Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[andora]

No cap space also restricted trade possibilities. Whether they never touched another UFA they had young assets and all the the picks eventually dealt from 2019 to 2022 to acquire high value players who weren't on expensive UFA deals. I feel like KD had just sat down at the table with a big pile of chips in front of of him and felt a need to make the big splash and that was what was available. And with the extra millions he wasn't expecting to spend on the Big 3 he could deal with the Marleau money except it never played out that way.

Making two lame bets on back to back off suits in kapanen and johnsson didnt help

 

[notDatsyuk]

Think this is somewhat overstated. Looking at the trajectory of the Leafs they’ve been in a holding pattern since 2020 and I think one has to look at their relative position in division, conference and league to determine whether they are moving forward or backwards relative to others.

They have basically failed to build on their program since the Tavares signing in 2018. Nothing significant has been added to the program on a long term basis since then they would count as a building block. Maybe Knies can be that. Maybe some of the acquisitions this summer can grow into a long term role.

I assume you are referring to his article and not my comment.

Yes, somewhat overstated, but certainly no more so than any number of other sports commentators' takes, both positive and negative.

The nature of the beast.

 

[LeafEgo]

We had Matthews and Kadri. That's it. In the entire organization. That was or had any hope of being a capable NHL center. Nylander is not a center.
And Kadri outside of his fluke 2021-2022 was not exactly your ideal cup caliber 2C, and he wasn't much use suspended.

It was something that needed solving, as well as replacing the impact of our departing depth that we had no internal replacements for. We didn't need to solve it with Tavares, but solving it in other ways would have made us worse and been quite expensive itself. And probably still would have required term.

We didn't "desperately attack free agency". We had a rare opportunity to add an elite player that wanted to come here for a reasonable deal, that filled a lot of holes and elevated our team during a competitive phase, right before a skyrocketing cap. The pandemic and resulting impacts are the only reason it's even a thought. Otherwise, we'd probably be talking about how good of a signing Tavares turned out to be, and how well he's held up compared to past UFA signings. I'm not sure what "franchise altering piece" you were holding out for.

And the program didn't fall apart. Even with all of the unprecedented obstacles, we had some of the best teams this franchise has ever seen, and certainly the best in the cap era.

That was a fine start at C, how did our D look? We made the mistake of not recognizing what we were at the time. I feel like you are still making that mistake now even though we've seen the whole thing play out.

On one hand the teams prospects were so high and we were right to land JT and make a run for the cup, and on the other 'solving it in other ways would have been worse'. How could we realistically have done any worse?

JT is a great player, was paid fair value, has lived up to his contract, and his availability was rare. But upgrading 2C was not the priority problem in remaining competitive and further developing the team and we weren't in a position to launch into cup mode or make a JT acquisition work.

For the Leafs, the drawbacks of the acquisition outweighed the value. That's been made abundantly clear. On the island, he might have had a cup now.

The disproportionate impact of the pandemic on the Leafs was not significant enough to explain away very much of what's happened since.

 

[IPS]

Kadri outside of his fluke 2021-2022 was not exactly your ideal cup caliber 2C

"Kadri was not a cup caliber #2C outside of the year where he actually won the cup playing #2C."

 

[Dekes For Days]

"Kadri was not a cup caliber #2C outside of the year where he actually won the cup playing #2C."

A ~55 point, PP-reliant center that's below average defensively and gets suspended a lot is not an ideal or cup-caliber 2C. And he didn't win a cup in any of the years he was that.
He won a cup in the one outlier year where he inexplicably doubled his pace of production - which made him a cup-caliber 2C in that one specific year.
Not sure what you find funny about that.

 

[hamzarocks]

Why not look at Brodie, you know the guy we signed the same summer instead of Pietrangelo to do the same job? Brodie + Kerfoot + Holl vs Pietrangelo + league min LW + league min RD is a wash on cap.

