Trades and UFA’s - Trade Deadline Edition

[Sypher04]

Trade protection waived... same, but different, unless we choose to pedant away.

Kuzmenko had Calgary on the NTC, he waived.

It’s not pedantic.

i don’t think anyone has been claiming that a player choosing to waive trade protection doesn’t happen, but there is a sizable difference between say this scenario and Marner or Tavares.

The odds of a player working with you when a) they aren’t having a good year b) don’t play all the time c) could be traded to any one of 19 other locations without their permission is different than a player who has been with a team for 6-8 years, is among the highest paid in the league, gets big minutes, pp, everything, are from the area and hold complete control over any potential movement.

You can ask, but it’s almost assuredly going to be a no.

 

[ULF_55]

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I think he would have fit in with the Leafs in the same manner.

He can play center or wing.

Tavares-Lindholm-Nylander

Leafs 1st. would have been better.
Robertson - Kuzmenko - for 15 months - Leafs comparable value?
Bertuzzi - cap purposes, and would require waiving, but he isn't doing his future any great shakes with his performance/accomplishments in Toronto
Minten
Axel Rindel - no idea about Joni Jurmo

 

[WTFMAN99]

It’s not pedantic.

i don’t think anyone has been claiming that a player choosing to waive trade protection doesn’t happen, but there is a sizable difference between say this scenario and Marner or Tavares.

The odds of a player working with you when a) they aren’t having a good year b) don’t play all the time c) could be traded to any one of 19 other locations without their permission is different than a player who has been with a team for 6-8 years, is among the highest paid in the league, gets big minutes, pp, everything, are from the area and hold complete control over any potential movement.

I'm going to go through a bit of a weirdly specific scenario but let's pretend we get a new coach and they don't care for Tavares, he's slow, so-so defensively and they want more intensity/pace and same thing as Kuzmenko, the coach scratches him a few times.

Is that enough for JT to say he's out?

 

[ACC1224]

I'm going to go through a bit of a weirdly specific scenario but let's pretend we get a new coach and they don't care for Tavares, he's slow, so-so defensively and they want more intensity/pace and same thing as Kuzmenko, the coach scratches him a few times.

Is that enough for JT to say he's out?

I doubt it but who knows? Sure he makes too much but his play hasn't fallen off to being a healthy scratch though.

 

[Fogelhund]

I'm going to go through a bit of a weirdly specific scenario but let's pretend we get a new coach and they don't care for Tavares, he's slow, so-so defensively and they want more intensity/pace and same thing as Kuzmenko, the coach scratches him a few times.

Is that enough for JT to say he's out?

JT... no chance.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I doubt it but who knows? Sure he makes too much but his play hasn't fallen off to being a healthy scratch though.

He had a pretty epic pointless streak but this was Kuzmenko;

3GP 2 assists - scratched

Since then, 6GP 7 pts and then scratched

It was then off/on in terms of being randomly scratched etc by Tocchett.

I don't think he was a healthy scratch candidate either, I only caught a few games, the odd defensive lapse but half our team could be scratched for those.

 

[ULF_55]

I'm going to go through a bit of a weirdly specific scenario but let's pretend we get a new coach and they don't care for Tavares, he's slow, so-so defensively and they want more intensity/pace and same thing as Kuzmenko, the coach scratches him a few times.

Is that enough for JT to say he's out?

If the Leafs were not in a playoffs race maybe ...

However, how much retention would Leafs offer?

Tavares is a quality player, and I believe (don't know him personally) quality person.

Senators are after quality players/people.

Chychrun and Tarasenko, Leafs retain $2mm.

Now, do other UFA's look at this and say, "I think I'll just skip the Leafs."

 

[Buds17]

I'm going to go through a bit of a weirdly specific scenario but let's pretend we get a new coach and they don't care for Tavares, he's slow, so-so defensively and they want more intensity/pace and same thing as Kuzmenko, the coach scratches him a few times.

Is that enough for JT to say he's out?

Kuzmenko - 21 PTS in 43 GP
Tavares - 35 PTS in 47 GP

Vancouver is also in 1st place in the Conference and League (tied for the latter).

