Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[Dekes For Days]

I’m frankly surprised anybody would claim insight into what playoff teams do for dinner on the road…

I'm frankly surprised anybody would care what playoff teams do for dinner on the road in the first place...
Toronto hockey media gonna Toronto hockey media, I guess.

 

[4thline]

That extension happened after the trade went through. Wasn't a sign and trade. Kings likely got to talk with his agent for a bit, which a team would likely be given in a Nylander trade scenario

Both trade and signing happened on June 29th. While it wasn't a sign and trade, the parameters of the deal were in place, LA knew that they were getting 8 years of Fiala at a number they were ok with, that's what they gave up a 1st and Faber for.

If a team can get a deal in principle in place with Nylander before a trade, sure work up from the Fiala value. But without the he's a rental

 

[Stephen]

I'm frankly surprised anybody would care what playoff teams do for dinner on the road in the first place...
Toronto hockey media gonna Toronto hockey media, I guess.

I personally don’t care, but also wouldn’t claim knowledge on what is customary when that information isn’t available.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I personally don’t care, but also wouldn’t claim knowledge on what is customary when that information isn’t available.

Yes, people shouldn't be making claims that the Leafs are doing something abnormal without evidence. That's what I said in the first place. You seem to agree.

 

[andora]

Yes, people shouldn't be making claims that the Leafs are doing something abnormal without evidence. That's what I said in the first place. You seem to agree.

Is Schenn's quote about this not evidence as abnormal?

Or has schenn just been lucky to play on dinner teams

 

[Stephen]

Yes, people shouldn't be making claims that the Leafs are doing something abnormal without evidence. That's what I said in the first place. You seem to agree.

No, I don’t agree with your claim that most playoff teams don’t have group dining arrangements on the road.

You wouldn’t have that information one way or another to be able to establish what is conventional for winning and successful playoff teams and where the Leafs sit on that behavioural spectrum.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is Schenn's quote about this not evidence as abnormal?

Tampa doing something doesn't mean everybody does something, or needs to do something.

No, I don’t agree with your claim that most playoff teams don’t have group dining arrangements on the road.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that.
If you're suggesting that we "wouldn’t have that information one way or another to be able to establish what is conventional for winning and successful playoff teams and where the Leafs sit on that behavioural spectrum", then I'm not sure why you're responding to me, and not the individuals who claimed what was conventional for winning and successful playoff teams, and that how the Leafs operated was abnormal and harmful to our success.
Seems like kind of a pointless discussion anyway, since whatever we did during the pandemic, we had "group dining arrangements" this past year.

 

[Americanadian]

Regardless the point of the earlier post wasn't necessarily to debate the merits of Nylander v Fiala, rather to situate trade value. A return for Nylander st minimum should equal that earlier trade, and I'd expect a greater return if it actually came to it

I would expect less strictly due to contract status.

 

[Stephen]

Tampa doing something doesn't mean everybody does something, or needs to do something.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that.
If you're suggesting that we "wouldn’t have that information one way or another to be able to establish what is conventional for winning and successful playoff teams and where the Leafs sit on that behavioural spectrum", then I'm not sure why you're responding to me, and not the individuals who claimed what was conventional for winning and successful playoff teams, and that how the Leafs operated was abnormal and harmful to our success.
Seems like kind of a pointless discussion anyway, since whatever we did during the pandemic, we had "group dining arrangements" this past year.

You personally made the claim that “you’d be surprised…” the number of teams that don’t have whatever group dining arrangements on the road. And then cited media sensationalism for blowing whatever the Leafs do and don’t do out of proportion.

Well, based on that quote, how many teams do go out for dinner on the road? How do the Leafs stack up?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You personally made the claim that “you’d be surprised…” the number of teams that don’t have whatever group dining arrangements on the road. And then cited media sensationalism for blowing whatever the Leafs do and don’t do out of proportion.

