GDT: Trades & Free Agency -- Off-season edition

  • PLEASE check any bookmark on all devices. IF you see a link pointing to mandatory.com DELETE it Please use this URL https://forums.hfboards.com/
Status
Not open for further replies.

Malachi Crunch

Registered User
Sep 24, 2022
471
799
Seravelli summed it up pretty good this morning on the morning show. If you think Marner is being scapegoated and will not waive, give a listen.
Yep. Marner is going to waive...he is going to get traded...and the return will be good.

It makes the most sense if you think it through logically (as Seravelli did).

No need for the fanbase to worry. We should actually be pretty excited! July 1st is going to be sweet.
 

Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
17,939
11,568
Jervis, Necas plus 1st rounder for Marner.

Canes finally get a true top talent and traded two players who sort of wanted out.
Both teams benefit.
 

JKG33

Leafs & Kings
Oct 31, 2009
7,507
11,405
Winnipeg
Yep. Marner is going to waive...he is going to get traded...and the return will be good.

It makes the most sense if you think it through logically (as Seravelli did).

No need for the fanbase to worry. We should actually be pretty excited! July 1st is going to be sweet.
I certainly am excited to get rid of the bum that's for sure. One step closer to closing this chapter.

Thats the thing about a trade, I don't think it'll involve any 2024 picks because it probably happens after the bonus is paid.
 

Visnovsky

Registered User
Aug 20, 2010
586
270
Finland
For the Marner trade, the absolute best case scenario would be a Seider/Dobson return - not that I think it would ever happen, but one can hope. :)

I am thinking more along the lines of McBain, Crouse and the 6th overall, then pick the best D that is available in the draft.

If the trade is dependant on the signing bonus being paid, a 2025/2026 pick is too volatile in value and it would for certain have to be a hockey trade.
 

conFABulator

Registered User
Apr 11, 2021
1,555
1,360
To me, it was the perfect storm for this team. First Shanahan was hired to try and turn the franchise around, then he ended up hiring Dubas, who then later hired Keefe. All three of them started their new positions within the Leafs organization without ever having had done this type of thing before. And this certainly showed with how those contract negotiations went!

Dubas and Shanahan handcuffed the team when they gave into Matthews' and Marner's contract demands. In February of 2019, Matthews had just inked a US$58.17 million five year contract extension worth an average annual salary of $11.634 million, the largest contract ever given to a rookie coming off of his ELC. Marner's agent, Ferris, told Dubas that Marner was going to finish the season before signing any new contract. Dubas then stated publicly that they would be okay with that because, "When they're ready to sit down, we'll talk. He's going to be a Toronto Maple Leaf for a long time, regardless of HOW we have to come to that." I do not blame M&M for their contracts, that is all on Dubas and Shanahan.

Yes the pandemic threw a monkey wrench into their plans of giving these 4 forwards all that money thinking they would still have enough to make improvements in the other areas, but I don't believe this would have made a difference. As I have previously said, no other team have put that much of their cap into 4 forwards, while still being able to build a strong defense core along with good to solid goaltending.

The way I see it is management put these 3 core players on a pedestal, thus creating the "entitlement" that, Matthews and Marner in particular, have surrounded them all this time. I am looking forward to the new culture that Tre and Berube want to establish where it's all about the "team", rather than the core and everybody else. When every player feels they are making a contribution to the team, then having a team culture naturally follows. Also, when any player is not performing up to the coach's standards and gets benched or healthy scratched, that also goes a long way to all the players buying in. Whereas when the star players are never held accountable while the other players are, that has to create a division amongst the players.
I don't disagree with your recollection of how things went and I think Dubas overpaid Matthews and Marner and that this did handcuff us. We agree on that.

What we don't know is how this would have played out of the cap kept rising. Would others signing big contracts not have made these look so bad? Would we have had more playoff success of we had $10M to $20M more to spend per season? These are different issues and I think you can say the Leads got screwed by Covid more than any other team AND that Dubas/Shanny did a poor job on these contracts.

It seems like some people here refuse to acknowledge the impact Covid had on us because it would be seen as letting Dubas off a hook of some sort.