This team can't win with 3 10M+ players adding Pietrangelo at 10-11M would have sunk us even worse. Pietrangelo doesn't come to Toronto for 8.5M so his current deal with VGK isn't going work. He would want more money to come here

He also was declining and has went from a top 5ishD to top 20 in his 3 years in VGK.

Pietrangelo only worked if nylander or marner went for future assets

 

[IPS]

A ~55 point, PP-reliant center that's below average defensively and gets suspended a lot is not an ideal or cup-caliber 2C. And he didn't win a cup in any of the years he was that.
He won a cup in the one outlier year where he inexplicably doubled his pace of production - which made him a cup-caliber 2C in that one specific year.
Not sure what you find funny about that.

Believe me I've done the Kadri debate 6000 times with an older poster on here named Pookie.

You and him would get along real well on this one, believe me.

 

[LaPlante94]

A ~55 point, PP-reliant center that's below average defensively and gets suspended a lot is not an ideal or cup-caliber 2C. And he didn't win a cup in any of the years he was that.
He won a cup in the one outlier year where he inexplicably doubled his pace of production - which made him a cup-caliber 2C in that one specific year.
Not sure what you find funny about that.

A 30 goal scorer 60 point+ C making 4.5 mil as your 2C is an ideal cup caliber 2C. PP reliant C I think you are confusing Tavares and Kadri because Tavares literally got 50% of his production on the PP while Kadri had 29 PP points in that 87 point season you say he was so PP reliant on.

 

[hamzarocks]

Believe me I've done the Kadri debate 6000 times with an older poster on here named Pookie.

You and him would get along real well on this one, believe me.

Pookie hated Kadri but he also hated dubas lol

 

[ULF_55]

A 30 goal scorer 60 point+ C making 4.5 mil as your 2C is an ideal cup caliber 2C. PP reliant C I think you are confusing Tavares and Kadri because Tavares literally got 50% of his production on the PP while Kadri had 29 PP points in that 87 point season you say he was so PP reliant on.

Whether you like Kadri or not he's a decent 2nd. line center.

Of course he had an outlier of a season at the perfect time to cash in.

 

[LaPlante94]

Whether you like Kadri or not he's a decent 2nd. line center.

Of course he had an outlier of a season at the perfect time to cash in.

mhm, it's crazy because these are the same posters who'll tell you that Kerfoot was worth his contract when he was here.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A 30 goal scorer 60 point+ C making 4.5 mil as your 2C is an ideal cup caliber 2C.

From 2015-2021, he paced for 25 goals, 53 points per 82 (and went back to pretty much exactly that after his fluke season).
He was below average defensively, and got suspended a lot, including in the playoffs.
That's not an ideal cup-caliber 2C, even if he was mildly underpaid.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That was a fine start at C, how did our D look?

Our NHL-level defense was also bad, but we had less immediate options to solve it, and more future potential in that position.
We had spent our 1st and 2nd round picks on defensemen in each of the past 2 years, we had Dermott taking his first steps in the NHL, Holl in the wings, etc.
But we also went to work on that, bringing Muzzin in in 2018-2019, dumping Zaitsev and moving away from Hainsey and Gardiner in 2019, and trying to bring in Brodie, before eventually bringing him in in 2020. Both center and defense improved drastically, pretty quickly.

We made the mistake of not recognizing what we were at the time. I feel like you are still making that mistake now even though we've seen the whole thing play out.
On one hand the teams prospects were so high and we were right to land JT and make a run for the cup, and on the other 'solving it in other ways would have been worse'. How could we realistically have done any worse?

I think both the team and I recognize what we were at the time and now. We had a great young core that were way too good to be drafting in the lottery, but we were a bit of a mess otherwise, and could easily find ourselves stuck in the bubble team purgatory without effective management. So instead of taking steps back and into that potential purgatory, we took the opportunity to add an elite player at a good time and price that filled holes, and give ourselves a chance to win, like every team would.

What do you mean how could we have done any worse? Take a look at pretty much 90% of any UFA signings list.