More than anything else, I think our hypothetical coach might face a level of scrutiny for his decision that Tocchet wouldn't have.

 

[WTFMAN99]

If the Leafs were not in a playoffs race maybe ...

However, how much retention would Leafs offer?

Tavares is a quality player, and I believe (don't know him personally) quality person.

Senators are after quality players/people.

Chychrun and Tarasenko, Leafs retain $2mm.

Now, do other UFA's look at this and say, "I think I'll just skip the Leafs."

I feel like in the 1/10000 chance JT waives, the team that would value him would be more of a budget team versus a cap team.

Ex, after July 1st (meaning in-season next year probably in that scenario) his salary is only 910k once we pay the bonus.

Also keep in mind Kuzmenko extended 2 years with them rather than test UFA and he got half a season into a new contract and he got traded to a place that he specifically had on his NTC list.

Kuzmenko - 21 PTS in 43 GP
Tavares - 35 PTS in 47 GP

Vancouver is also in 1st place in the Conference and League (tied for the latter).

More than anything else, I think our hypothetical coach might face a level of scrutiny that Tocchet wouldn't have.

Vancouver is a pretty hockey crazy place but 9 pts in 9 GP basically to start the year and then it seemed like the coach and him just didn't work, came off the rails.

Kuzmenko had a really weird off-season program but he was good last year (crazy shooting %)

 

[ACC1224]

He had a pretty epic pointless streak but this was Kuzmenko;

View attachment 813625

3GP 2 assists - scratched

Since then, 6GP 7 pts and then scratched

It was then off/on in terms of being randomly scratched etc by Tocchett.

I don't think he was a healthy scratch candidate either, I only caught a few games, the odd defensive lapse but half our team could be scratched for those.

I wouldn't expect they would treat a player like Tavares the same as a young player like Kuzemenko, no team would.
Situation aren't even remotely similar.

 

[Avilaj07]

Would Philly listening on offers for Laughton, I hope Treliving in looking into that. I know we've been after him in the past, but he would be your perfect 3rd line center.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I would expect they would treat a player like Tavares the same as a young player like Kuzemenko, no team would.
Situation aren't even remotely similar.

It's reading funny to me, did you mean they wouldn't treat JT similar to a younger guy like Kuzmenko?

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Would Philly listening on offers for Laughton, I hope Treliving in looking into that. I know we've been after him in the past, but he would be your perfect 3rd line center.

I remember watching a video where Laughton alluded that he didn’t want to play in Toronto.

May have been a podcast where they joked around saying he got traded here if I recall correctly.

Not sure if anyone else remembers that (or if it even happened, my memory fails me sometimes).

 

[ACC1224]

It's reading funny to me, did you mean they wouldn't treat JT similar to a younger guy like Kuzmenko?

Yes, sorry.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yes, sorry.

I think he's new to the NHL but he is 28 in a few days

He had a 39 goal, 74 pt rookie year and then posted 9 pts in 9GP to start the year, seemed to respond to the healthy scratch with 7 pts in 6GP...he just doesn't fit with Tochett unfortunately.

40 points will be a drop off from last year for sure.

The more wild thing is with JT, even with the epic pointless streak, he didn't even get removed off the top PP unit, no accountability with this coach and the players.

 

[ACC1224]

I think he's new to the NHL but he is 28 in a few days

He had a 39 goal, 74 pt rookie year and then posted 9 pts in 9GP to start the year, seemed to respond to the healthy scratch with 7 pts in 6GP...he just doesn't fit with Tochett unfortunately.

40 points will be a drop off from last year for sure.

The more wild thing is with JT, even with the epic pointless streak, he didn't even get removed off the top PP unit, no accountability with this coach and the players.

Different methods work with different players. I don't really know much about the Vancouver situation but it seems like there were issues that don't exist here. I'm guessing the thought with Tavares was that he'll have a better chance getting out of his slump by continuing with his PP opportunities than sitting him.
I don't think Accountability applies in Tavares situation. The effort is there, the results aren't.

 

[notdoneyet]

I get it but at the end of the day there have been players who have waived their NMC.

Most of those players have agendas of their own. Most waive to better themselves not for the team.
Lindholm wasn’t signing with Calgary. He waived to go to a first place team that can offer him two things. One being a better chance to build up his points for his next contract while being on a playoff contender.
Kusnetzov waived to get more ice time at 5v5

 

[WTFMAN99]

Different methods work with different players. I don't really know much about the Vancouver situation but it seems like there were issues that don't exist here. I'm guessing the thought with Tavares was that he'll have a better chance getting out of his slump by continuing with his PP opportunities than sitting him.
I don't think Accountability applies in Tavares situation. The effort is there, the results aren't.

Yea, that's the mind boggling thing here, at every level, the results aren't there but we keep doing the same shit lol.

 

[Hellcat]

None that I can think of in Marners situation.

Fleury, Bishop, Price, Skinner, Karlsson are just some of who have waived their NMC or are willing (reportedly Karlsson is willing) to waive their NMC. Anything is possible and it is really up to the player, some are easily convinced others stick to the contract they negotiated. I wouldn't let a NMC or a NTC get in the way of asking the player if they would waive. If I'm Tre , I'm asking both JT and MM if they would be willing to waive for the right conditions. they say no, peace we live with the contracts and move on...

Most of those players have agendas of their own. Most waive to better themselves not for the team.
Lindholm wasn’t signing with Calgary. He waived to go to a first place team that can offer him two things. One being a better chance to build up his points for his next contract while being on a playoff contender.
Kusnetzov waived to get more ice time at 5v5

Right if you ask a player with a NMC , do you want to go to Buffalo... unless they have some kind of personal connection to Buffalo... I think we can all safely guess the answer would be no. If you ask them do you want to go to Boston for better ice time and a chance at the cup , I think many players would say yes. There has to be something in it for the player to say yes , otherwise why go through the process of moving to a new city for a few months?

 

[notdoneyet]

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I think he would have fit in with the Leafs in the same manner.

He can play center or wing.

Tavares-Lindholm-Nylander

Leafs 1st. would have been better.
Robertson - Kuzmenko - for 15 months - Leafs comparable value?
Bertuzzi - cap purposes, and would require waiving, but he isn't doing his future any great shakes with his performance/accomplishments in Toronto
Minten
Axel Rindel - no idea about Joni Jurmo

He refused an 8x8 from Calgary even if we match that how could we afford him. You want to pay all that for a rental. No way
Tired of throwing away players draft picks for guys leaving the next year
Any trades we make should come with someone with time on their contract or make sure we can get an extension

 

[WTFMAN99]

He refused an 8x8 from Calgary even if we match that how could we afford him. You want to pay all that for a rental. No way
Tired of throwing away players draft picks for guys leaving the next year
Any trades we make should come with someone with time on their contract or make sure we can get an extension

Dubas always got cute with additions and put it off.

Boston acquires Hampus Lindholm and promptly re-signs him.

If you use assets to acquire a guy and then re-sign him, okay not bad, it's a little more worth it.

 

[ACC1224]

Fleury, Bishop, Price, Skinner, Karlsson are just some of who have waived their NMC or are willing (reportedly Karlsson is willing) to waive their NMC. Anything is possible and it is really up to the player, some are easily convinced others stick to the contract they negotiated. I wouldn't let a NMC or a NTC get in the way of asking the player if they would waive. If I'm Tre , I'm asking both JT and MM if they would be willing to waive for the right conditions. they say no, peace we live with the contracts and move on...

Which of those were in Marners situation?
Hometown/favourite team, contender, playing with your buddies that you were drafted with.

 

[Dreakmur]

It would not be wise to let the 7th highest scorer in the last 6 years walk for nothing. You keep him.

Yes, let’s keep him and invest 11.5 million into the 10th most important position in the lineup. Then we can cheap out on much more important positions. #capmanagement

 

[Dreakmur]

Which of those were in Marners situation?
Hometown/favourite team, contender, playing with your buddies that you were drafted with.

Contender? Marner isn’t in that situation….

 

[ACC1224]

Contender? Marner isn’t in that situation….

He would go by his beliefs not yours.