GDT: Trades & Free Agency -- Off-season edition

[Kurtz]

The issue is that Leafs better and more balance lineup and most importantly their highest paid players need to show up in playoffs.
That can’t be done with the current core.

Why not?

 

[Gabriel426]

Why not?

They collectively choke in playoffs.
Put it this way, it was a questions my friend(Leafs fans) asked me before the playoffs. Would you bet your house on the Leafs winning the Cup. The answer is no, but would on the Avs, Vegas, Panthers and Stars, and the reason was the top guys just didn’t have any history of winning in the playoffs.
That’s a fact. Nomatter how anyone tried to sugarcoated it with advanced stats or being outgoalied or it was coaching or whatever. Having ONE series win in 6 yrs(JT time here) while having 3 of the top 7 salaries or 3 of the top 10 salaries in the league is unacceptable and pretty much proves that the guys can’t get it done collectively.

 

[Kurtz]

They collectively choke in playoffs.
Put it this way, it was a questions my friend(Leafs fans) asked me before the playoffs. Would you bet your house on the Leafs winning the Cup. The answer is no, but would on the Avs, Vegas, Panthers and Stars, and the reason was the top guys just didn’t have any history of winning in the playoffs.
That’s a fact. Nomatter how anyone tried to sugarcoated it with advanced stats or being outgoalied or it was coaching or whatever. Having ONE series win in 6 yrs(JT time here) while having 3 of the top 7 salaries or 3 of the top 10 salaries in the league is unacceptable and pretty much proves that the guys can’t get it done collectively.

I'm watching Edmonton vs Dallas right now and I see two teams with familiar cores who couldn't get it done but kept them together and augmented with smart acquisitions and good draft picks, and one of them will be going to the finals.

Yesterday I saw a Panthers team that had a defense that collectively made less money than our defense, but performs better due to smart, cheap pickups of guys like Forsling and Montour.

All 5 of our core guys have had good playoffs series...just not all at the same time. It will be broken up anyway when JT's contract is off the books. Maybe all the team needs is to make a bunch of smart pickups around the core, like dumping the softies like Brodie, 'Lil, Jarn, Kampf, Robertson, the guys who never had a single good playoff series... and picking up guys who are hard to play against and have shown up in the playoffs (ie Zadorov, Trenin, etc), and a legitimate starting goalie, and that could be all we need.

 

[thusk]

The issue is that Leafs better and more balance lineup and most importantly their highest paid players need to show up in playoffs.
That can’t be done with the current core.

The thing you don't understand is outside of core, nobody create anything offensively.

9 of 12 goal vs Boston had been of the core making the key play. the only only goal who's not

Kampf goal who came from a point shot Swayman can't control...

Mccabe point shot screen
Bertuzzi... pass wide whobtouched his skate and deflected in.

The only way EVERY other player outside of the core was able to score was from distance shot and A lot of luck...

It's not a question of core, you can took every foward and switch for the foward you want, the result will still basically the same if you don't change the D. If you're thinking youbl will be able to pass into a defensive system just by controlling the puck on the outside in the ofdensive zone, it will be hard for any team to have succes in playoff. It what we saw under Keefe year after year...

Your need D able to be involve in the offensive game to create space to your fowars and your need D enough good to give a chance to your foward to force mistake to counter attack.

Start to fix the D and i guarantee you, you will see a huge difference of how core will play in playoff

 

[LaPlante94]

The thing you don't understand is outside of core, nobody create anything offensively.

9 of 12 goal vs Boston had been of the core making the key play. the only only goal who's not

Kampf goal who came from a point shot Swayman can't control...

Mccabe point shot screen
Bertuzzi... pass wide whobtouched his skate and deflected in.

The only way EVERY other player outside of the core was able to score was from distance shot and A lot of luck...

It's not a question of core, you can took every foward and switch for the foward you want, the result will still basically the same if you don't change the D. If you're thinking youbl will be able to pass into a defensive system just by controlling the puck on the outside in the ofdensive zone, it will be hard for any team to have succes in playoff. It what we saw under Keefe year after year...

Your need D able to be involve in the offensive game to create space to your fowars and your need D enough good to give a chance to your foward to force mistake to counter attack.