"I think you'd be surprised at how many teams don't do full team dinners for every road playoff game." =/= "Most playoff teams don’t have group dining arrangements on the road". And while incorrectly representing my statement, you seemed to miss posts actually making definitive claims about what was conventional, and that how the Leafs operated was abnormal and harmful to our success. I'm not sure how somebody who openly states that we don't know could argue that this media story is anything but sensationalist.

how many teams do go out for dinner on the road? How do the Leafs stack up?

I thought you didn't care about dinner.
You just said we don't know. Ok. So that means you and everybody else have no basis to say that how the Leafs did it years ago was wrong.

 

[Stephen]

"I think you'd be surprised at how many teams don't do full team dinners for every road playoff game." =/= "Most playoff teams don’t have group dining arrangements on the road". And while incorrectly representing my statement, you seemed to miss posts actually making definitive claims about what was conventional, and that how the Leafs operated was abnormal and harmful to our success. I'm not sure how somebody who openly states that we don't know could argue that this media story is anything but sensationalist.

You just said we don't know. That means you and everybody else have no basis to say that how the Leafs did it years ago was wrong.
My question to all this dinner stuff is - who cares?

So what’s the surprise?

My point is if you don’t know what playoff teams typically do on the road in the playoffs, you can’t establish whether the Leafs are typical or atypical in their culture. So by extension, you can’t write off what is reported as “Toronto media.”

 

[andora]

So what’s the surprise?

My point is if you don’t know what playoff teams typically do on the road in the playoffs, you can’t establish whether the Leafs are typical or atypical in their culture. So by extension, you can’t write off what is reported as “Toronto media.”

Lol

Spin doctor

Schenns quote doesnt count but the few contrived sound bites about Matthew's leadership count

 

[Dekes For Days]

My point is if you don’t know what playoff teams typically do on the road in the playoffs, you can’t establish whether the Leafs are typical or atypical in their culture. So by extension, you can’t write off what is reported as “Toronto media.”

My point is if you don’t know what playoff teams typically do on the road in the playoffs, you can’t establish whether the Leafs are typical or atypical in their culture. So by extension, you can’t claim that what they did is wrong. Heck, even if we did know if it was typical or atypical, that still wouldn't mean it was right or wrong, because different people and teams have different things work best for them. I think they know what works best for them more than you do.

As for Toronto hockey media, most of the sensationalist narratives they create for clicks should be written off.

 

[Stephen]

Lol

Spin doctor

Schenns quote doesnt count but the few contrived sound bites about Matthew's leadership count

Until the Leafs actually do great things in the playoffs questions will hang around the team as to why they don’t have success commensurate to their famed talent level.

Criticisms and questions will hang around. What are they missing. What are they doing wrong? Whose fault is it? Some of it will be valid and some of it will be noise.

I just don’t see any point in refuting every line of criticism. The only conclusion you’d draw is there’s nothing to improve on. But doesn’t solve the original question of why they don’t have success. Around and around we go.

 

[conFABulator]

I'm open to moving Nylander if there is a good deal to be had...at some point, you need to fix the culture.

That being said, I'm the wrong guy to ask, I have soured on the majority of the team.



The thing with the names you mentioned is that they at least won rounds somewhat consistently, even if they got stalled in round 2 like Ovechkin and MacKinnon, the Leafs have won 1 round in 7 years with these guys. Stamkos went on a run early and they were close quite often. Pietrangelo with the Blues had at least a final 4 appearance to my memory.

I know the value is tough but sometimes it becomes insanity to think something that hasn't worked at all, will suddenly start working.

I am not saying we should just run it all back. Those teams made changes too. We need to be looking at that for sure.

I also think that our inability to get past the first round has had some thing to do with getting Tampa and Boston.

Not getting past Montreal was the inexcusable one though.

