight drinking beers.

I like beers too.

 

[tnfrs]

Sanheim Laughton and Konecny at the Phillies game tonight drinking beers.

i wonder if Konecny wishes Krug was there instead

 

[Beef Invictus]

But that's not a development issue, that's a usage. If I am using Nik Zherdev on the PK instead of Sean Couturier, that isn't bad development or some conspiracy to hurt young or small or skilled players.

Not to mention, of course, this was after a career high of 22 points with Colorado, a number that he failed to meet the following years with worse teams. So it's weird that it wasn't because he went to a SC winning team that he had this anomaly of a season where he essentially doubles his career high then reverts to his old ways when he leaves that team.

Seems again more like they dropped the ball in drafting him over some other selection.

Usage is a massive part of development. They were trying to turn him into a different player contrary to his skillsets. We can see the same thing with Allison where they've decided they want him to fill their archaic idea of a 4th liner and all they want him doing is grinding the boards.

 

[captainpaxil]

It came after Colorado (Bednar, specifically I believe) came out and openly said that they knew NAK was being used incorrectly in Philly, they identified what they believed his skillset was, and said they would employ him to that skillset's strengths. It wasn't just "Oh it's a better team," it was "A smarter team has identified a mistake and fixed it to their and the player's advantage." They did a deliberate thing. Nothing chance about it.

This is just a longwinded wayi of saying he found a better fit in both linemates and system which is the kind of combination a marginal player needs to succeed.

 

[volnoir]

This is just a longwinded wayi of saying he found a better fit in both linemates and system which is the kind of combination a marginal player needs to succeed.

That's just good coaching. You don't try and force players to be something they are not, you work with what you have and derive a system that works based on your players. That was AV's big problem. Torts, does he even have a system beyond "hard work"?

 

[deadhead]

So you want Allison, who can't pass worth a damn, and has good but not special shot, to be on a scoring line? Who exactly is he going to play over? Farabee, Atkinson, TK, Tippett, Brink, Foerster, Laughton.

Allison is best playing north south and using his body. He's not a "skill" player.
career 75g 12-9 21 at ES, that's 4th line scoring, including his hot cameo two years ago.
Last year played primarily with Hayes, then Cates and Frost at center. Not on the 4th line.

If he can show he can play LW, could push for some PT.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This is just a longwinded wayi of saying he found a better fit in both linemates and system which is the kind of combination a marginal player needs to succeed.

Ah no. It's saying the Flyers were getting it wrong on a fundamental level. Something they do often.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So you want Allison, who can't pass worth a damn, and has good but not special shot, to be on a scoring line? Who exactly is he going to play over? Farabee, Atkinson, TK, Tippett, Brink, Foerster, Laughton.

Allison is best playing north south and using his body. He's not a "skill" player.
career 75g 12-9 21 at ES, that's 4th line scoring, including his hot cameo two years ago.
Last year played primarily with Hayes, then Cates and Frost at center. Not on the 4th line.

If he can show he can play LW, could push for some PT.

Read closer. I said they want Allison to be their archaic and shitty idea of a 4th liner, not that I want him in a scoring line. They wanted the same thing from NAK.

 

[tnfrs]

colorado thought so highly of aube-kubel they didnt dress him for the last 3 games of the playoffs and he played a total of 32 minutes in 4 games out of the last 2 series which was a total of 10 games between edmonton and tbay. sounds like NAK was holding us bak the whole time tbh

 

[deadhead]

Read closer. I said they want Allison to be their archaic and shitty idea of a 4th liner, not that I want him in a scoring line. They wanted the same thing from NAK.

Why do teams keep getting rid of NAK, 4 teams in 3 years.

Allison is best using his body (but not being stupid like skating into the boards trying to hit someone) and go north south, when he tried to be cute last year, he was turnover city (bad cross ice passes leading to odd man rushes the other way).

You want a more skillful 4th line, you want guys like Allison, or Poehling and Hathaway (last two seasons 14-11 and 13-8 at ES playing mostly 4th line minutes). But these kind of players generate their points off the forecheck, forcing turnovers and being opportunistic. Same with NAK, who was stiff handling the puck, had a good shot but didn't belong higher in the lineup.