Start to fix the D and i guarantee you, you will see a huge difference of how core will play in playoff

Nurse, Ceci, Bouchard, Barrie, Kulak, Ekholm, Desharnais, Broberg, Keith, Russell. These are names of the defenders McDavid and Draisatl had to play with over the years and they still perform and carry their team which is probably even worse with their depth forwards too. With how much they are getting paid these excuses really need to stop. If they cared and wanted more help then they'd take less money, but they take maximum amount of money they can and then become ghosts as the series gets to games 3/4-7.

 

[Trapper]

Nurse, Ceci, Bouchard, Barrie, Kulak, Ekholm, Desharnais, Broberg, Keith, Russell. These are names of the defenders McDavid and Draisatl had to play with over the years and they still perform and carry their team which is probably even worse with their depth forwards too. With how much they are getting paid these excuses really need to stop. If they cared and wanted more help then they'd take less money, but they take maximum amount of money they can and then become ghosts as the series gets to games 3/4-7.

Agreed. The Oilers defence, goaltending and coaching have been no better than ours.

This core needs to change. The same core that keeps losing together needs to change, leadership, letters on jerseys, and the entire aura of who the guys are that this all flows down from needs to change.

We can still do the things being said above. New D, goaltending, depth. Just do it with Matthews and Nylander. We don’t need 2 double digit wingers when so much needs to be fixed and we don’t need to see a crazy contract demand in the middle of wondering if we can win a round.

They’ve been given their time and every other opportunity.

 

[TMLAM34]

Nurse, Ceci, Bouchard, Barrie, Kulak, Ekholm, Desharnais, Broberg, Keith, Russell. These are names of the defenders McDavid and Draisatl had to play with over the years and they still perform and carry their team which is probably even worse with their depth forwards too. With how much they are getting paid these excuses really need to stop. If they cared and wanted more help then they'd take less money, but they take maximum amount of money they can and then become ghosts as the series gets to games 3/4-7.

It makes me laugh when people say we need better depth to support the core four…

Matthews is being paid like McDavid and MacKinnon, meanwhile nowhere near their level of production in the playoffs.

Marner is being paid like Pastrnak and Kucherov, meanwhile can’t score or take over a game like either of them.

JT is being paid 11 million to be a bottom six forward.

Nylander is the only one you can’t complain about at 6.9 million. That obviously changes moving forward.

These guys want to be paid like the best but don’t play like the best when it matters. They suck every penny out of this organization making it extremely hard for the team to improve the depth with so little money.

How many times have we seen the supporting cast be changed? How many more times do we have to see it happen because we don’t have the right depth pieces apparently?

 

[Dreakmur]

I'm watching Edmonton vs Dallas right now and I see two teams with familiar cores who couldn't get it done but kept them together and augmented with smart acquisitions and good draft picks, and one of them will be going to the finals.

Those teams have been more successful. If Dallas wins, it will be their 5th playoff series win in the last 3 years. If Edmonton wins, it will be their 6th.

Yesterday I saw a Panthers team that had a defense that collectively made less money than our defense, but performs better due to smart, cheap pickups of guys like Forsling and Montour.

While their blueline is cheap, Montour was picked up as a cap dump. We never have the cap space to make those kinds of additions.

All 5 of our core guys have had good playoffs series...just not all at the same time. It will be broken up anyway when JT's contract is off the books. Maybe all the team needs is to make a bunch of smart pickups around the core, like dumping the softies like Brodie, 'Lil, Jarn, Kampf, Robertson, the guys who never had a single good playoff series... and picking up guys who are hard to play against and have shown up in the playoffs (ie Zadorov, Trenin, etc), and a legitimate starting goalie, and that could be all we need.

Surrounding the core only works if they pull their weight. They don’t. Even Marner’s best ever playoff production of 3 goals and 14 points in 11 games isn’t worth 11 million.

