Training Camp 2023

[GKJ]

They aggressively thought he was AHL ready 2 years ago because he skated fast sometimes. At least they learned from their mistakes.

Whatever you think about the process, I think they just didn’t/don’t trust the Finnish system (or any European), and that decision was a function of that. Remember, he was the first Finnish player they had drafted in like 15 years. And then, they must not have liked the situation in Sudbury because he was drafted there and once it was evident he was struggling, never opted to send him there (unless he didn’t want to as part of the terms of him signing). There was also still Covid to think about.

Him not being able to crack a SM-liiga roster, I don’t know, it’s really difficult for young players to make that happen and then it’s harder for them to get a role you want. They have barely any solid relationships with any of these teams and we see they’re hiring coaches independently, which is another thing that I don’t know how that works. The scout who was on him as we know was a brand new hire.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Mobile. RHD. Big shot.
Needs to learn how to anticipate better. Improve stick work. There’s something there with him. Doubt that the Flyers will draw it out of him.

seems to be getting a good look.Time will tell. Hopefully he forces their hand while in LHV

 

[deadhead]

Can you remind me again who on this forum called him a "unicorn" once a day? And said he was the highest ceiling defender in the organization after his rookie year? Better than Sanheim for sure.

I also have this vague recollection of the current POHO drooling about Myers being a "star."

I don't think this suits your argument like you think it does!

That was four years ago? When Myers looked good his first season with Sanheim, a few mistakes but solid overall - then the league watched film, realized you could pressure him into mistakes, and it's been a downward spiral ever since.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

That was four years ago? When Myers looked good his first season with Sanheim, a few mistakes but solid overall - then the league watched film, realized you could pressure him into mistakes, and it's been a downward spiral ever since.

flyers ruined him

 

[tnfrs]

flyers ruined him

wasnt phillipe myers undrafted? it means nothing that the development team couldnt turn him into a top pairing D, players go undrafted for a reason, he was a lemon that the flyers took a chance on. not every player who can skate can be an NHL defenseman

 

[Magua]

Whatever you think about the process, I think they just didn’t/don’t trust the Finnish system (or any European), and that decision was a function of that. Remember, he was the first Finnish player they had drafted in like 15 years. [....] Him not being able to crack a SM-liiga roster, I don’t know, it’s really difficult for young players to make that happen and then it’s harder for them to get a role you want.

If this is the case, then it's a concerning outlook on their part. The Finnish system is arguably THE smoothest professional development league for 17-19 year olds. That's the thing: it is not difficult for young players to make that happen. They move prospects up to Liiga quickly and with proper usage. They prioritize it - it's not the KHL. Even in Sweden, good prospects regularly play 2nd tier pro. No prospect worth a damn ever touches the 2nd tier Finnish league after their draft year, and often not even then.

Ville Koivunen was drafted a handful of spots below Tuomaala, was in the Karpat junior system with him (outproducing him), and was instantly putting up 30 points in 50 games in his D+1. 3 different organizations in 2 years did not think Tuomaala was a Liiga player. If I drafted Tuomaala 1 pick above the CHL Player of the Year, I'd likely also rationalize it as being a Liiga issue and not a player issue. But Tuomaala's entire draft case (and now camp case) is based around a flashy tool and small samples.

Fletcher/Flahr drafted Finnish players in Minnesota, so that angle doesn't really make sense either. Liiga isn't some mystery.

 

[deadhead]

If this is the case, then it's a concerning outlook on their part. The Finnish system is arguably THE smoothest professional development league for 17-19 year olds. That's the thing: it is not difficult for young players to make that happen. They move prospects up to Liiga quickly and with proper usage. They prioritize it - it's not the KHL. Even in Sweden, good prospects regularly play 2nd tier pro. No prospect worth a damn ever touches the 2nd tier Finnish league after their draft year, and often not even then.

Ville Koivunen was drafted a handful of spots below Tuomaala, was in the Karpat junior system with him (outproducing him), and was instantly putting up 30 points in 50 games in his D+1. 3 different organizations in 2 years did not think Tuomaala was a Liiga player. If I drafted Tuomaala 1 pick above the CHL Player of the Year, I'd likely also rationalize it as being a Liiga issue and not a player issue. But Tuomaala's entire draft case (and now camp case) is based around a flashy tool and small samples.

Fletcher/Flahr drafted Finnish players in Minnesota, so that angle doesn't really make sense either. Liiga isn't some mystery.

Liiga isn't a mystery, but I'll bet 18 year old Finnish players are - I'd be double checking the scout(s) who recommended him. The raw skills are there, but scouts are supposed to research things like character, hockey IQ, coachability, etc.

It's much easier say to get a read on an 18 year old with a full season in Allsvenskan, for example.

 

[BernieParent]

Who will write the novels in the PGTs?

At all the organizations I have been a member of, the person who asks is the person volunteering.

 

[tnfrs]

At all the organizations I have been a member of, the person who asks is the person volunteering.

kinda like the smelt it dealt it rule?

 

[GKJ]

If this is the case, then it's a concerning outlook on their part. The Finnish system is arguably THE smoothest professional development league for 17-19 year olds. That's the thing: it is not difficult for young players to make that happen. They move prospects up to Liiga quickly and with proper usage. They prioritize it - it's not the KHL. Even in Sweden, good prospects regularly play 2nd tier pro. No prospect worth a damn ever touches the 2nd tier Finnish league after their draft year, and often not even then.

Ville Koivunen was drafted a handful of spots below Tuomaala, was in the Karpat junior system with him (outproducing him), and was instantly putting up 30 points in 50 games in his D+1. 3 different organizations in 2 years did not think Tuomaala was a Liiga player. If I drafted Tuomaala 1 pick above the CHL Player of the Year, I'd likely also rationalize it as being a Liiga issue and not a player issue. But Tuomaala's entire draft case (and now camp case) is based around a flashy tool and small samples.

Fletcher/Flahr drafted Finnish players in Minnesota, so that angle doesn't really make sense either. Liiga isn't some mystery.

Fletcher only drafted 4 players out of Finland with the Wild, one of them was Granlund who was obviously a high profile player (and playing in that league in his draft year). Two were nobodies, and none of them before 2014, so that’s six years between making picks, so it’s unknown how . But at the very least, the Wild had a presence in Finland for a time, while the Flyers did not until their first full season here, which was Fletcher’s first here, so we’re also likely talking about limited lions with a scout they had only just hired. Then they put Sami Kapanen on the actual payroll, officially as a coach, and he does know the system probably more than almost anyone they would find to be in that role, so that’s why I say I don’t think they trusted what they’re doing there.

I also wonder if their rationale is such that - they had Granlund before, as I said was at the top. They drafted Kahkonen, who doesn’t come over until he’s 23. They think if he makes it pro that he doesn’t want to come over until he can bypass the AHL. Right now we would’ve taken that. But we know they thought (still do!) they were too smart to leave him there. You look at their drafting record, it was so many North Americans (specifically USA), it seemed evident that they didn’t trust any European system.

 

[Magua]

Liiga isn't a mystery, but I'll bet 18 year old Finnish players are...

They're not. No more than any other player. I watched Tuomaala at the u18s; I remember thinking he lacked hockey IQ then. He had a productive u18s on paper, you can see the shiny toy aspects about his game in snippets, and they bought into it over a season sample. Look, the Canadiens last year did the same thing with a 1st overall pick. It's bad process.

Tuomaala, right now, has to have a singularly unique path to the NHL. I'm not sure it has ever been done before. We know where you stand overvaluing his Mestis numbers. So, we'll see, won't we?

Fletcher only drafted 4 players out of Finland with the Wild, one of them was Granlund who was obviously a high profile player (and playing in that league in his draft year). Two were nobodies, and none of them before 2014, so that’s six years between making picks, so it’s unknown how . But at the very least, the Wild had a presence in Finland for a time, while the Flyers did not until their first full season here, which was Fletcher’s first here, so we’re also likely talking about limited lions with a scout they had only just hired. Then they put Sami Kapanen on the actual payroll, officially as a coach, and he does know the system probably more than almost anyone they would find to be in that role, so that’s why I say I don’t think they trusted what they’re doing there.

I also wonder if their rationale is such that - they had Granlund before, as I said was at the top. They drafted Kahkonen, who doesn’t come over until he’s 23. They think if he makes it pro that he doesn’t want to come over until he can bypass the AHL. Right now we would’ve taken that. But we know they thought (still do!) they were too smart to leave him there. You look at their drafting record, it was so many North Americans (specifically USA), it seemed evident that they didn’t trust any European system.

It's not the Belarusian pro leagues. It's Finland -- one of the most scouted leagues in the world and a big NHL feeder. Again, they give their teenagers as clear a path as anyone. That Tuomaala flopped post-draft doesn't have to be a conspiracy. I'll point out someone like Aatu Raty had a poor experience with Karpat and instantly turned it around in another organization. Tuomaala was on his 3rd. But I didn't draft the guy, so I don't have to justify his failings like Flahr. They viewed him as ready to jump to the AHL in 2021, so I think we can sense they have a warped perspective on him.

 

[GKJ]

They're not. No more than any other player. I watched Tuomaala at the u18s; I remember thinking he lacked hockey IQ then. He had a productive u18s on paper, you can see the shiny toy aspects about his game in snippets, and they bought into it over a season sample. Look, the Canadiens last year did the same thing with a 1st overall pick. It's bad process.

Tuomaala, right now, has to have a singularly unique path to the NHL. I'm not sure it has ever been done before. We know where you stand overvaluing his Mestis numbers. So, we'll see, won't we?