Let me put it to you (and anyone else) this way. Can you name a team that got more impacted by Covid? Consider

  • The recency of big deals signed to key pieces
  • The impact on budget/cap constraints for a team that would spend to the cap every year and not some internal budget that is less than the cap
  • The window and trajectory as a contender
  • The border and Covid travel concerns
  • The impact of empty buildings on revenue
Again, you can agree that we got hit harder by Covid than everyone other team without making that some defense for Dubas.
 
  • Like
Reactions: freshwind

ULF_55

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,413
18,090
Mountain Standard Ti
Visit site
Frank has his opinion.

From what I gather it is without evidence, just pure conjecture.

Doesn't impact my opinion, which is without evidence, other than his team saying he intends to be in Toronto to honour his contractual obligations. Which the team has as well.
 

horner

Registered User
May 22, 2007
8,327
4,719
He'd go if they will pay him the most money but why would a budget team upset their salary structure for Marner? You think Johnny Hockey signs with Columbus if there more attractive destinations willing to pay him? Mitch will be in the same boat if he is looking for $12+m IMO.
Ii think Jonny Hockey rook less money than what Calgary offered.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ToneDog

4thline

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
14,592
9,982
Waterloo
I call this one..... the Runback(TM)

Knies-Matthews-Nylander
McMann-Tavares-Marner
Robertson(1.5m)-Holmberg-Jarncrok
Dewar(1m)-Kampf-Grebyonkin
Reaves

Rielly-xxx
McCabe-xxx
Benoit-Liljegren
Timmins

Woll
xxx

14.3 million in space, 2D and a G

Timmins can be stashed in the minors for a cheaper 7D
The Marner saga is.. ongoing. Complete gamechanger if he's moved.

Robertson/Jarncrok/Liljegren/Kampf represent ??? in my opinion. Could see any/all dealt to restock picks and free up spots for change, but they represent 8m combined. Realistically if you move any two of them for picks, replace 1 with a 900k player, you're only getting a 2.6 m(Robertson and Liljegren moved) to 3.6m (Kampf and Jarncrok moved) upgrade for the other
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaric1862

Captain Crunch

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
2,379
1,699
I don't disagree with your recollection of how things went and I think Dubas overpaid Matthews and Marner and that this did handcuff us. We agree on that.

What we don't know is how this would have played out of the cap kept rising. Would others signing big contracts not have made these look so bad? Would we have had more playoff success of we had $10M to $20M more to spend per season? These are different issues and I think you can say the Leads got screwed by Covid more than any other team AND that Dubas/Shanny did a poor job on these contracts.

It seems like some people here refuse to acknowledge the impact Covid had on us because it would be seen as letting Dubas off a hook of some sort.

Let me put it to you (and anyone else) this way. Can you name a team that got more impacted by Covid? Consider

  • The recency of big deals signed to key pieces
  • The impact on budget/cap constraints for a team that would spend to the cap every year and not some internal budget that is less than the cap
  • The window and trajectory as a contender
  • The border and Covid travel concerns
  • The impact of empty buildings on revenue
Again, you can agree that we got hit harder by Covid than everyone other team without making that some defense for Dubas.
No, we will never know how things would have turned out had it not been for Covid. But what I do know is that we are still the only team in the entire league who, starting next season, will be paying 4 forwards over $10 million each, and have been the only team with 4 forwards taking up nearly 50% of their team's cap allotment, while only having been able to win just ONE round while doing so. To add onto this, starting next year there will be a total of 8 (that's right, 8!) teams with just ONE player making $10 million or more! So that tells me that NONE of this mess can or should be blamed on Covid.

As for all the ways that Covid affected the Leafs, I would dare say that a lot of/most/all teams felt those very same effects.
 
  • Like
Reactions: horner

conFABulator

Registered User
Apr 11, 2021
1,555
1,360
No, we will never know how things would have turned out had it not been for Covid. But what I do know is that we are still the only team in the entire league who, starting next season, will be paying 4 forwards over $10 million each, and have been the only team with 4 forwards taking up nearly 50% of their team's cap allotment, while only having been able to win just ONE round while doing so. To add onto this, starting next year there will be a total of 8 (that's right, 8!) teams with just ONE player making $10 million or more! So that tells me that NONE of this mess can or should be blamed on Covid.