Mcdavid has 28 in 16 this year, 20 in 12 last year, and 33 in 16 the year before. Draisaitl has 26, 18, and 26 over that same span. Those are scoring numbers worth 11+ million…

 

[thusk]

Nurse, Ceci, Bouchard, Barrie, Kulak, Ekholm, Desharnais, Broberg, Keith, Russell. These are names of the defenders McDavid and Draisatl had to play with over the years and they still perform and carry their team which is probably even worse with their depth forwards too. With how much they are getting paid these excuses really need to stop. If they cared and wanted more help then they'd take less money, but they take maximum amount of money they can and then become ghosts as the series gets to games 3/4-7.

Edmonton look like a contender since they raded and pay the price for Ekholm.. Why? They build a D, leafs still struggling and why? leafs D still one of 10 worst D in the entire NHL.

Edmonton they spend on Ekholm, they draft and develop Bouchard and Nurse ( even if hes overpay, that's why now they can hope for a cup... Mccabe would be at best #4 in this team and he's #2 in Toronto. The only top 3 D leafs having is rielly and he's a one dimentionnal player. Before having this D, even if Edmonton was playing a high agressive style and scored a lot of goal, they was looking like a swiss cheese. So yeah in the sheet they had better stats but they was not better.

I tell it again, build a real D and every one will look better. Find the leafs Ekholm and find a real #3 and this team will not be the same anymore.

 

[TMLAM34]

I wonder in a more structured system if Nylander would actually be able to play center again. Worth a try again IMO.

 

[Budz]

Matthews 3rd in C scoring in the league.
Tavares 29th in C scoring in the league
Domi 45th in C scoring in the league.

So.... three C's in the top 50 in the league in scoring, but the main problem of this team, is C's?

You are insufferable lately.

Tavares is in his last year of a huge contract.
Domi is an unsigned UFA who got the majority of his points playing with Matthews.
There is little depth beyond that. Minten, Kampf, Holmgren.

Look at the C groups of the final 4 and report back.

 

[LaPlante94]

Edmonton look like a contender since they raded and pay the price for Ekholm.. Why? They build a D, leafs still struggling and why? leafs D still one of 10 worst D in the entire NHL.

Edmonton they spend on Ekholm, they draft and develop Bouchard and Nurse ( even if hes overpay, that's why now they can hope for a cup... Mccabe would be at best #4 in this team and he's #2 in Toronto. The only top 3 D leafs having is rielly and he's a one dimentionnal player. Before having this D, even if Edmonton was playing a high agressive style and scored a lot of goal, they was looking like a swiss cheese. So yeah in the sheet they had better stats but they was not better.

I tell it again, build a real D and every one will look better. Find the leafs Ekholm and find a real #3 and this team will not be the same anymore.

Muzzin was our Ekholm trade. What results did we get exactly? Muzzin was also younger. We drafted and developed Rielly and Bouchard is pretty much Rielly with a slapshot. There's no excuse for why 2 guys can carry all those bums on Edmonton but 4 guys can't on Toronto.

 

[Kurtz]

Those teams have been more successful. If Dallas wins, it will be their 5th playoff series win in the last 3 years. If Edmonton wins, it will be their 6th.



While their blueline is cheap, Montour was picked up as a cap dump. We never have the cap space to make those kinds of additions.



Surrounding the core only works if they pull their weight. They don’t. Even Marner’s best ever playoff production of 3 goals and 14 points in 11 games isn’t worth 11 million.

Mcdavid has 28 in 16 this year, 20 in 12 last year, and 33 in 16 the year before. Draisaitl has 26, 18, and 26 over that same span. Those are scoring numbers worth 11+ million…

This is where we need to apply a little bit of context, I think. Every year we run into a buzzsaw like TB, Florida, Boston, whereas Edmonton gets to feast on mediocre teams like LA or Van with their 3rd stringer in net. Even the MTL team that we should have beaten did end up going to the Finals. When Edmonton plays cup-level teams they lose just like we do.

Montour makes $3.2m, we could have easily picked him up. Capspace I think is a cheap excuse for Dubas' general incompetence in choosing the right support players.

If we're offered McDavid and Drai for our core guys, I say we take the deal. And that Hyman fella looks like a terrific playoff performer, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could find a player like that?

 

[Gabriel426]

I'm watching Edmonton vs Dallas right now and I see two teams with familiar cores who couldn't get it done but kept them together and augmented with smart acquisitions and good draft picks, and one of them will be going to the finals.

