Trades and Free Agency - 2022 Off-season

[Americanadian]

Both to be sacrificed this year (compher next off season)

Both similar dollars

Kerfoot just needs the playoff performance now dammit

Colorado also got 7 seasons out of Compher whereas Toronto got 4, possibly 3 out of Kerfoot.

 

[andora]

Colorado also got 7 seasons out of Compher whereas Toronto got 4, possibly 3 out of Kerfoot.

Meh.. long enough

 

[conFABulator]

I thought we moved past this subject in this thread.

I purposely didn't name every single good player Sakic has acquired because that wasn't my point. My point was that he outright won trades (and 1 850k signing) that lead to acquiring 4 top of the lineup contributors in their prime. He did this without giving up any 1st round picks.

I gave Dubas his credit for Bunting and Kampf.

I also outlined Sakic's blunders over his 8 full seasons which are O'Reilly, Beauchemin, Calvert, Jost.

Dubas already has Ritchie, Mrazek, Kadri, Marchment, Foligno and that's leaving out moves like Johnsson, exposing McCann, Rittich.

Those are 4 big blunders from Sakic and 5 for Dubas and as you mentioned - Dubas has been on the job for half the time.

Also, claiming Toews is not a top 10 defenseman in the league is purely subjective.

We might have moved past it.

My original post that you responded to was comparing year 1-4 for both Dubas and Sakic as GMs and suggesting more patience might not be the worst thing before deciding what to do with KD.

Sorry, if I took us backwards but I thought that was what you were replying to.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Do we honestly have to piss away four more years with Dubas, just because Sakic won the Cup in his 8th season?

 

[Americanadian]

We might have moved past it.

My original post that you responded to was comparing year 1-4 for both Dubas and Sakic as GMs and suggesting more patience might not be the worst thing before deciding what to do with KD.

Sorry, if I took us backwards but I thought that was what you were replying to.

I don’t think their first 4 years were comparable personally. Colorado was not built to win when Sakic took over. MacKinnon/Rantanen and to a lesser degree Landeskog what they are now until Sakic’s 5th season. If Dubas took over in 2015 or 2016 I think you could compare their first 4 seasons.

 

[conFABulator]

I don’t think their first 4 years were comparable personally. Colorado was not built to win when Sakic took over. MacKinnon/Rantanen and to a lesser degree Landeskog what they are now until Sakic’s 5th season. If Dubas took over in 2015 or 2016 I think you could compare their first 4 seasons.

Fair, I guess.

I am not comparing them so much as using Sakic, and others (Yzerman) as cautionary tales for not having an itchy trigger finger when assessing a GM trying to go from re-build to cup.

Yzerman was hired in 2010, they already had Stamkos on board from '08 draft. Tampa won their first cup in 2020. That was Stevie Wonder's 10th year in the role.

St. Louis won a cup 11 years after bottoming out and drafting Pietrangelo (Doug Armstrong's 9th year as GM), we all know it took Washington 14 years after drafting Ovie and that was McLellan's 5th full year with a pretty established core in place, to say the least.

That's the last five SC Champs having GMs with tenure and the opportunity to build and follow a plan. All those teams that made radical moves in the GM suite? None of them are on the list of recent cup winners.

 

[Legion34]

There's got to be a statute of limitations on Lou vs Kyle, especially when Lamoriello has been gone longer than he was actually here.

They literally made a trade like 3 days after the Tavares signing.

 

[Metroid]

Do we honestly have to piss away four more years with Dubas, just because Sakic won the Cup in his 8th season?

Yes

 

[meefer]

Jesus H Christmas, there's at least 5 threads on the 1st page that are Dubas dominated. Couldn't most of these comments over the last 5 pages be pursued there? This is the trade thread.

@SHANNYPLAN where are you?

Matthews to any team for a 3rd, clears up our cap concerns.

 

[conFABulator]

Jesus H Christmas, there's at least 5 threads on the 1st page that are Dubas dominated. Couldn't most of these comments over the last 5 pages be pursued there? This is the trade thread.

@SHANNYPLAN where are you?

Matthews to any team for a 3rd, clears up our cap concerns.

Good call, get us back on topic.

Does Kylington's number do anything for Sandin as a comp?

How about the mediocre Oilers RFAs signing for Kerfoot's number do anything for his market value?

 

[Torontonian]

You guys just love arguing about useless stuff eh, the dog days of summer are really upon us.

Dubas must be okay if Sakic wanted to pry him from being the assistant GM of the Leafs to becoming the GM of the Avalanche.

At the end of the day there is no perfect GM, Dubas good has outweighed his bad and makes him a positive GM. Been a while since we have had a team that's come in 4th place in the NHL, enjoy the ride, it takes a bit of luck to win it all as well.

 

[ACC1224]

You guys just love arguing about useless stuff eh, the dog days of summer are really upon us.

Dubas must be okay if Sakic wanted to pry him from being the assistant GM of the Leafs to becoming the GM of the Avalanche.

At the end of the day there is no perfect GM, Dubas good has outweighed his bad and makes him a positive GM. Been a while since we have had a team that's come in 4th place in the NHL, enjoy the ride, it takes a bit of luck to win it all as well

Luck certainly plays a part n sport, no question.
Was it the Avs luck not being able to bring in Dubas?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Dubas already has Ritchie, Mrazek, Kadri, Marchment, Foligno and that's leaving out moves like Johnsson, exposing McCann, Rittich.

You are really stretching the definition of a "blunder" on the vast majority of those.

Foligno was a blunder (one that Sakic was just as prepared to make if Foligno decided to go with Colorado instead of us mind you). If you really want to be picky, you can count Mrazek even though what he went through was out of nowhere given his history.

Another major blunder that you failed to recognize with Colorado: They can't draft for crap. Sure, they were able to get MacKinnon, Rantanen, Makar, and Byram... With 3 top 4 overall picks and a tenth overall pick in a stacked draft. Helleson and Barron were able to be used in trades, so not bad, and Newhook is also looking fine as a mid-first round guy. But given the amount of picks they had, especially early on when they were rebuilding, Sakic hasn't been able to develop anything internally and has whiffed on a ton of picks (Jost and Bleackley being the headliners, with Kaut possibly joining them unless he takes a massive step in the next few years).

They drafted Butcher, but he didn't even sign with them and he only really had one good year. The only guys they have really developed internally were either guys they traded for (like Compher and Girard) or guys they signed in UFA (Kerfoot and O'Connor)... And even those are far and few between.

Sakic's trading has just been good enough, and he has inherited enough high end assets, where his poor drafting record did not matter.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I don’t think their first 4 years were comparable personally. Colorado was not built to win when Sakic took over. MacKinnon/Rantanen and to a lesser degree Landeskog what they are now until Sakic’s 5th season. If Dubas took over in 2015 or 2016 I think you could compare their first 4 seasons.

If you think the Leafs were built to win when Kyle took over, I suggest you go back and look.

 

[Americanadian]

If you think the Leafs were built to win when Kyle took over, I suggest you go back and look.

Bad defense, loaded forward group, good goalie.

You are really stretching the definition of a "blunder" on the vast majority of those.

Foligno was a blunder (one that Sakic was just as prepared to make if Foligno decided to go with Colorado instead of us mind you). If you really want to be picky, you can count Mrazek even though what he went through was out of nowhere given his history.

Another major blunder that you failed to recognize with Colorado: They can't draft for crap. Sure, they were able to get MacKinnon, Rantanen, Makar, and Byram... With 3 top 4 overall picks and a tenth overall pick in a stacked draft. Helleson and Barron were able to be used in trades, so not bad, and Newhook is also looking fine as a mid-first round guy. But given the amount of picks they had, especially early on when they were rebuilding, Sakic hasn't been able to develop anything internally and has whiffed on a ton of picks (Jost and Bleackley being the headliners, with Kaut possibly joining them unless he takes a massive step in the next few years).

They drafted Butcher, but he didn't even sign with them and he only really had one good year. The only guys they have really developed internally were either guys they traded for (like Compher and Girard) or guys they signed in UFA (Kerfoot and O'Connor)... And even those are far and few between.

Sakic's trading has just been good enough, and he has inherited enough high end assets, where his poor drafting record did not matter.

Please show me the Colorado Foligno link.

I did list Jost as a blunder. Bleackley/Kaut were too late in the 1st to be considered a blunder in my opinion.

His trading has been good compared to Dubas which was the first thing I posted that started all of this.

 

[Torontonian]

Luck certainly plays a part n sport, no question.
Was it the Avs luck not being able to bring in Dubas?

More so the West is complete trash apart from 2 teams while the East is a blood bath. It doesn't really change much seeing how Sakic would have last say in hockey ops.

 

[Americanadian]

Fair, I guess.

I am not comparing them so much as using Sakic, and others (Yzerman) as cautionary tales for not having an itchy trigger finger when assessing a GM trying to go from re-build to cup.

Yzerman was hired in 2010, they already had Stamkos on board from '08 draft. Tampa won their first cup in 2020. That was Stevie Wonder's 10th year in the role.

St. Louis won a cup 11 years after bottoming out and drafting Pietrangelo (Doug Armstrong's 9th year as GM), we all know it took Washington 14 years after drafting Ovie and that was McLellan's 5th full year with a pretty established core in place, to say the least.

That's the last five SC Champs having GMs with tenure and the opportunity to build and follow a plan. All those teams that made radical moves in the GM suite? None of them are on the list of recent cup winners.

I think MacLellan's scenario is the closest to Dubas. He took over a perennial playoff failure and led them to the cup in 4 seasons. Dubas just finished his 4th unfortunately.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Please show me the Colorado Foligno link.

I did list Jost as a blunder. Bleackley/Kaut were too late in the 1st to be considered a blunder in my opinion.

His trading has been good compared to Dubas which was the first thing I posted that started all of this.

And not everything you listed were trades. Some were signings, and some were draft picks.

 

[Americanadian]

Fair play although inconclusive. He dodged a bullet if so. It's hard to judge GM's on trades they didn't make a la Dubas and Weegar for Johnsson/Dermott.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Hopefully not too off topic, but I've noticed that a lot of the trade threads on the main board have this very low opinion of Sandin....even going as far as to say he sucks.

Where is this coming from?

If we're honest with ourselves, we certainly tend to overrate particularly our young players, but does anyone else think Sandin has sucked?

I've thought he's been fairly promising during his short, barely over 82 game tenure so far.

Certainly skating is a concern, but this phenomenon is a bit bizarre to me. Am I crazy?

And yes, I know, there's a lot of anti-Leaf sentiment, but the discrepancy is too wide to be what I consider normal.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Hopefully not too off topic, but I've noticed that a lot of the trade threads on the main board have this very low opinion of Sandin....even going as far as to say he sucks.

Where is this coming from?

If we're honest with ourselves, we certainly tend to overrate particularly our young players, but does anyone else think Sandin has sucked?

I've thought he's been fairly promising during his short, barely over 82 game tenure so far.

Certainly skating is a concern, but this phenomenon is a bit bizarre to me. Am I crazy?

And yes, I know, there's a lot of anti-Leaf sentiment, but the discrepancy is too wide to be what I consider normal.

Eye tests are generally bad around here.

 

[Americanadian]

Eye tests are generally bad around here.

I think part of the issue is no one on the main boards actually watches him.

 

[andora]

Fair play although inconclusive. He dodged a bullet if so. It's hard to judge GM's on trades they didn't make a la Dubas and Weegar for Johnsson/Dermott.

Dont remember the weegar one

Sigh

 

[ULF_55]

Hopefully not too off topic, but I've noticed that a lot of the trade threads on the main board have this very low opinion of Sandin....even going as far as to say he sucks.

Where is this coming from?

If we're honest with ourselves, we certainly tend to overrate particularly our young players, but does anyone else think Sandin has sucked?

I've thought he's been fairly promising during his short, barely over 82 game tenure so far.

Certainly skating is a concern, but this phenomenon is a bit bizarre to me. Am I crazy?

And yes, I know, there's a lot of anti-Leaf sentiment, but the discrepancy is too wide to be what I consider normal.

He was out of the lineup due to an injury.

IIRC his toi/g was slightly higher than Liljegren.

Lots of agendas with narrow focus.

 

[Americanadian]

Dont remember the weegar one

Sigh

It was reported by Friedman on 31 thoughts (not sure if print or podcast) in the 2020 off season that Dubas was close to acquiring Weegar but Florida wanted Johnsson and Dermott.