Watch Foerster v Allison and the difference is obvious.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Why do teams keep getting rid of NAK, 4 teams in 3 years.

Allison is best using his body (but not being stupid like skating into the boards trying to hit someone) and go north south, when he tried to be cute last year, he was turnover city (bad cross ice passes leading to odd man rushes the other way).

You want a more skillful 4th line, you want guys like Allison, or Poehling and Hathaway (last two seasons 14-11 and 13-8 at ES playing mostly 4th line minutes). But these kind of players generate their points off the forecheck, forcing turnovers and being opportunistic. Same with NAK, who was stiff handling the puck, had a good shot but didn't belong higher in the lineup.

Watch Foerster v Allison and the difference is obvious.

And yet again you've gone on a tangent unrelated to any points I'm making.

 

[VladDrag]

Petersen and Laczynski on waivers

Laczynski has been better than Allison this preseason…I won’t be upset losing him but it just doesn’t make sense.

 

[VladDrag]

But that's not a development issue, that's a usage.

Development = usage.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Why does every thread on this board devolve into multi-paragraph posts intimating "Damn the Flyers suck and have sucked as long as I can remember"?

Don't they have new management and some decent prospects including Gauthier and Michkov? Yes they will still likely suck or are at least pretty bad, but things are looking up aren't they? Tell me how it's all the same shit or worse. In just a few sentences please. Enough of these novels for f***'s sake I have a job.


Dude stop


Didn't read a word of that

Sorry but you kids need f***ing hobbies.

They do not have new management. It's the same people as before.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Why does every thread on this board devolve into multi-paragraph posts intimating "Damn the Flyers suck and have sucked as long as I can remember"?

Don't they have new management and some decent prospects including Gauthier and Michkov? Yes they will still likely suck or are at least pretty bad, but things are looking up aren't they? Tell me how it's all the same shit or worse. In just a few sentences please. Enough of these novels for f***'s sake I have a job.


Dude stop


Didn't read a word of that

Sorry but you kids need f***ing hobbies.

I can get down with some of this, and I think there are hopeful signs to sit alongside the dismal ones. I'm still gonna write a novel, though.

Getting the angst out the way:

1. they're still signing old refuse (Staal) or solid depth that they don't really need (Hathaway), which does legitimately limit roster space for younger talent
2. the lack of Holmgren/Clarke blood sacrifice was disappointing. the camera kept cutting to Homer in the suite goofing with Keith Jones the other night, dispiriting.
3. the defense remains a black hole and I don't think the pipeline is in place to fix that yet.
4. Tortorella
5. a lot of Fletcher's mistakes are still on the books: lingering roster garbage like Risto; the ghost of Ellis; and Couturier and Sanheim's likely-unfortunate contracts.
6. for the good reasons I mention after this, they're probably boxing themselves out of a top 5 pick again.

with that out of the way, in my mind, there is a lot more to look forward to now than there has been the past few years.

1. Briere seems to acknowledge past problems in a diplomatic way. Asked about the dramatic expansion of their skills development staff the other night, he seemed to indicate that it had been lacking in the past and that the job isn't to just make good picks, but to have people with a plan to develop them into useful players. To me it was a subtle indictment of the previous administration, and a signal that there would be more intent and effort there going forward.
2. Briere, despite his ? signings, has made some decent plays and seems to understand the route ahead. I think the Provorov trade was a home run. I think shedding DeAngelo and Hayes by any means was a good thing to do.
3. The forward pipeline is actually really f***ing good. Frost and Tippett on the roster are real-deal top 6 players. Brink could be, dare I say, a star. Foerster has shown us good things. Gauthier is a machine, whether we want to pretend he isn't or not, and Michkov is the best prospect in the world (the second Bedard plays his first game). They need a stud C though.
4. They removed a handful of players I found legitimately painful to watch (Provorov, Hayes, JVR, DeAngelo) and some or most of their time will now go to younger, more interesting players.
5. As much hot air and bullshit as he blows, I actually do believe Tortorella right now on the principle that players are allowed to make plays. This preseason, I've seen defensemen more confidently driving low, forwards making more audacious passes in the neutral zone, and some genuine swagger/fire from the likes of Frost and Brink. See how it holds up in the regular, but offensively this bunch seems to be allowed to let it rip right now.
6. The defense will be such a shitshow that it will help their draft position, and it will probably allow a lot of guys to get a look.
7. We don't know the power dynamic between Briere and Torts yet, but I have a hunch that Torts has a boss now. Maybe a weak, first-time boss, but at least someone with a more defined, solid plan than the last guy, and the power to set an agenda for player deployment.
8. It can't get worst than it was. There's really no way to dig a deeper hole than Fletcher did.

An I "excited" for this season? I kinda think I am. I know they will suck and lose a lot of OT games and Torts will say dumb shit and I'll see more Marc Staal than I ever wanted to.

But I also am intrigued to see Frost get 60 points, and Brink tear it up, and Konecny try to continue his sick pace. I'm glad Couturier is back and I enjoy watching smart players make smart plays, even though he looks dramatically slower than he used to.

I'm excited to see York grow, to see Sanheim FINALLY get his PP time and hopefully get his confidence back. I hope we get a good look at Zamula or Andrae--I think both get a sustained look and one is an everyday player.

It's hockey. It's supposed to be fun. Based on the roster turnover, it's pretty clear to me that there will be more fun and interesting hockey this year compared to last, even if they aren't "good."

tl;dr: Briere isn't as dumb as the last guy or as irritating as the guy before, and a lot of their young talent is actually interesting this time around.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Usage is a massive part of development. They were trying to turn him into a different player contrary to his skillsets. We can see the same thing with Allison where they've decided they want him to fill their archaic idea of a 4th liner and all they want him doing is grinding the boards.

re: NAK, is Washington messing up his development too? He seems to have reverted to the same kind of player he was here. It's almost like maybe playing on the top team in the NHL maybe had more of an impact than any developmental issues. If we drill down to "usage" rather than the overarching term of "development" I think maybe the fact that he was used on a team with significantly better players caused him to have a better season. I honestly don't know how he did in Washington last year from a "usage" standpoint but if they were using him better and he still produced like he did here, maybe it's possible just that he was never that good? Like maybe drafting plays a big role here too.

re: Allison, I'm not sure what role you want him to fill? I am not going to pretend to be a Wade Allison expert, but looking at his output throughout his career in the minors, juniors, and NCAA, he doesn't appear to have a been a prolific goal scorer or playmaker. Just reading scouting reports from 2016 it sounds like he was a bad skating power forward who will win battles in the corner...in other words a typical grinder. What should be his development track? What did you expect from him?

Maybe I am missing the point entirely here. I agree with you the Flyers suck at development (among other things), but is the expectation that you have for the Flyers to be able to turn garbage prospects into stars? Are we talking about having late round picks contribute regularly? What is the bar you are hoping for?

 

[Curufinwe]

Why do teams keep getting rid of NAK, 4 teams in 3 years.

There are only two teams who got rid of NAK.

First was the 21-22 Flyers when he ran afoul of AV who preferred to play trash like MacEwen and Thompson on the 4th line. Of course, AV was fired a month later, and then the GM who fired AV was himself fired 15 months later. In terms of appealing to authority, you can't sink much lower.

Colorado happily took advantage of the Flyer's folly and got 22 points out of NAK in 67 regular season games, and played him in 14 of their 20 playoff games. Being very tight to the cap next season they didn't have room for him in 22-23 while signing their top PKers Cogliano and Helm to $1.25m deals. It's very amusing to me that any Flyer fan would try and claim that NAK getting the 10th most ES minutes on the Cup Champions is some kind of black mark against his career, especially considering some of the absolute garbage we have watched play on the Flyers 4th lines in the past two seasons.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Toronto were the 2nd team to get rid of NAK. Not sure what the issue was there (maybe his lack of ability of kill penalties was a factor), but Washington took advantage of it and got 12 points in 47 games out of him before extending him at 1 x $1.225m. Less money and less term than the glorified mascot, Deslauriers, who will be dragging the Flyers fourth line down for three more years.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Why does every thread on this board devolve into multi-paragraph posts intimating "Damn the Flyers suck and have sucked as long as I can remember"?

Don't they have new management and some decent prospects including Gauthier and Michkov? Yes they will still likely suck or are at least pretty bad, but things are looking up aren't they? Tell me how it's all the same shit or worse. In just a few sentences please. Enough of these novels for f***'s sake I have a job.


Dude stop


Didn't read a word of that

Sorry but you kids need f***ing hobbies.

Sounds like you do as well if you're here complaining about people complaining, karen

 

[Beef Invictus]

re: NAK, is Washington messing up his development too? He seems to have reverted to the same kind of player he was here. It's almost like maybe playing on the top team in the NHL maybe had more of an impact than any developmental issues. If we drill down to "usage" rather than the overarching term of "development" I think maybe the fact that he was used on a team with significantly better players caused him to have a better season. I honestly don't know how he did in Washington last year from a "usage" standpoint but if they were using him better and he still produced like he did here, maybe it's possible just that he was never that good? Like maybe drafting plays a big role here too.

re: Allison, I'm not sure what role you want him to fill? I am not going to pretend to be a Wade Allison expert, but looking at his output throughout his career in the minors, juniors, and NCAA, he doesn't appear to have a been a prolific goal scorer or playmaker. Just reading scouting reports from 2016 it sounds like he was a bad skating power forward who will win battles in the corner...in other words a typical grinder. What should be his development track? What did you expect from him?

Maybe I am missing the point entirely here. I agree with you the Flyers suck at development (among other things), but is the expectation that you have for the Flyers to be able to turn garbage prospects into stars? Are we talking about having late round picks contribute regularly? What is the bar you are hoping for?

?? He's been fine in Washington.

I object entirely to the idea of set roles. Just get the most out of each player. Foster their strengths. Allison was a feisty, tenacious forechecker like NAK, who could drive offensive possession and help create chances. Like they did with NAK he's been reduced to just banging bodies around the boards before just banging the puck around the boards.

 

[macleish1974]

re: NAK, is Washington messing up his development too? He seems to have reverted to the same kind of player he was here. It's almost like maybe playing on the top team in the NHL maybe had more of an impact than any developmental issues. If we drill down to "usage" rather than the overarching term of "development" I think maybe the fact that he was used on a team with significantly better players caused him to have a better season. I honestly don't know how he did in Washington last year from a "usage" standpoint but if they were using him better and he still produced like he did here, maybe it's possible just that he was never that good? Like maybe drafting plays a big role here too.

re: Allison, I'm not sure what role you want him to fill? I am not going to pretend to be a Wade Allison expert, but looking at his output throughout his career in the minors, juniors, and NCAA, he doesn't appear to have a been a prolific goal scorer or playmaker. Just reading scouting reports from 2016 it sounds like he was a bad skating power forward who will win battles in the corner...in other words a typical grinder. What should be his development track? What did you expect from him?

Maybe I am missing the point entirely here. I agree with you the Flyers suck at development (among other things), but is the expectation that you have for the Flyers to be able to turn garbage prospects into stars? Are we talking about having late round picks contribute regularly? What is the bar you are hoping for?

Sorry there is no answer to your questions, just more questions until you come upon the rabbit hole. So do as I do, believe there is some magic in this world. Enjoy that there is an invention called Ice Hockey. And enjoy that there is Flyer's hockey. If you look at it in those terms, then everything else is so trivial. If you worry about the things you cannot control, why worry? Want to change the world join Green Peace.



One of the songs in summer of 1965

John Sebastian, also wrote the theme song, "Welcome Back Kotter"



Alvin Lee was a great guitarist.

 

[deadhead]

Tenacious forecheckers bang bodies along the boards, how the heck do you think you keep the cycle going? Winning board battles is one key to puck possession at both ends of the ice.

I'm not going to claim the Flyers had a great development process, note that Fletcher successfully lobbied for more resources and Briere has continued that trend. Which tells you how clueless Holmgren and Hextall were as GMs, since Flyers had the cash flow to do this a decade ago.

But it's obvious the primary problem was the refusal to rebuild and accumulate draft picks, Hextall did it for one year then stopped. The second problem was mediocre drafting when they did have picks, two top ten picks Provorov and Patrick, missed 1st and 2nd rd picks in Rubtsov, JOB, Ratcliffe, Laberge et al. Development and pro scouting was more a matter of not finding and developing hidden gems.

So far, Briere has turned this trend around. We'll see if he continues to add draft picks and young players. They've increased their investment in development resources, they've made a number of changes to scouting (hopefully they'll develop a pro scouting group that's competent).

The Phillies had a couple false starts when they revamped their organization, but the last few years they stopped missing on 1st rd picks, started developing players like Rojas and are finally getting an influx of youth. Money helps in baseball, but as the Mets show, it ain't enough.

So I'll be patient with Briere, I expect some mistakes, just want him to learn from his mistakes and not repeat them.

Torts has a long history of turning teams around by playing young players - but he doesn't play youth just b/c they're there, he wants young players who can play. He'll live with mistakes of commission but not those of omission (lack of effort, inability to learn or be coached).

As far as Staal, etc. Who cares? Most will be gone in a couple years, and if you can't outplay Deslauriers or Staal, you should be in the AHL. I'm more focused on the AHL, b/c I want to see prospects dominate at lower levels and force promotions, not be gifted them.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

still talking about the almighty NAK. He was let go by 3 teams. If the flyers only kept him who knows what path the team may be on right now. Add him to the long list of players the flyers ruined.

Tenacious forecheckers bang bodies along the boards, how the heck do you think you keep the cycle going? Winning board battles is one key to puck possession at both ends of the ice.

I'm not going to claim the Flyers had a great development process, note that Fletcher successfully lobbied for more resources and Briere has continued that trend. Which tells you how clueless Holmgren and Hextall were as GMs, since Flyers had the cash flow to do this a decade ago.

But it's obvious the primary problem was the refusal to rebuild and accumulate draft picks, Hextall did it for one year then stopped. The second problem was mediocre drafting when they did have picks, two top ten picks Provorov and Patrick, missed 1st and 2nd rd picks in Rubtsov, JOB, Ratcliffe, Laberge et al. Development and pro scouting was more a matter of not finding and developing hidden gems.

So far, Briere has turned this trend around. We'll see if he continues to add draft picks and young players. They've increased their investment in development resources, they've made a number of changes to scouting (hopefully they'll develop a pro scouting group that's competent).

The Phillies had a couple false starts when they revamped their organization, but the last few years they stopped missing on 1st rd picks, started developing players like Rojas and are finally getting an influx of youth. Money helps in baseball, but as the Mets show, it ain't enough.

So I'll be patient with Briere, I expect some mistakes, just want him to learn from his mistakes and not repeat them.

Torts has a long history of turning teams around by playing young players - but he doesn't play youth just b/c they're there, he wants young players who can play. He'll live with mistakes of commission but not those of omission (lack of effort, inability to learn or be coached).

As far as Staal, etc. Who cares? Most will be gone in a couple years, and if you can't outplay Deslauriers or Staal, you should be in the AHL. I'm more focused on the AHL, b/c I want to see prospects dominate at lower levels and force promotions, not be gifted them.

when are you going to understand that is not hw it work in flyer land. ND should not be in the top 12 on the flyers. That is a fact.

 

[deadhead]

still talking about the almighty NAK. He was let go by 3 teams. If the flyers only kept him who knows what path the team may be on right now. Add him to the long list of players the flyers ruined.


when are you going to understand that is not hw it work in flyer land. ND should not be in the top 12 on the flyers. That is a fact.

Who cares about ND? He played 9 minutes a night last season at 5x5, he'll probably play less this season. He's a legacy contract, but he's not blocking anyone with real talent.