Yesterday I saw a Panthers team that had a defense that collectively made less money than our defense, but performs better due to smart, cheap pickups of guys like Forsling and Montour.

All 5 of our core guys have had good playoffs series...just not all at the same time. It will be broken up anyway when JT's contract is off the books. Maybe all the team needs is to make a bunch of smart pickups around the core, like dumping the softies like Brodie, 'Lil, Jarn, Kampf, Robertson, the guys who never had a single good playoff series... and picking up guys who are hard to play against and have shown up in the playoffs (ie Zadorov, Trenin, etc), and a legitimate starting goalie, and that could be all we need.

None of these teams got Three and will be Four players over 11mil.
Oilers and Stars both kept their so called core together because they actually won ROUNDs in the same playoffs not ONE playoff round in 6 years(only counting JT years).
If you still can’t see the difference in that, let’s just agree to disagree.
Beside Reilly and to some extend Willie, our core guys struggled in the playoffs. I mean if you need to go back to 5-6yrs as proof that they can perform, that’s not a strong argument.
No doubt, coaching, supporting players, defence, goalie are problems but the core is also the problem.
it is insane to believe the notion that the core can get it done collectively when they had failed to do so for 6 years without any improvements on the ice while the team kept changing the supporting players or special teams coaches, but respect in the handshake line.

 

[Gabriel426]

The thing you don't understand is outside of core, nobody create anything offensively.

9 of 12 goal vs Boston had been of the core making the key play. the only only goal who's not

Kampf goal who came from a point shot Swayman can't control...

Mccabe point shot screen
Bertuzzi... pass wide whobtouched his skate and deflected in.

The only way EVERY other player outside of the core was able to score was from distance shot and A lot of luck...

It's not a question of core, you can took every foward and switch for the foward you want, the result will still basically the same if you don't change the D. If you're thinking youbl will be able to pass into a defensive system just by controlling the puck on the outside in the ofdensive zone, it will be hard for any team to have succes in playoff. It what we saw under Keefe year after year...

Your need D able to be involve in the offensive game to create space to your fowars and your need D enough good to give a chance to your foward to force mistake to counter attack.

Start to fix the D and i guarantee you, you will see a huge difference of how core will play in playoff

The core didn’t create anything either. At least two of them are constantly praised during the regular season as McD and Drai? Had any of them perform like McD and Drai?
Fixing the core doesn’t mean ignoring the D.
A Dman can become part of the new core.

Don’t understand why the core is so important that they can’t be change? Had they won anything if significant? Had they played dominated hockey in the playoffs that showed they were close? They made it to the 2nd round ONCE in the past 8 years(6 years with JT). If they can’t get anything done with THREE 10mil plus players, what’s the confidence in believing they can get it done with FOUR 11mil players.
The cap goes up for every team yet there are/were only 3 other teams with more than one player over 10mil and two of those teams done it as a rewarding contracts as both teams WON CUPs.

If Vegas is willing to give Pietra plus picks for MM, you take that deal and run.
If Blues is willing to part Parayko and Binnington plus picks for JT, you take that deal and run.
I failed to see how having Pietra, Parakyo and Binnington instead of MM and JT is a downgrade to the Leafs?
As the Leafs can still use the remaining money to spend on Domi, Bert and Marchessault

 

[Gabriel426]

Edmonton look like a contender since they raded and pay the price for Ekholm.. Why? They build a D, leafs still struggling and why? leafs D still one of 10 worst D in the entire NHL.

Edmonton they spend on Ekholm, they draft and develop Bouchard and Nurse ( even if hes overpay, that's why now they can hope for a cup... Mccabe would be at best #4 in this team and he's #2 in Toronto. The only top 3 D leafs having is rielly and he's a one dimentionnal player. Before having this D, even if Edmonton was playing a high agressive style and scored a lot of goal, they was looking like a swiss cheese. So yeah in the sheet they had better stats but they was not better.

I tell it again, build a real D and every one will look better. Find the leafs Ekholm and find a real #3 and this team will not be the same anymore.

Nobody is disagreeing with you about building a D.
I would even build a new core with Dmen.
But the Leafs can’t build a proper Dcore without moving out the current core.