As for all the ways that Covid affected the Leafs, I would dare say that a lot of/most/all teams felt those very same effects.
Yes, it is true we are the only team in the NHL that checks the boxes in that unique set of attributes. We could do the same for every NHL team, many could look worse than the Leafs too.

Really? Name an actual other team that you feel for hit as hard by Covid, not just saying "all teams" because that is just not true.

What team was entering a window of contention, just locked in four or five key pieces, was a top revenue team that saw revenue take a massive hit, and had key free agents come up for renewal in the Covid window?

I agree we would have weathered Covid better without the Dubas contracts, it's not about that though...which team had their plans impacted more that the TML?
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
21,603
16,770
The Naki
I call this one..... the Runback(TM)

Knies-Matthews-Nylander
McMann-Tavares-Marner
Robertson(1.5m)-Holmberg-Jarncrok
Dewar(1m)-Kampf-Grebyonkin
Reaves

Rielly-xxx
McCabe-xxx
Benoit-Liljegren
Timmins

Woll
xxx

14.3 million in space, 2D and a G

Timmins can be stashed in the minors for a cheaper 7D
The Marner saga is.. ongoing. Complete gamechanger if he's moved.

Robertson/Jarncrok/Liljegren/Kampf represent ??? in my opinion. Could see any/all dealt to restock picks and free up spots for change, but they represent 8m combined. Realistically if you move any two of them for picks, replace 1 with a 900k player, you're only getting a 2.6 m(Robertson and Liljegren moved) to 3.6m (Kampf and Jarncrok moved) upgrade for the other
If we're bringing in a young guy I'd like to give him some offensively talented players to play with

So goodbye Jarnkrok hello Grebyonkin or Cowan, I'd also like to get rid of Kampf and add someone more offensively talented like Domi and/or Roslovic

Knies Matthews Nylander
McMann Tavares Marner
Robertson Roslovic Domi

That's pretty good, you have Cowan and Grebyonkin fighting for spots and you still have enough money to add elsewhere
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
15,962
12,404
thanks for the link.........

Yep. Marner is going to waive...he is going to get traded...and the return will be good.

It makes the most sense if you think it through logically (as Seravelli did).

No need for the fanbase to worry. We should actually be pretty excited! July 1st is going to be sweet.
for most it will be sweet, for Paul Marner and Jack Lambert it will be a sad sad day. BTW, who else thinks the aforementioned are the same person?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ToneDog

Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
17,939
11,568
Frank has his opinion.

From what I gather it is without evidence, just pure conjecture.

Doesn't impact my opinion, which is without evidence, other than his team saying he intends to be in Toronto to honour his contractual obligations. Which the team has as well.
It is quite sad that a player like MM is heading toward, he intends to be in Toronto to honour his contractual obligations. Instead of I want to retire as a Leafs, and I will do my absolute best to make sure I remain as a Leafs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kurtz and TMLAM34

Zero1

Registered User
Nov 11, 2021
497
763
I call this one..... the Runback(TM)

Knies-Matthews-Nylander
McMann-Tavares-Marner
Robertson(1.5m)-Holmberg-Jarncrok
Dewar(1m)-Kampf-Grebyonkin
Reaves

Rielly-xxx
McCabe-xxx
Benoit-Liljegren
Timmins

Woll
xxx

14.3 million in space, 2D and a G

Timmins can be stashed in the minors for a cheaper 7D
The Marner saga is.. ongoing. Complete gamechanger if he's moved.

Robertson/Jarncrok/Liljegren/Kampf represent ??? in my opinion. Could see any/all dealt to restock picks and free up spots for change, but they represent 8m combined. Realistically if you move any two of them for picks, replace 1 with a 900k player, you're only getting a 2.6 m(Robertson and Liljegren moved) to 3.6m (Kampf and Jarncrok moved) upgrade for the other

If Marner doesn’t waive then it’s probably a lost season next year because I still don’t think they have enough quality depth upfront.

I like the idea of building the backend this year because the free agent class for defenceman is better this year then focus on the forwards next year when Tavares and Marner are off the books.

