Training Camp 2023

[Beef Invictus]

Let's also not forget the converse...if a Flyers prospect does make it is only by accident and overcoming the conspiracy to ruin young players' careers by not playing young players (except for the ones they do play which is by accident). Same thing with small guys. Any small guys the Flyers have is accidental because they only care about size and don't draft or play small players (except for the ones they do play or draft which is by accident).

Do you think a development process that de-emphasizes skill at every turn will produce skill on its own? Explain to me how a process that doesn't build skills should get credit for building skills. Because that doesn't make any sense at all.

The Flyers focus on defense, dump and grind, and physicality. That's it. And that's why we see players routinely regress, as we've been watching Allison do and others before him. Any skills that develop beyond those focuses are extra-curricular.

Also of note: every single time you have gone to bat for the team and doubted these easy-to-see observations, you've ended up being wrong in the end. These things you insist aren't real or don't matter always end up being real and mattering. It's time to consider that people here are rational.

 

[dragonoffrost]

i wasnt even that big on zamula and brink until this camp and now ill probably be disappointed if they dont make the team, im already excited feels good

Get used to disappointment...

It's the Flyers way

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Do you think a development process that de-emphasizes skill at every turn will produce skill on its own? Explain to me how a process that doesn't build skills should get credit for building skills. Because that doesn't make any sense at all.

The Flyers focus on defense, dump and grind, and physicality. That's it. And that's why we see players routinely regress, as we've been watching Allison do and others before him. Any skills that develop beyond those focuses are extra-curricular.

Also of note: every single time you have gone to bat for the team and doubted these easy-to-use observations, you've ended up being wrong in the end.

I'm not going to bat for this team. They suck from top to bottom inside and out. But it isn't because of the secret conspiracies to ruin young players. They draft poorly, they develop poorly, they play poorly, and so forth and so on. But despite what HFBoard posters think, they aren't sitting in a room saying, "no no no, we can't play small players" or "no, no, no, we mussn't have young players on the roster!" You can say that I am wrong all the time about this, but year in and year out there are a laundry list of examples of young players playing and small players playing.

They 100% suck at drafting and development but it is not because the organization it trying to ruin players by telling them not to be good or preventing young or small players from playing or being drafted. If that were the case, they wouldn't routinely draft or play small players and play young players in their lineup. They may not play the young players YOU want them to play or the small players YOU want them to play, but there isn't a secret conspiracy to play only old or big players. I am certain you can point to times where a player you wanted to play (or draft) didn't play (or get drafted) and that player may have been smaller or younger than another player, but for each one of those examples there is another example of a small or young player getting a chance to play.

 

[tnfrs]

Get used to disappointment...

It's the Flyers way

ive seen this team make mistakes my whole life,

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm not going to bat for this team. They suck from top to bottom inside and out. But it isn't because of the secret conspiracies to ruin young players. They draft poorly, they develop poorly, they play poorly, and so forth and so on. But despite what HFBoard posters think, they aren't sitting in a room saying, "no no no, we can't play small players" or "no, no, no, we mussn't have young players on the roster!" You can say that I am wrong all the time about this, but year in and year out there are a laundry list of examples of young players playing and small players playing.

They 100% suck at drafting and development but it is not because the organization it trying to ruin players by telling them not to be good or preventing young or small players from playing or being drafted. If that were the case, they wouldn't routinely draft or play small players and play young players in their lineup. They may not play the young players YOU want them to play or the small players YOU want them to play, but there isn't a secret conspiracy to play only old or big players. I am certain you can point to times where a player you wanted to play (or draft) didn't play (or get drafted) and that player may have been smaller or younger than another player, but for each one of those examples there is another example of a small or young player getting a chance to play.

Actually their horrible development priorities have a LOT to do with why they suck. When you get the least out of everything you draft, it's going to be the problem. You need the draft to succeed. You can't just Holmgren your way to Cups.

Also, think about how many times they draft a small player and then spend all their time obsessing over their size. They aren't just size queens, they're dumb enough to think it can be taught.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Nobody thinks that. There are specific cases where it seems to be the case though. For example, Myers, who had such a number done on him here that Nashville publicly commented on it.

it's called saving face on Nashville's end.

The flyers did not ruin Myers in any way shape or form. Remember what AV said about him several times?

Yes people do think that.

 

[Curufinwe]

I admit that I have spent many hours participating in futile arguments on this board, but I gotta say that Phil Myers is really not worth discussing anymore.

 

[Jettany]

ya im starting to notice that around here

Egos get in the way. No one wants to admit they were wrong about their beloved prospect...same goes when their hated prospect turns into a player.

 

[Curufinwe]

What do you guys think of the new Athletic Flyers writer?