 

[Dreakmur]

This is where we need to apply a little bit of context, I think. Every year we run into a buzzsaw like TB, Florida, Boston, whereas Edmonton gets to feast on mediocre teams like LA or Van with their 3rd stringer in net. Even the MTL team that we should have beaten did end up going to the Finals.

How did they do against non buzzsaws like Columbus and Montreal? Neither of those teams even qualify for the playoffs under normal playoff rules….

When Edmonton plays cup-level teams they lose just like we do.

They can only beat the teams in front of them, but for the sake of accuracy, Edmonton has twice beat teams with as many or more points than the team Toronto lost to.

Montour makes $3.2m, we could have easily picked him up. Capspace I think is a cheap excuse for Dubas' general incompetence in choosing the right support players.

Montour’s cap hit was 3.85 when he was a cap dump.

If we're offered McDavid and Drai for our core guys, I say we take the deal. And that Hyman fella looks like a terrific playoff performer, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could find a player like that?

Yup

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

Why are so many people contemplating dumping Timmins, who was good whenever he played and is signed for a bargain 1.1M, while also proposing to re-sign Edmundson (who sucked) and/or give 2M+ to Liljegren (who also sucked outside of a few brief stretches like when Rielly was suspended)?

 

[TMLAM34]

Why are so many people contemplating dumping Timmins, who was good whenever he played and is signed for a bargain 1.1M, while also proposing to re-sign Edmundson (who sucked) and/or give 2M+ to Liljegren (who also sucked outside of a few brief stretches like when Rielly was suspended)?

I’m assuming because he’s very injury prone and cannot stay healthy.

 

[horner]

This is where we need to apply a little bit of context, I think. Every year we run into a buzzsaw like TB, Florida, Boston, whereas Edmonton gets to feast on mediocre teams like LA or Van with their 3rd stringer in net. Even the MTL team that we should have beaten did end up going to the Finals. When Edmonton plays cup-level teams they lose just like we do.

Montour makes $3.2m, we could have easily picked him up. Capspace I think is a cheap excuse for Dubas' general incompetence in choosing the right support players.

If we're offered McDavid and Drai for our core guys, I say we take the deal. And that Hyman fella looks like a terrific playoff performer, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could find a player like that?

East goaltenders the last 6 yrs
Price
Vasi
Bob
Shesterkin

West
Saros
I can't think of anyone else that comes close to these goaltenders

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Toronto: Tkachuk + Pinto + Seider + Gostisbehere

Detroit: Marner + Chabot

Ottawa: Tavares + Robertson + Liljegren + Minten + Leafs 1st(2024) + Leafs 1st(2026) + Berggren + Sandin-Pellicka

Leafs sign Montour

Nylander(11.5)/Matthews(13.5)/Cowan(1)
Tkachuk(8)/Domi(4)/Bertuzzi(5)
Knies(1)/Pinto(3)/Jarnkrok(2)
Gregor(1)/Kampf(2.5)/Holmberg(1)
*Reaves(1.5)

Rielly(7.5)/Seider(8)
Gostisbehere(4)/Montour(6.5)
Benoit(1.5)/McCabe(2)

Hildeby(1)
Woll(1)

Total = 87 (0 remaining)

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Why are so many people contemplating dumping Timmins, who was good whenever he played and is signed for a bargain 1.1M, while also proposing to re-sign Edmundson (who sucked) and/or give 2M+ to Liljegren (who also sucked outside of a few brief stretches like when Rielly was suspended)?

Timmins good whenever he played?

My calendar isn't showing April 1st on it.

 

[Brobust]

They collectively choke in playoffs.
Put it this way, it was a questions my friend(Leafs fans) asked me before the playoffs. Would you bet your house on the Leafs winning the Cup. The answer is no, but would on the Avs, Vegas, Panthers and Stars, and the reason was the top guys just didn’t have any history of winning in the playoffs.
That’s a fact. Nomatter how anyone tried to sugarcoated it with advanced stats or being outgoalied or it was coaching or whatever. Having ONE series win in 6 yrs(JT time here) while having 3 of the top 7 salaries or 3 of the top 10 salaries in the league is unacceptable and pretty much proves that the guys can’t get it done collectively.