My larger point if we have to make good hockey moves it we are moving out our core guys. Trading Tkachuk did not work out for Calgary and will set them back for sure.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Until the Leafs actually do great things in the playoffs questions will hang around the team as to why they don’t have success commensurate to their famed talent level.
Criticisms and questions will hang around. What are they missing. What are they doing wrong? Whose fault is it? Some of it will be valid and some of it will be noise.
I just don’t see any point in refuting every line of criticism. The only conclusion you’d draw is there’s nothing to improve on. But doesn’t solve the original question of why they don’t have success. Around and around we go.

It's absolutely valid to have questions and criticisms. When those turn into bold claims about our team, our players, our GM, the social dynamics of the team, etc., with no corresponding evidence, that requires pushback. Nobody would conclude that there's nothing to improve on. There is always something to improve on. But if we want to draw real conclusions and solve the original question of why we haven't had success in the playoffs yet, I'd say we should explore that instead of wasting time reading way too much into road team dinner configurations years ago during a pandemic - something that you even admit we can't contextualize.

 

[TheGroceryStick]

Time for a Dubois-like return on Nylander? Just for fun.

Mctavish
Henrique
Jones
2nd (Boston)

For

Nylander (signed 8yrs)
Jarnkrok
Steeves

Domi-Matthews-Marner
McTavish-Tavares-Bertuzzi
Knies-Henrique-Robertson
Jones-Kampf-Lafferty
Reaves

 

[ULF_55]

When comparing Nylander to Meier using their career PT/GP is a flawed method to look at it. You ignore all context of who the players are today.

D'ohhhhh

We can do a full work-up if you want.

You'd think Meier was the 2nd. coming of Messier if you listen to people here.

 

[notDatsyuk]

D'ohhhhh

We can do a full work-up if you want.

You'd think Meier was the 2nd. coming of Messier if you listen to people here.

Last two years Nylander has more goals (52 to 46) and assists (108 to 101) at even strength, despite about 5% less ice time.

In 538 minutes of PP time Willy had 59 points. In 432 minutes of PP time Timo had 41 points.

 

[andora]

Last two years Nylander has more goals (52 to 46) and assists (108 to 101) at even strength, despite about 5% less ice time.

In 538 minutes of PP time Willy had 59 points. In 432 minutes of PP time Timo had 41 points.

Not much difference throwing in some other factors in my opinion

 

[supermann_98]

Time for a Dubois-like return on Nylander? Just for fun.

Mctavish
Henrique
Jones
2nd (Boston)

For

Nylander
Jarnkrok
Steeves

Domi-Matthews-Marner
McTavish-Tavares-Bertuzzi
Knies-Henrique-Robertson
Jones-Kampf-Lafferty
Reaves

McTavish would be a dream return but Anaheim would be crazy to move him. He's the next really good power forward in this league imo

 

[ULF_55]

Not much difference throwing in some other factors in my opinion

Yeah, there really isn't much difference in value.

They are different players and you'd be getting a very good player with either one.

It will be nice for Meier to be playing meaningful games again.

 

[Stephen]

Yeah, there really isn't much difference in value.

View attachment 737170
View attachment 737172

They are different players and you'd be getting a very good player with either one.

It will be nice for Meier to be playing meaningful games again.

I get the sense people are bigging up Timo Meier for showing some loyalty to the New Jersey Devils after only being in town for a couple of months as opposed to our guys who seem to squabble over everything. A Meier/Nylander comparison has never been out there before.

 

[ULF_55]

I get the sense people are bigging up Timo Meier for showing some loyalty to the New Jersey Devils after only being in town for a couple of months as opposed to our guys who seem to squabble over everything. A Meier/Nylander comparison has never been out there before.

That would be kind of meaningless wouldn't it?

Loyalty to a team you have almost zero history with.

He signed for the dollars.

 

[LeafEgo]

I get the sense people are bigging up Timo Meier for showing some loyalty to the New Jersey Devils after only being in town for a couple of months as opposed to our guys who seem to squabble over everything. A Meier/Nylander comparison has never been out there before.

Timo would slot in quite nicely on the Leafs roster so that probably gives his value a boost amongst the fanbase. He was also the top trade chip last deadline and that's good for branding.