JT is a great player, was paid fair value, has lived up to his contract, and his availability was rare. But upgrading 2C was not the priority problem in remaining competitive and further developing the team and we weren't in a position to launch into cup mode or make a JT acquisition work.
For the Leafs, the drawbacks of the acquisition outweighed the value. That's been made abundantly clear. On the island, he might have had a cup now.
The disproportionate impact of the pandemic on the Leafs was not significant enough to explain away very much of what's happened since.

2C was a priority problem, and so was the departing offense that Tavares covered. If you didn't think we were ready to improve our team towards cup competitiveness, then I'm not sure what you were waiting for. There was no turning back into a rebuild. We were far past that. And it's not like we had impending prospects. So it's either that or being a forever bubble team.

The Tavares acquisition has worked to improve the quality of our team, and fill the holes we needed filled, and the only reason it didn't work even better was entirely the pandemic.
We have a top tier team, and set franchise records. If you're referring to exclusively the playoffs, I'm not sure how you can say the pandemic impacts weren't significant enough to make a difference, considering the tiny margins we've had.

 

[andora]

Our NHL-level defense was also bad, but we had less immediate options to solve it, and more future potential in that position.
We had spent our 1st and 2nd round picks on defensemen in each of the past 2 years, we had Dermott taking his first steps in the NHL, Holl in the wings, etc.
But we also went to work on that, bringing Muzzin in in 2018-2019, dumping Zaitsev and moving away from Hainsey and Gardiner in 2019, and trying to bring in Brodie, before eventually bringing him in in 2020. Both center and defense improved drastically, pretty quickly.

I think both the team and I recognize what we were at the time and now. We had a great young core that were way too good to be drafting in the lottery, but we were a bit of a mess otherwise, and could easily find ourselves stuck in the bubble team purgatory without effective management. So instead of taking steps back and into that potential purgatory, we took the opportunity to add an elite player at a good time and price that filled holes, and give ourselves a chance to win, like every team would.

What do you mean how could we have done any worse? Take a look at pretty much 90% of any UFA signings list.

2C was a priority problem, and so was the departing offense that Tavares covered. If you didn't think we were ready to improve our team towards cup competitiveness, then I'm not sure what you were waiting for. There was no turning back into a rebuild. We were far past that. And it's not like we had impending prospects. So it's either that or being a forever bubble team.

The Tavares acquisition has worked to improve the quality of our team, and fill the holes we needed filled, and the only reason it didn't work even better was entirely the pandemic.
We have a top tier team, and set franchise records. If you're referring to exclusively the playoffs, I'm not sure how you can say the pandemic impacts weren't significant enough to make a difference, considering the tiny margins we've had.

Steps back into potential purgatory?

We hadnt even got up to a fast jog yet and that is an alternative to not signing tavares?.. stepping back?

Purgatory that is so far to the other end of the spectrum that i feel there is a shitload of middle area 'context' being ignored.. sorry not ignored, glossed over? Not mentioned? Silenced?

 

[Sypher04]

Say what you will about how it’s ended up, but I think in that moment you’d be hard pressed to find an alternate GM who doesn’t sign Tavares to come here.

 

[Captain Crunch]

A ~55 point, PP-reliant center that's below average defensively and gets suspended a lot is not an ideal or cup-caliber 2C. And he didn't win a cup in any of the years he was that.
He won a cup in the one outlier year where he inexplicably doubled his pace of production - which made him a cup-caliber 2C in that one specific year.
Not sure what you find funny about that.

From 2015-2021, he paced for 25 goals, 53 points per 82 (and went back to pretty much exactly that after his fluke season).
He was below average defensively, and got suspended a lot, including in the playoffs.
That's not an ideal cup-caliber 2C, even if he was mildly underpaid.

But it made more sense to dish out $11 million for a #2 center. It would have made so much more sense to find another #2 center at a much lower cost, and use that extra to strengthen up defensively. Doesn’t matter that he was on the market.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Steps back into potential purgatory?
We hadnt even got up to a fast jog yet and that is an alternative to not signing tavares?.. stepping back?