Jon Cooper said it best. The Atlantic is the best and it's a gauntlet. Tampa, Boston and Toronto: anyone can beat anyone. Florida is now even better than those three.

Just keep getting better. The cap is going up and they finally have money to work with. Treliving has to make smart moves. Find our Bennetts and Forslings. Work to repair Marner's relationship with this city.

 

[Havoc]

Just have to step in here for a second.

This watered down league is tiered off and lop sided. You have to pretend it's a 4 team league of Boston, Florida, Toronto and Tampa and then build your team within that.

Abstract the rest of the league away and just assume if you can go toe to toe with these 3 teams, you can take out any other team in the league.

Getting smashed (where almost every series went to game 7 btw) by these 3 teams during years where we still had holes is causing people to want to make moves that drop us out of this tier but line us up with teams we're not even going to face because of the playoff format.

It's takes a few minutes to wrap your head around what I'm saying but most of the (realistic) trade proposals that break up the core make us worse. For starters, JT at 2C / 3C is an absolute cheat code that allows us to go in that 4 team tier.

The cap hits are ugly on paper but loop back to my first sentence of watered down league and there is enough cap space. 90% of the players in this league can wash themselves out when you line up the teams head to head in a well coached way. "Parity" is causing the NHL to shift to more NBA style where a few superstars are enough to make you sky rocket to a tier over half the league can't touch. These other teams fantasize about the day they can draft a stud of their own.

Our biggest flaw thus far has been the actual wash-out when lining up the teams head to head. We chose soft, vanilla and mentally weak players who are easy to over power in serious games. If you are serious about winning, you leave the core alone and continue focusing on ridding this team of it's vanilla / too many players that play the same style issue that plagued our depth multiple years in a row.

Hiring Berube was a big step in the right direction. Jarnkrok over Domi or Bertuzzi in critical situations is a good example of what not to do in the leagues current format. I don't know what Marners offensive struggles has to do with stuff like that.

We are fully capable of winning all of the Series that Marner has struggled in, so imagine if he only improves even 10% while filling up the rest of the roster with hard working players we can easily afford no matter how much Marner makes. You know who we can't afford if we needed one? Marner.

 

[Shooter2x]

Just have to step in here for a second.

This watered down league is tiered off and lop sided. You have to pretend it's a 4 team league of Boston, Florida, Toronto and Tampa and then build your team within that.

Abstract the rest of the league away and just assume if you can go toe to toe with these 3 teams, you can take out any other team in the league.

Getting smashed (where almost every series went to game 7 btw) by these 3 teams during years where we still had holes is causing people to want to make moves that drop us out of this tier but line us up with teams we're not even going to face because of the playoff format.

It's takes a few minutes to wrap your head around what I'm saying but most of the (realistic) trade proposals that break up the core make us worse. For starters, JT at 2C / 3C is an absolute cheat code that allows us to go in that 4 team tier.

The cap hits are ugly on paper but loop back to my first sentence of watered down league and there is enough cap space. 90% of the players in this league can wash themselves out when you line up the teams head to head in a well coached way. "Parity" is causing the NHL to shift to more NBA style where a few superstars are enough to make you sky rocket to a tier over half the league can't touch. These other teams fantasize about the day they can draft a stud of their own.

Our biggest flaw thus far has been the actual wash-out when lining up the teams head to head. We chose soft, vanilla and mentally weak players who are easy to over power in serious games. If you are serious about winning, you leave the core alone and continue focusing on ridding this team of it's vanilla / too many players that play the same style issue that plagued our depth multiple years in a row.

Hiring Berube was a big step in the right direction. Jarnkrok over Domi or Bertuzzi in critical situations is a good example of what not to do in the leagues current format. I don't know what Marners offensive struggles has to do with stuff like that.

We are fully capable of winning all of the Series that Marner has struggled in, so imagine if he only improves even 10% while filling up the rest of the roster with hard working players we can easily afford no matter how much Marner makes. You know who we can't afford if we needed one? Marner.

Bettman plans to add more teams too. Get ahead of the curve and sign your superstars with lots of mileage left asap.