Sean Couturier 'feeling good' in return to Flyers: 'The best he’s looked'

The Flyers’ top-line center has missed the last season and a half after undergoing two back surgeries.

theathletic.com

 

[Beef Invictus]

There is a cognitive aspect of hockey the Flyers just fully ignore from top to bottom that is even more crippling than their sneering at the act of creativity. It's systemic pond hockey out there, and that's what prospects are raised into. Pro hockey features planned plays off faceoffs, on entries, during cycles. At least, the well-run teams do. And when you watch those teams enough you'll start spotting some of those signature plays. Those teams aren't doing them on accident. Those are skills they have built and practiced. And because hockey is so fluid, it does take deliberate coaching to get everyone on the same page with their reads of the situations to ensure things go smoothly more often than not.

There is none of that with the Flyers. That's why you can watch any line on Carolina or Colorado enter the zone using similar drop passes with picks and ensuing looks, but even the top 6 here makes similar attempts look like a debacle. These are skills that require building. The sport has become chess, and the Flyers are building checkers players. That's why I laugh at the idea of their prospects flatlining elsewhere being proof that it isn't the Flyers fault; those guys have been trained to play pond hockey and are so far behind everyone else. They're trained to play checkers, no wonder chess teams aren't finding use for them...and then there's always someone new waiting behind them that doesn't have to unlearn what they were taught.

These plays and systems benefit highly skilled and talented players by creating space and opportunities for them. But those are also players who can straight-up beat dudes 1 on 1 anyway. The most benefit of those skills is reaped by the depth guys. The guys who aren't going to win out 1-on-1 as much. Buying them the time and space helps them a lot. The Flyers don't do that. They don't teach it. They don't even try it. It's straight up ooga booga EFFORT hockey top to bottom. They do nothing to help their developed players win. Lappy has no clue what he's doing, Gordon before him didn't, and Tortorella also openly admits that he doesn't get it and also isn't bothering to coach at that level of detail anyway. And so they get as little as possible out of everyone they "grow."

 

[deadhead]

Colorado had 51 ES goals last season from all their bottoms six forwards combined.
Flyers had 42 ES goals last season from their bottom 5 (choose your #7 forward, Hayes 12 goals or Laughton 10 goals or Cates 9 goals).

So Flyer bottom six forwards scored as much as Colorado's, despite NOT playing with Makar, Toews or Girard.

Maybe the difference between the two teams wasn't development or scheme but talent?

 

[BillDineen]

Prospects that "play the right way" get an easier path than primarily offense skilled prospects. If you are skilled, unless you blow their socks off, they make it unproductively difficult. Even tk was dicked around after becoming an all-star (same with ghost).

 

[Beef Invictus]

Colorado had 51 ES goals last season from all their bottoms six forwards combined.
Flyers had 42 ES goals last season from their bottom 5 (choose your #7 forward, Hayes 12 goals or Laughton 10 goals or Cates 9 goals).

So Flyer bottom six forwards scored as much as Colorado's, despite NOT playing with Makar, Toews or Girard.

Maybe the difference between the two teams wasn't development or scheme but talent?

Cates wasn't a bottom six forward or a depth forward. This is intensely dishonest, and you know what you're doing. This is a deliberate lie.

There's also more to success as a depth forward than raw scoring. You know that. You've just elected to pretend you don't get that nuance to defend the Flyers.

 

[Tripod]

It's so f***ing bizarre to me that anyone can defend the development of Flyers prospects. If it was good, where are they all? Why did the team just add their entire 4th line via UFA? Can't even trust themselves to develop 4th line depth.

 

[deadhead]

Cates wasn't a bottom six forward or a depth forward. This is intensely dishonest, and you know what you're doing. This is a deliberate lie.

There's also more to success as a depth forward than raw scoring. You know that. You've just elected to pretend you don't get that nuance to defend the Flyers.

I said choose your 7th forward, note they all scored around 10 ES goals, that is, add to the bottom five and you have the same production as the Colorado bottom six. So kiss your speculation goodbye.

Colorado plays better offense b/c they have some elite offensive forwards and two elite offensive defensemen. It's that simple. No conspiracy theories required. When you have talented forwards and D-men, the defense backs off and you have more room to make those cute plays.

Yes, you play it safe with Laughton and Cates and Allison and . . . because they're not very good at zone entries - in fact few current Flyers are. That's talent.

It's so f***ing bizarre to me that anyone can defend the development of Flyers prospects. If it was good, where are they all? Why did the team just add their entire 4th line via UFA? Can't even trust themselves to develop 4th line depth.