We had made the playoffs 2 years in a row, had a bit of a mirage of an improvement in 2017-2018, and people were expecting big things.
Stepping back into a phase of maybe not making the playoffs, and not being any significant cup threat if we did, would not have gone over well with the fans or ownership.
Lou set us full steam ahead. We were not stopping and turning back with a top tier core stepping into their primes.

But it made more sense to dish out $11 million for a #2 center. It would have made so much more sense to find another #2 center at a much lower cost, and use that extra to strengthen up defensively.

It made sense to pay 11m to an elite 1C, fill big holes, and elevate our team. And it didn't stop us from strengthening up defensively.

 

[Bluebear]

I don't buy the "tavares was the problem with the Leafs build" arguments. For years when the Leafs were crappy the board was always arguing that depth down the middle and strong D/G is the reciepe.
I think its the top heavy with overpaid winger build that hurts the depth building, not Tavares. I think lots of GM's could put together a cup winner with Tavares at #2 C on his contract with the play he delivered throughout it.

Plus like has been mentioned most people would have signed him if they had the chance.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Yep. If we didn't sign Tavares, we still had to replace that impact we were losing in the 2018 offseason in other ways, and get more than 2 NHL caliber centers in the organization. Which probably would have cost us more than Tavares, considering that even just re-signing a departing Bozak and JVR would have cost 12. People seem to forget that Tavares wasn't as much about adding on to our offense so much as it was about a more efficient way to replace and improve on the offense we were losing.

We're not just going to sit on an unused 10m for 2 or 3 years while our team gets worse waiting for an extremely unlikely scenario of players nobody expected to be available not only being available but willing to sign here at a price that worked for us.

The idea seems to be that we needed to not sign Tavares, so we could improve our defense. But signing Tavares didn't stop us from adding big defensive pieces like Muzzin and Brodie, and massively improving our defense as fast as we realistically could have, Tavares or not. So it's a weird argument.

After looking back at that year, I have to agree with this. There were no other UFAs available who would have come even close to what JT has done in his time here. The problem was that management made a mistake with Matthews’ and Marner’s contracts. Too much money too soon.

 

[Cleetus]

Kadri you cant win with that, come on now! lmao! Calling him a fluke is the most delusional thing ive ever read..... maybe watch him once in a while he is a good hockey player..... one of the worst trades ive ever seen when useless Dubas traded him for absolute garbage, so glad that joke is gone!

 

[nuck]

Say what you will about how it’s ended up, but I think in that moment you’d be hard pressed to find an alternate GM who doesn’t sign Tavares to come here.

I would have to ask why you would think that was likely. This wasn't Stammer at $8.5M, it was an $11M 37 goal guy they added to push their $4.5M 32 guy out of the top 6. Who else is building a team that way in the cap world?

Every quality UFA has multiple suitors because they are already developed and cost no assets but one by one clubs drop out because the salary commitment outweighs the need. The Leafs need was not nearly as great as the Kings or Sharks who were watching their windows close. The walk away number should have reflected that. You buy something you don't really need if the price is great, not just because you can afford it.

I guess more on point, who else, looking at the quality of the Leafs defense roster in 17-18, would think this is where the major cap allotment was best spent. They had the up and coming Big 3 along with a 32g center the same age as JT, and Kapanen and Johnsson knocking on the door so they were kind of stacked with scoring forwards. JT isn't Iginla or Messier or Benn, so he dioesn't really give them a much different look. They were a 105 point club with the forwards they had.

You would be assuming that most of the other GMs in the league see a top 6 loaded with all skill and no crunch as a viable path but nobody else seems to be allocating their cap that way. I think at that moment, KD made a rookie GM move and that most GMs would have walked away as soon as the bidding hit $10M.

 

[LaPlante94]

From 2015-2021, he paced for 25 goals, 53 points per 82 (and went back to pretty much exactly that after his fluke season).
He was below average defensively, and got suspended a lot, including in the playoffs.
That's not an ideal cup-caliber 2C, even if he was mildly underpaid.

2015/16- 24 year old Kadri leads team in scoring with next best being PA Parenteau. Quite the talented roster he had there.

2016/17- Kadri hits that 30 goal mark and 60 point mark. Wonder what changed. Looks like Matthews, Nylander and Marner being on the roster helped.

2017/18- Another 30+ goal season and almost 60 points

2018/19- Tavares joins the team and Babcock has him playing 3rd line C and would give him the tougher matchups as well. Scoring dipped but he wasn't used for his offence like he should be. When he got to play with Nylander eventually and not stuck with guys like Kapanen, Johnsson, Brown, Ennis, Marleau and whoever else they looked good together.

2019/20- 36 points in 51 games which is very good and I'm assuming this is the season that was cut short because of Covid?

2020/21- Another short season due to Covid restrictions where he puts up 32 points in 56 games.

All I see is that he played well when he got to play with other good offensive players and when he really took off for that 87 point season he also got much more PP time instead of being used on PP2 or splitting time between PPs like Babcock did here when he was the coach. I'm not arguing that signing Tavares was a mistake but to say that Kadri isn't a legit #2C on a cup contender especially at that 4.5 mil salary is just crazy. Also, the things that went uncalled in that 1 game Kadri got suspended in was just stupid so the fact Kadri even got suspended for that is dumb because DeBrusk elbowed Dermott in the face that game and hit Kadri with a knee on knee. The suspension the year before was warranted though.

 

[Stephen]

Kadri you cant win with that, come on now! lmao! Calling him a fluke is the most delusional thing ive ever read..... maybe watch him once in a while he is a good hockey player..... one of the worst trades ive ever seen when useless Dubas traded him for absolute garbage, so glad that joke is gone!

Of all the transactions Dubas ever made, all the bets on all the randoms coming in, nothing panned out for the Leafs quite like Nazem Kadri did for the Avalanche in 2021-22.

 

[LeafEgo]

2015/16- 24 year old Kadri leads team in scoring with next best being PA Parenteau. Quite the talented roster he had there.

2016/17- Kadri hits that 30 goal mark and 60 point mark. Wonder what changed. Looks like Matthews, Nylander and Marner being on the roster helped.

2017/18- Another 30+ goal season and almost 60 points

2018/19- Tavares joins the team and Babcock has him playing 3rd line C and would give him the tougher matchups as well. Scoring dipped but he wasn't used for his offence like he should be. When he got to play with Nylander eventually and not stuck with guys like Kapanen, Johnsson, Brown, Ennis, Marleau and whoever else they looked good together.

2019/20- 36 points in 51 games which is very good and I'm assuming this is the season that was cut short because of Covid?

2020/21- Another short season due to Covid restrictions where he puts up 32 points in 56 games.

All I see is that he played well when he got to play with other good offensive players and when he really took off for that 87 point season he also got much more PP time instead of being used on PP2 or splitting time between PPs like Babcock did here when he was the coach. I'm not arguing that signing Tavares was a mistake but to say that Kadri isn't a legit #2C on a cup contender especially at that 4.5 mil salary is just crazy. Also, the things that went uncalled in that 1 game Kadri got suspended in was just stupid so the fact Kadri even got suspended for that is dumb because DeBrusk elbowed Dermott in the face that game and hit Kadri with a knee on knee. The suspension the year before was warranted though.

Dubie led his troops to a slaughter game 2 vs Bruins and Kadri short-circuited. I wouldn't absolve him of that brand of malice but the whole circus should have never happened. His Avs suspension wouldn't have been a suspension either if it wasn't Kadri.

I think we're also forgetting Kadri didn't have just one magical run. He played even better for the Avs in a previous playoffs. Warrior.

Most likely he would have been our best player each of the last four playoffs, save maybe Rielly.

 

[smitty10]

How good is Caleb Jones? Fairly sure he's going to be signed.