It's not the Belarusian pro leagues. It's Finland -- one of the most scouted leagues in the world and a big NHL feeder. Again, they give their teenagers as clear a path as anyone. That Tuomaala flopped post-draft doesn't have to be a conspiracy. I'll point out someone like Aatu Raty had a poor experience with Karpat and instantly turned it around in another organization. Tuomaala was on his 3rd. But I didn't draft the guy, so I don't have to justify his failings like Flahr. They viewed him as ready to jump to the AHL in 2021, so I think we can sense they have a warped perspective on him.

Top 20 on their board

 

[BernieParent]

kinda like the smelt it dealt it rule?

I now have to get this into the minutes of our church's annual vestry meeting.

 

[deadhead]

They're not. No more than any other player. I watched Tuomaala at the u18s; I remember thinking he lacked hockey IQ then. He had a productive u18s on paper, you can see the shiny toy aspects about his game in snippets, and they bought into it over a season sample. Look, the Canadiens last year did the same thing with a 1st overall pick. It's bad process.

Tuomaala, right now, has to have a singularly unique path to the NHL. I'm not sure it has ever been done before. We know where you stand overvaluing his Mestis numbers. So, we'll see, won't we?



It's not the Belarusian pro leagues. It's Finland -- one of the most scouted leagues in the world and a big NHL feeder. Again, they give their teenagers as clear a path as anyone. That Tuomaala flopped post-draft doesn't have to be a conspiracy. I'll point out someone like Aatu Raty had a poor experience with Karpat and instantly turned it around in another organization. Tuomaala was on his 3rd. But I didn't draft the guy, so I don't have to justify his failings like Flahr. They viewed him as ready to jump to the AHL in 2021, so I think we can sense they have a warped perspective on him.

"The 18 year-old Tuomaala expressed interest in playing professionally this season instead of playing junior hockey, so the Flyers initially sent him to the Phantoms during training camp instead of the Ontario Hockey League. Tuomaala has only appeared in two games for Lehigh Valley, as he has been healthy scratched eight times. The Flyers wanted to give Tuomaala a chance to get more ice time but still fulfill his professional wishes, so they opted to send him to his home country and play in their top men’s league."

Taking skills at #46 is a lot different than at #22, Tuomaala has a clear path to the NHL if he learns to utilize his speed and burst to be a disruptive forechecker, which isn't a bad outcome for a 2nd rd pick (only a handful become top six forwards). Look at Hextall's 2nd rd forwards, NAK, Allison, Ratcliffe, Laberge, After pick #40, you're rolling the dice on some attribute.

top 6 forwards in the 2nd round:
2014: Barbashev #33, Dvorak #58
2015: Aho #35, Hintz #49,
2016: Kyrou #35, DeBrincat #39
2017: Robertson #39

 

[Beef Invictus]

Maybe other Flyers prospects should just express interest in playing in the NHL, I'm sure the team will accommodate their wishes.

 

[deadhead]

I'm sure Michkov won't come over if he's not guaranteed a spot on the NHL roster.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

wasnt phillipe myers undrafted? it means nothing that the development team couldnt turn him into a top pairing D, players go undrafted for a reason, he was a lemon that the flyers took a chance on. not every player who can skate can be an NHL defenseman

my post was 100% sarcasm.

 

[tnfrs]

my post was 100% sarcasm.

oh lol

 

[blackjackmulligan]

oh lol

many think every prospect who doesn't make the nhl the flyers "ruined".

 

[tnfrs]

many think every prospect who doesn't make the nhl the flyers "ruined".

ya im starting to notice that around here

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

many think every prospect who doesn't make the nhl the flyers "ruined".

Let's also not forget the converse...if a Flyers prospect does make it is only by accident and overcoming the conspiracy to ruin young players' careers by not playing young players (except for the ones they do play which is by accident). Same thing with small guys. Any small guys the Flyers have is accidental because they only care about size and don't draft or play small players (except for the ones they do play or draft which is by accident).

 

[DAVIDE1333]

I've been following training camp and some of the preseason games. Irrespective of how they are used, can I allow myself to finally get exited about secondary young players like Brink, Zamula, Foerster, and Ersson?

 

[FLYguy3911]

Don’t forget Tuomaala wasn’t even considered good enough to make his junior national team last year.

 

[tnfrs]

I've been following training camp and some of the preseason games. Irrespective of how they are used, can I allow myself to finally get exited about secondary young players like Brink, Zamula, Foerster, and Ersson?

i wasnt even that big on zamula and brink until this camp and now ill probably be disappointed if they dont make the team, im already excited feels good

 

[Beef Invictus]

many think every prospect who doesn't make the nhl the flyers "ruined".

Nobody thinks that. There are specific cases where it seems to be the case though. For example, Myers, who had such a number done on him here that Nashville publicly commented on it.