Trades and Free Agency Discussion - The Dog Days of Summer

[andora]

Dubie led his troops to a slaughter game 2 vs Bruins and Kadri short-circuited. I wouldn't absolve him of that brand of malice but the whole circus should have never happened. His Avs suspension wouldn't have been a suspension either if it wasn't Kadri.

I think we're also forgetting Kadri didn't have just one magical run. He played even better for the Avs in a previous playoffs. Warrior.

Most likely he would have been our best player each of the last four playoffs, save maybe Rielly.

I will die on the hill that Kadri would have been a leader for us the last 3 years of that contract

I still curse the idea of being able to have Naz nylander and a guy like moore

 

[Dekes For Days]

2015/16- 24 year old Kadri leads team in scoring with next best being PA Parenteau. Quite the talented roster he had there.
2016/17- Kadri hits that 30 goal mark and 60 point mark. Wonder what changed. Looks like Matthews, Nylander and Marner being on the roster helped.
2017/18- Another 30+ goal season and almost 60 points
2018/19- Tavares joins the team and Babcock has him playing 3rd line C and would give him the tougher matchups as well. Scoring dipped but he wasn't used for his offence like he should be. When he got to play with Nylander eventually and not stuck with guys like Kapanen, Johnsson, Brown, Ennis, Marleau and whoever else they looked good together.
2019/20- 36 points in 51 games which is very good and I'm assuming this is the season that was cut short because of Covid?
2020/21- Another short season due to Covid restrictions where he puts up 32 points in 56 games.

That's a really long way of saying that from 2015-2021, he paced for 25 goals, 53 points per 82, was below average defensively, and got suspended a lot. That's not a cup caliber 2C.

All I see is that he played well when he got to play with other good offensive players and when he really took off for that 87 point season he also got much more PP time instead of being used on PP2 or splitting time between PPs like Babcock did here when he was the coach.

He's played with a bunch of good offensive players, and still been the same ~55 point guy. He's gotten similar PP time to that year, and still was that ~55 point guy.
Also, Kadri was the primary shooter on PP1 under Babcock, which is a crazy sentence when you have the best goal scorer in the league on your team.

Also, the things that went uncalled in that 1 game Kadri got suspended in was just stupid so the fact Kadri even got suspended for that is dumb because DeBrusk elbowed Dermott in the face that game and hit Kadri with a knee on knee.

I agree. One of the worst officiated games in the history of the sport. But that didn't change the fact that Kadri was going to keep getting targeted, and at an increasing rate.

 

[LeafEgo]

I agree. One of the worst officiated games in the history of the sport. But that didn't change the fact that Kadri was going to keep getting targeted, and at an increasing rate.

Hockey is a dangerous sport, it always has been, like boxing. Eventually it won't be, but until such time it requires adequate supervision and hockey code.

We put a toddler in charge and during his first playoff run multiple players were almost decapitated in game 2 - one through the ice and one by borderline guillotine.

The refs were not prepared.

*Kadri most recently wasn't targeted for suspension in the Binnington fiasco. Just playing hard it seems.

 

[LaPlante94]

That's a really long way of saying that from 2015-2021, he paced for 25 goals, 53 points per 82, was below average defensively, and got suspended a lot. That's not a cup caliber 2C.

He's played with a bunch of good offensive players, and still been the same ~55 point guy. He's gotten similar PP time to that year, and still was that ~55 point guy.
Also, Kadri was the primary shooter on PP1 under Babcock, which is a crazy sentence when you have the best goal scorer in the league on your team.

I agree. One of the worst officiated games in the history of the sport. But that didn't change the fact that Kadri was going to keep getting targeted, and at an increasing rate.

No that's context on why his season in Colorado wasn't a fluke and that if he can play an offensive role with better offensive players those are the results he can put up.

The years he's played with good players is when he's had very good seasons and you try and use 2 covid shortened seasons and 1 season on the Leafs where the next 2 best scorers after Kadri were Parenteau and Komarov to say he's he's not a cup caliber #2C. We can look at recent cup winnders and their 2nd line centers and see how their production compares to Kadris

2023 Vegas- Stephenson 16 goals and 65 points. Eichel missed almost 20 games and Stone missed half the season so he probably played 1C and Eichel's wing quite a bit. Karlsson you could say maybe played 2C just as much and he scored 14 goals and 53 points.


2021 Tampa Bay- Tbh I don't remember who was their 2nd line C so I'll just list 3 that could of possibly been it based on ATOI.

Stamkos- 17 goals 34 points (Think he was more of a winger at this point who took faceoffs in certain situations)
Cirelli- 9 goals 22 points
Gourde- 17 goals 36 points (Gourde was part of that 3rd line that everyone talked about non stop so I know he wasn't the 2C but his numbers were than Cirellis so I included him)

2020 Tampa Bay Pretty much the same as previous. Looks like Cirelli based on faceoffs and ATOI but I'll put up Stamkos numbers as well since he did take a lot of faceoffs and same icetime.

Cirelli- 16 goals 44 points
Stamkos 29 goals 66 points(Again, most likely a winger at this point)

2019 St Louis- Schenn 17 goals 54 points

2018 Washington Capitals- Backstrom 21 goals 70 points or Kuznetsov 27 goals 83 points

I believe the next 10 years is just Pittsburgh, LA and Chicago cups. Of those 3 teams I believe Malkin on Pittsburgh was the only one who put up good numbers and we all know he's pretty much a 1C on any other team. This 55 point average you keep throwing around seems to be the average but it seems like his 25 goal average you say seems to be above average from the looks of it.

Also, the entire PP thing, he got like 100 more total minutes of PP time on that Colorado team then what he usually got when he broke out that season. He played on a PP unit with Marner, Bozak and JVR while Matthews and Nylander were on the other so he didn't take away anything from Matthews since Babcock wanted to have 2 units that had legit threats and Matthews played just as much PP minutes in less games. He played the high bumper spot on the PP when Babcock finally decided to stack 1 PP unit after we signed Tavares.

So again, this thing about saying he's not a legit 2C on a cup caliber team is just insane.

 

[TopProspect91]

Hope the Leafs can free up some cash to either sign or PTO Danton Heinen. Feel like he would fit really well in our bottom six.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No that's context on why his season in Colorado wasn't a fluke and that if he can play an offensive role with better offensive players those are the results he can put up.

Except nothing about what you said suggests that 2021-2022 wasn't a fluke. Everything that happened to him in 2021-2022 happened to him in other years. He didn't even play with anybody particularly different in 2021-2022, or in a different role. If a player produces one way for their entire career, and then all of a sudden in one year, doubles their pace of production, and then goes right back to what they were, that is a fluke.

We can look at recent cup winnders and their 2nd line centers and see how their production compares to Kadris

Okay let's do that.
Kadri usual: 53 points per 82, below average defensively, constantly suspended
2023: 66 points per 82
2022: 100 points per 82
2021: 73 points per 82
2020: 95 points per 82
2019: 62 points per 82
2018: 86 points per 82
2017: 95 points per 82
2016: 83 points per 82

As you can see, normal Kadri does not live up to the 2Cs on Cup-winning teams.

Also, the entire PP thing, he got like 100 more total minutes of PP time on that Colorado team then what he usually got when he broke out that season.

Yes, he got an abundance of PP time in that season, and that helped his totals, but it's not anywhere close to explaining the difference in overall production pace of like 50 points.
He also got just 6 seconds of PP time less per game in 2019-2020, and was on their stacked 1st unit the whole time he was in Colorado.

Hockey is a dangerous sport, it always has been, like boxing. Eventually it won't be, but until such time it requires adequate supervision and hockey code.
We put a toddler in charge and during his first playoff run multiple players were almost decapitated in game 2 - one through the ice and one by borderline guillotine.
The refs were not prepared.
*Kadri most recently wasn't targeted for suspension in the Binnington fiasco. Just playing hard it seems.

We didn't have a "toddler in charge", and the refs being stupid and dangerous had nothing to do with who we had in charge anyway. The league was not going to allow the Leafs to go back home up 2-0 on Boston, at any cost, and Boston took advantage of that in every way possible. We know from the leaked emails how the league viewed Kadri. It made Kadri a liability, at least for us.

 

[Cor]

Hope the Leafs can free up some cash to either sign or PTO Danton Heinen. Feel like he would fit really well in our bottom six.

I am surprised he and ZAR haven't found homes yet.

 

[andora]

We had made the playoffs 2 years in a row, had a bit of a mirage of an improvement in 2017-2018, and people were expecting big things.
Stepping back into a phase of maybe not making the playoffs, and not being any significant cup threat if we did, would not have gone over well with the fans or ownership.
Lou set us full steam ahead. We were not stopping and turning back with a top tier core stepping into their primes.

It made sense to pay 11m to an elite 1C, fill big holes, and elevate our team. And it didn't stop us from strengthening up defensively.

I dont think that would have equalled purgatory in the slightest..

 

[fahad203]

I am surprised he and ZAR haven't found homes yet.

A lot of teams wants to see what they have in their prospect pools. If any of their home grown players can grab a spot

Zar isn't anything special. I would rather see what McMann has given an opportunity and I think most teams are in similar spot

 

[WTFMAN99]

I am surprised he and ZAR haven't found homes yet.

A lot of teams wants to see what they have in their prospect pools. If any of their home grown players can grab a spot

Zar isn't anything special. I would rather see what McMann has given an opportunity and I think most teams are in similar spot

You guys might know more than me on this but does McMann PK in the AHL? If not, Heinen or ZAR would take a forward job, the next forward addition needs that on their resume.

Currently only Kampf, Marner, Jarnkrok, Lafferty and maybe Holmberg can help us on that.

 

[fahad203]

You guys might know more than me on this but does McMann PK in the AHL? If not, Heinen or ZAR would take a forward job, the next forward addition needs that on their resume.

Currently only Kampf, Marner, Jarnkrok, Lafferty and maybe Holmberg can help us on that.

True but at some point Holmberg, steeves, and McMann needs to be molded into that role

All those 3 have paid their dues

 

[WTFMAN99]

True but at some point Holmberg, steeves, and McMann needs to be molded into that role

All those 3 have paid their dues

They need to be able to contribute though too, if they have that on their resume, I am open to them making the team out of camp but if they can't PK, sorry, no spot/room on this roster at the present.

I'd probably be asking for pk minutes with the Marlies as that's at least an in on the roster over the next while if I was a prospect / wanted a call up.

 

[LaPlante94]

Except nothing about what you said suggests that 2021-2022 wasn't a fluke. Everything that happened to him in 2021-2022 happened to him in other years. He didn't even play with anybody particularly different in 2021-2022, or in a different role. If a player produces one way for their entire career, and then all of a sudden in one year, doubles their pace of production, and then goes right back to what they were, that is a fluke.

Okay let's do that.
Kadri usual: 53 points per 82, below average defensively, constantly suspended
2023: 66 points per 82
2022: 100 points per 82
2021: 73 points per 82
2020: 95 points per 82
2019: 62 points per 82
2018: 86 points per 82
2017: 95 points per 82
2016: 83 points per 82

As you can see, normal Kadri does not live up to the 2Cs on Cup-winning teams.

Yes, he got an abundance of PP time in that season, and that helped his totals, but it's not anywhere close to explaining the difference in overall production pace of like 50 points.
He also got just 6 seconds of PP time less per game in 2019-2020, and was on their stacked 1st unit the whole time he was in Colorado.

We didn't have a "toddler in charge", and the refs being stupid and dangerous had nothing to do with who we had in charge anyway. The league was not going to allow the Leafs to go back home up 2-0 on Boston, at any cost, and Boston took advantage of that in every way possible. We know from the leaked emails how the league viewed Kadri. It made Kadri a liability, at least for us.

It suggests that when he plays with good players he produces. Mackinnon missed some time during a time Kadri was healthy and got to be the 1st line C and play with Rantanen and he delivered like he has done in the past playing with better players. If he was here filling in for Matthews as the 1C playin with Marner and Nylander and players like them he'd put up the same kind of numbers.

Uhm whose numbers are those that you're posting? Those aren't the number 2 centers on the cup winners or did you just ignore that? Those aren't Stephensons, Schenns or Cirellis averages at all.

Again, context can make things make sense. Mackinnon missing time means more OT 3on3 playing time with a guy like Rantanen. 5on5 he put up 48 points and on the PP he put up 29 which is only like 10 more than his usual amount or just a little more, but no Mackinnon means Kadri got to be the setup man which explains his increase in PP assists. Getting 10 points playing 3on3 or even 4on4 is quite a bit and maybe doesn't happen if Mackinnon plays all 82. This is the main point I've been telling you but you just ignore it, that if he can play in an offensive role with good offensive players he will produce. This is what a good cup contending 2C can do though when the 1C goes down, they can step up and the team doesn't miss a beat. He may have even put up better numbers in Colorado if Nischuskin could stay healthy.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

3.475 x 1 year for Swayman. Seems like Samsonov's contract clearly used as a basis

 

[TMLAM34]

3.475 x 1 year for Swayman. Seems like Samsonov's contract clearly used as a basis

A little surprised he got less than Samsonov when his pro career numbers have been better and he’s younger.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

A little surprised he got less than Samsonov when his pro career numbers have been better and he’s younger.

Ya I thought the same though I guess one guy was playing the #1G role last year while the other was playing in a tandem.

 

[IPS]

Okay let's do that.
Kadri usual: 53 points per 82, below average defensively, constantly suspended
2023: 66 points per 82
2022: 100 points per 82
2021: 73 points per 82
2020: 95 points per 82
2019: 62 points per 82
2018: 86 points per 82
2017: 95 points per 82
2016: 83 points per 82

Stamkos literally played 1 game in the 2020 playoffs and this guy is saying Tampa had a #2C who was averaging 95 points over 82 games. OH and btw Stamkos didn't play #2C in either cup winning year - he was a winger. Cirelli was the center. So great homework there Dekes.

I'd love to dissect the blatant dishonesty of the rest of the examples but what's the point.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It suggests that when he plays with good players he produces. Mackinnon missed some time during a time Kadri was healthy and got to be the 1st line C and play with Rantanen and he delivered like he has done in the past playing with better players.

The quality of players that he played with in 2021/22 was not meaningfully different than the quality of players he played with in other seasons. He spent a pretty similar proportion of his time with Rantanen as previous years. He had been with them on the PP the whole time in Colorado, and got similar PP ice time in a previous year. Literally everything about 2021-2022 had happened before, without him fluking into doubling his pace to a 100 point player. That fluke had nothing to do with a significant change in his situation.

Uhm whose numbers are those that you're posting? Those aren't the number 2 centers on the cup winners

They are the number 2 centers on the Cup winners. Stephenson, Kadri, Stamkos, Stamkos, Schenn, Kuznetsov, Malkin, Malkin.

Again, context can make things make sense. Mackinnon missing time means more OT 3on3 playing time with a guy like Rantanen.

Mackinnon in 2021-2022 missed like 5% of the season more than the previous two seasons that Kadri was on the team. Also, Kadri had one singular point at 3v3 that year. Context is important, but it's also important for your context to be accurate and fact-based, not just throwing darts at the wall and hoping one sticks.

Stamkos literally played 1 game in the 2020 playoffs and this guy is saying Tampa had a #2C who was averaging 95 points over 82 games. OH and btw Stamkos didn't play #2C in either cup winning year - he was a winger.

Stamkos did pace for 95 points per 82 that season, and he took some of the most faceoffs on the team.
If you don't want to count Stamkos because he was injured through most of that one playoffs, Cirelli paced for the same production as usual Kadri that year, while bringing high-end defense and no discipline issues, so still better. We also didn't have the benefit of a Vasilevsky to fall back on like Tampa.
And it's pretty rich to dismiss another player for not being available in a playoffs in a discussion about Kadri of all people.

 

[IPS]

Stamkos did pace for 95 points per 82 that season, and he took some of the most faceoffs on the team.
If you don't want to count Stamkos because he was injured through most of that one playoffs, Cirelli paced for the same production as usual Kadri that year, while bringing high-end defense and no discipline issues, so still better. We also didn't have the benefit of a Vasilevsky to fall back on like Tampa.

It's your criterea, you count Stamkos if your little heart desires. I guess it's one way to avoid admitting you were factually wrong.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's your criterea, you count Stamkos if your little heart desires. I guess it's one way to avoid admitting you were factually wrong.

I'm literally factually correct whether we count Stamkos or not, because Tampa actually had 3 centers better than usual Kadri in the year Stamkos was injured for the playoffs.

 

[IPS]

I'm literally factually correct whether we count Stamkos or not, because Tampa actually had 3 centers better than usual Kadri in the year Stamkos was injured for the playoffs.

You literally counted Stamkos as a "cup winning #2C" when he didn't play center in either of the cup runs.

Factually wrong.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You literally counted Stamkos as a "cup winning #2C" when he didn't play center in either of the cup runs.

Stamkos certainly took a lot of faceoffs for somebody you claim never played center.
And as I already pointed out, I was correct whether we count Stamkos or not.

 

[IPS]

Stamkos certainly took a lot of faceoffs for somebody you claim never played center.
And as I already pointed out, I was correct whether we count Stamkos or not.

You will remain factually incorrect until you edit the following stats to display the correct figures.

Okay let's do that.
Kadri usual: 53 points per 82, below average defensively, constantly suspended
2023: 66 points per 82
2022: 100 points per 82
2021: 73 points per 82
2020: 95 points per 82
2019: 62 points per 82
2018: 86 points per 82
2017: 95 points per 82
2016: 83 points per 82

 

[Dekes For Days]

You will remain factually incorrect until you edit the following stats to display the correct figures.

They already display the correct figures. If you'd like, you can cross out 2020 Stamkos - who committed the ultimate sin that Kadri would never ever do of not being available for a playoffs - and add in the other secondary center they had that year that was also better than usual Kadri. Doesn't actually change anything.

 

[LaPlante94]

The quality of players that he played with in 2021/22 was not meaningfully different than the quality of players he played with in other seasons. He spent a pretty similar proportion of his time with Rantanen as previous years. He had been with them on the PP the whole time in Colorado, and got similar PP ice time in a previous year. Literally everything about 2021-2022 had happened before, without him fluking into doubling his pace to a 100 point player. That fluke had nothing to do with a significant change in his situation.

They are the number 2 centers on the Cup winners. Stephenson, Kadri, Stamkos, Stamkos, Schenn, Kuznetsov, Malkin, Malkin.

Mackinnon in 2021-2022 missed like 5% of the season more than the previous two seasons that Kadri was on the team. Also, Kadri had one singular point at 3v3 that year. Context is important, but it's also important for your context to be accurate and fact-based, not just throwing darts at the wall and hoping one sticks.

Stamkos did pace for 95 points per 82 that season, and he took some of the most faceoffs on the team.
If you don't want to count Stamkos because he was injured through most of that one playoffs, Cirelli paced for the same production as usual Kadri that year, while bringing high-end defense and no discipline issues, so still better. We also didn't have the benefit of a Vasilevsky to fall back on like Tampa.
And it's pretty rich to dismiss another player for not being available in a playoffs in a discussion about Kadri of all people.

Now you just seem to be making stuff up. Stephenson averages aren't better than Kadris, Stamkos has been LW and Gourde who was their 3C put up better numbers than Cirelli in 1 year but it still wasn't at Kadris average the years they won the cup so another made up stat I guess. Schenn literally produces the same career numbers as Kadri so again I just don't get it. Malkin was 1 I acknowledged and said we all know he's a 1C anywhere else and Kuznetsov I guess we can say this guy keeps having fluke seasons or something. Has a season with average numbers and then increases by 40 points the next and then dips by 20 the next and then up again by 20 the next. That Stephenson guy also. Could barely break 20 points and then finally broke 30 and then after that he jumped up 30 points and broke 60 all of a sudden. Yet that guy is a legit cup caliber 2C and Kadri isn't in your eyes.

Mackinnon missed 17 games that year and Kadri filled his role. I also added that he got 10 points at either 3v3 or 4v4 because the site said even strength points and 10 of his points weren't 5on5 or on the PP or PK so it had to of come at 3v3 or 4v4.


Trying too hard to discredit Kadri because of 2 playoff suspensions and 1 being a stupid one that wasn't deserved. It's quite sad at this point. Try and say he's bad defensively so I'll even post one of those player cards you probably love to look at.



Wouldn't really say that's a defensive liability, especially for a 2C that's not really used as a shutdown C.