Good question. Where are they? They're not on other teams, like so many players who change teams and thrive - did Florida screw up Tippett? How come he scored 27 goals with the Flyers?

The idea that one or two seasons in the AHL/NHL can permanently ruin a player is silly, hockey isn't rocket science, if a player has talent and is coachable, he can figure it out with a team that's better at coaching up talent. If no player leaves you and improves, Occam's razor says talent is the problem.

 

[Magua]

What do you guys think of the new Athletic Flyers writer?

Sean Couturier 'feeling good' in return to Flyers: 'The best he’s looked'

The Flyers’ top-line center has missed the last season and a half after undergoing two back surgeries.

theathletic.com

It’s absolute drivel you’d be just as likely to read in a newspaper.

 

[Curufinwe]

Petersen and Laczynski on waivers

 

[freakydallas13]

Petersen and Laczynski on waivers

Waive Tanner because they had to sign Hathaway and Nicky D has a roster spot gifted to him.

Wonderous.

 

[flyers0909]

It’s absolute drivel you’d be just as likely to read in a newspaper.

Where else am I going to read about preseason faceoff percentage?

 

[deadhead]

Waive Tanner because they had to sign Hathaway and Nicky D has a roster spot gifted to him.

Wonderous.

Tanner is 26 and has shown no signs of being anything more than a marginal NHL player, better players have been waived the last couple days. He was outplayed by a wide margin by Poehling, who is 24. Odds are he'll make it to LHV to join Marody (26) and Gardner (25).

 

[freakydallas13]

Tanner is 26 and has shown no signs of being anything more than a marginal NHL player, better players have been waived the last couple days. He was outplayed by a wide margin by Poehling, who is 24. Odds are he'll make it to LHV to join Marody (26) and Gardner (25).

If only the powers that be had given him enough meaningful play time to know for sure what he is.

Oh well, I look forward a rebuilding roster heavy with veteran presence too valuable to play without.

 

[Rebels57]

Waive Tanner because they had to sign Hathaway and Nicky D has a roster spot gifted to him.

Wonderous.

Tanner will probably hurt himself going through waivers.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Actually their horrible development priorities have a LOT to do with why they suck. When you get the least out of everything you draft, it's going to be the problem. You need the draft to succeed. You can't just Holmgren your way to Cups.

Also, think about how many times they draft a small player and then spend all their time obsessing over their size. They aren't just size queens, they're dumb enough to think it can be taught.

Again, development is absolutely an issue. No one is defending that. There is no question about that. This "development priorities" of which you speak is a perfectly ambiguous term that you can toss around to pretend like there is some "root cause" to this because John Tortarella is old school or Bobby Clarke is still there or they hired Keith Jones or whatever. I assume that "development priorities" means small players are bad and skilled players are bad and there is a need to teach small players to be bigger and slower and skilled players to be slower and more physical, but that narrative falls apart when you look at the smaller and more skilled players that they have. Yes, I know that Frost got paid less than Cates and that proves it the other skilled players we have are just there by accident (also the smaller players we have are not wanted because they traded Ghost and traded for Risto).

Same thing with drafting. Their drafting sucks as bad as their development sucks. You can't look at this team and say they aren't getting everything out of their players so their development sucks when they are actually developing players. You also can't say they are prirotizing size or lack of skill when they are routinely picking small and skillful players. Yes, sometimes they pick big guys or more defensive players or what have you, but that doesn't negate the other players they are drafting or signing.

The NAKs, Myers, Ginnings, Rubstovs, etc. of the world wouldn't be doing any better than they are currently had they gone elsewhere or at least there is nothing you can legitimately point to that would support this fact. Again, for every one of the failures there is a success story. If you go back starting in 2019 you have examples of guys developing exactly into what we thought they would. There are also guys that did not turn out how we wanted. Guys who suffered injuries that maybe would have turned out differently. This team sucks right now because they have failed to draft and have failed to develop (among other things). There is no rule that says we have to pinpoint one single reason that this team sucks and we don't have to invent narratives about the team only liking big players or old players or hating skill or whatever you want to pretend is going on. They can just suck because they suck.

 

[Magua]

NAKs, Myers, Ginnings, Rubstovs

Not a single one of these players has anything in common with their post-draft years. It's like grouping South Korea, Liechtenstein, Suriname, and Greece to make a point about the world economy.

Again, for every one of the failures there is a success story.

I’d love to hear who is defined as a “success story” by product of development.

 

[freakydallas13]

Not a single one of these players has anything in common with their post-draft years. It's like grouping South Korea, Liechtenstein, Suriname, and Greece to make a point about the world economy.



I’d love to hear who is defined as a “success story” by product of development.

Pre-cancer Lindblom?

That's about all I got.