Leafs two priorities the next two off-seasons should be to add a lot more speed and puck movers on the backend without losing any size. Easier said than done…
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
75,781
41,813
Frank has his opinion.

From what I gather it is without evidence, just pure conjecture.

Doesn't impact my opinion, which is without evidence, other than his team saying he intends to be in Toronto to honour his contractual obligations. Which the team has as well.
Everything is based on speculation.
There is no reason to believe that anything has changed with Marner and he wants to be a life long Leaf.
With a reasonable deal, the team would want that as well.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: HolyCrap

JKG33

Leafs & Kings
Oct 31, 2009
7,507
11,405
Winnipeg
Yes, it is true we are the only team in the NHL that checks the boxes in that unique set of attributes. We could do the same for every NHL team, many could look worse than the Leafs too.

Really? Name an actual other team that you feel for hit as hard by Covid, not just saying "all teams" because that is just not true.

What team was entering a window of contention, just locked in four or five key pieces, was a top revenue team that saw revenue take a massive hit, and had key free agents come up for renewal in the Covid window?

I agree we would have weathered Covid better without the Dubas contracts, it's not about that though...which team had their plans impacted more that the TML?
Most of the league has been operating at the cap ceiling. Only the Leafs were dumb enough to overpay their RFAs to unprecedented contracts. Those contracts looked terrible before covid too
 

Evilhomer

Registered User
Oct 10, 2019
4,493
4,369
if Marner would waive what about Mitch to NYI for Noah Dobson + Pageau. as a base. NYI struggled with offense last year, and once they moved Dobson they would need to sign a Montour/Skjei to replace some of his offense.
I suggested Marner for Dobson when the season ended. It makes sense for both teams, as does adding in Pageau to make the salaries work. Dobson is going to need a big deal next summer, but young 70 point defensemen don't grow on trees.
 

Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
17,939
11,568
If Marner doesn’t waive then it’s probably a lost season next year because I still don’t think they have enough quality depth upfront.

I like the idea of building the backend this year because the free agent class for defenceman is better this year then focus on the forwards next year when Tavares and Marner are off the books.

Leafs two priorities the next two off-seasons should be to add a lot more speed and puck movers on the backend without losing any size. Easier said than done…
I don't understand why MM won't waive?

Like it seems pretty clear that the MGT won't extend him and he is not part of the future. Now that can change if he stays in his final year and just dominate in the playoffs, but what is the chance of that happening?

IF he wants the 100mil new contract, he just can't get it with the Leafs. Bc I think deep down, Leafs won't commit to another 11mil plus contract till McD extends with the Oilers in the Jul 1, 2025. All teams esp the Leafs will be hoping he doesn't sign. Although, i don't think it will happen but it is a lot easier to trade two 5-6mil players than one 11mil plus player. Thats why I don't think Leafs would commit to another 11mil plus player.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Punch Drunk Loov

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
15,962
12,404
I suggested Marner for Dobson when the season ended. It makes sense for both teams, as does adding in Pageau to make the salaries work. Dobson is going to need a big deal next summer, but young 70 point defensemen don't grow on trees.
I'd be more than happy with that return.............
 

Gabriel426

Registered User
Jun 30, 2015
17,939
11,568
Everything is based on speculation.
There is no reason to believe that anything has changed with Marner and he wants to be a life long Leaf.
With a reasonable deal, the team would want that as well.
Honestly, at this moment, I just don't get a sense that either sides want to deal with each other.
It is very different than what happened to Willie last summer, as it seemed like both sides want to get a deal done but just can't agree on price.

Where as with MM, it seems like even MM doesn't want to deal with the Leafs.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,515
24,839
Richmond Hill, ON
I suggested Marner for Dobson when the season ended. It makes sense for both teams, as does adding in Pageau to make the salaries work. Dobson is going to need a big deal next summer, but young 70 point defensemen don't grow on trees.
Kinda resembles the rumoured deal with Vegas for Theo and Wild Bill. money has to work. I prfer Dobson but Lou would have to really want Mitch to let him go. Lou probably wants nothing to do with him and his dad from his days here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad