Trades and Free Agency - 2022 Off-season

[ULF_55]

Ken Holland Edmonton Oilers off-season | TSN

Edmonton Oilers general manager Ken Holland says he is "satisfied" with how the organization has handled the off-season after an impressive run to the Western Conference Final.

www.tsn.ca

However, the current cap crunch doesn't mean Holland is done with his free agent pickups this summer.

“There are some players out there that I’m still kind of looking at for the bottom part of the roster," said the 66-year-old. "Maybe would like to add someone on a one-year deal that is sort of undervalued because they didn’t get swept up over the first couple weeks of free agency. We’ll see, but I am comfortable if we do nothing.”

Off-season ongoing.



Of course this is just a NHL GM not a HFs poster.

Next!

 

[conFABulator]

Yes it seems he figured it out but he also won as a player which gives you an advantage.
Sakic(or any gm for that matter) figuring it out doesn’t guarantee Dubas will.

No credit to Shanahan in the organization? Dubas won with the Marlies also.

 

[WTFMAN99]

No credit to Shanahan in the organization? Dubas won with the Marlies also.

What credit does Shanahan deserve? Outside of overachieving once they drafted Matthews that 1st season, they probably met expectations losing to Boston the first time around and post-season has all been relatively disappointing since. Zero post-season wins as well.

We seem to be losing more off our roster every year rather than adding too.

 

[conFABulator]

Lots of comparisons being made between us and Avs these days but quite frankly i just dont see it.

"Both teams had regular season success but not playoff success"

Except have the Leafs really had comparable regular season success? Avs have won multiple division and conference titles, a Presidents trophy (maybe 2, I can't remember). Leafs biggest accomplishment is finishing a distant second in the division and 3rd in the conference. We did win the North I guess but what is that really worth when the competition was a bunch of bottom half of the league teams?

"Lack of playoff success prior to this year"

Avs, and Mackinnon in particular had completely destroyed their first round opponents.

"But they are in the weak conference so get easy 1st round matchups and have lost when playing good teams in the 2nd round"

Um we lost to the Habs and CBJ, two of the worst teams to make the playoffs in modern history.

Actually, I am comparing the first four years of Sakic to the first four years of Dubas. The post I was responding to was the one where a poster said four years have been long enough for Dubas, I am simply saying that the winning franchises showed patience with their progress. You seem to be using stats and anecdotes for Sakic and core's latter years, not their first four:

Sakic, Year 1 (2014/15) - 90 pts, missed playoffs
Sakic, Year 2 (2015/16) - 82 pts, missed playoffs
Sakic, Year 3 (2016/17) - 48 pts, missed playoffs - last in NHL
Sakic, Year 4 (2017/18) - 95 pts, lost in the first round to Nashville in 6 games, scored 15 goals

This is the first four years in his role as GM, he joined the organization three years before this and had some pretty important hockey roles, but let's just go with the four years.

That's two playoff game wins in four years and no series wins, obviously, They also came dead last once. This is with Landeskog drafted in 2011, Mackinnon in 2013 and Rantanen in 2015. MacKinnon got 6 pts in 6 games that one playoff year and Landeskog got 7, and Rantanen got 4 games.

Should they have fired Sakic? Had he had long enough or do these things take time?

Look at Tampa and St. Louis too. No one has had a short, quick run from re-build to cup since Pittsburgh or Chicago over ten years ago and the playing field has changed since then.

What credit does Shanahan deserve? Outside of overachieving once they drafted Matthews that 1st season, they probably met expectations losing to Boston the first time around and post-season has all been relatively disappointing since. Zero post-season wins as well.

We seem to be losing more off our roster every year than adding too.

This was in reply to someone saying Sakic knows how to win a cup because he won one as a player. Shanny has too. That's all.

Our organization was a joke on and off the ice before Shanny by the way. For years, maybe decades. He has done an incredible amount for this organization.

 

[ACC1224]

No credit to Shanahan in the organization? Dubas won with the Marlies also.

Shanahan IMO, has been the biggest disappointment of all.
I recall the excitement when he came on board but it's like he completely forgot what made himself and the teams he played on successful.

 

[conFABulator]

Sakic went out and acquired Toews, Kadri, Burakovsky, Nichuskin for Barrie, Kerfoot, 3 2nds and 2 3rds. That's an entire 2nd line for 3 seasons - Nuke will be there longer. Toews is a top 10 (?) defenseman in the league and he will be on the team for a minimum of 4 seasons. The reason Sakic is seen as a top executive is because he consistently wins trades and gets long term value.

This doesn't even include getting Lehkonen for 6 years and Manson for 5 years without giving up a 1st or trading 2 years of Zadorov for 1 year of Saad. This also doesn't include the Duchene trade where he grabbed Girard, Byram.

Dubas' whole premise when he became GM was that he was going to find underrated and undervalued talent. He has brought in Bunting, Spezza, Kampf, Mikheyev who have over performed their contracts but only Bunting/Kampf have been big minute contributors and one of them will be gone after this season if the Leafs don't move salary.

You seem to be comparing 8 years of Sakic accomplishments against four years of Dubas.

...all Dubas has done is acquired Muzzin, Brodie, Giordano, Tavares, Campbell, Bunting, Kampf...and Sandin, Robertson, Knies and Niemela through the draft. No bad contracts on the books, all while dealing with a flat camp after locking up a core for big dollars.

I am not bashing Sakic, I like him and he is good. Did he look this good after four years or did they show patience?

Also, Toews is not a top-10 defenseman in the NHL.

 

[andora]

You seem to be comparing 8 years of Sakic accomplishments against four years of Dubas.

...all Dubas has done is acquired Muzzin, Brodie, Giordano, Tavares, Campbell, Bunting, Kampf...and Sandin, Robertson, Knies and Niemela through the draft. No bad contracts on the books, all while dealing with a flat camp after locking up a core for big dollars.

I am not bashing Sakic, I like him and he is good. Did he look this good after four years or did they show patience?

Also, Toews is not a top-10 defenseman in the NHL.

I don't think patience is the right word as they decided to rebuild their core group of players and moved out some very very good hockey players. they identified who they wanted long term and re formed their team and outlook.

i think the sakic comparison is tough because sakic can be broken into two time frames due to the major core re-work they did when they identified it wasn't working. plust they had two waves of cores to work with essentially - allowing them to do what they did.

so comparing Dubas, not quite accurate as he has really only had the one main core, and this would be the time in the comparison that he makes an identify altering trade/move to reset and refocus.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I don't think patience is the right word as they decided to rebuild their core group of players and moved out some very very good hockey players. they identified who they wanted long term and re formed their team and outlook.

i think the sakic comparison is tough because sakic can be broken into two time frames due to the major core re-work they did when they identified it wasn't working. plust they had two waves of cores to work with essentially - allowing them to do what they did.

so comparing Dubas, not quite accurate as he has really only had the one main core, and this would be the time in the comparison that he makes an identify altering trade/move to reset and refocus.

We can also say that the cap / economics changed on Dubas but we cannot ignore that he hasn't seemed to change the strategy by moving out a larger cap hit guy like JT or even Nylander despite lack of sucess.

You can't complain about lack of success or strained resources ($$) and then proceed to literally not change tactics.

 

[BertCorbeau]

This biggest difference is that Sakic decided to shake up his core after multiple years of failure while Dubas has yet to do so.

Now Sakic’s failure at the time was worse than Dubas in that the Leafs have actually made the playoffs, but the repeated same failure for Dubas doesn’t set him far apart enough imo to justify holding onto the core.

 

[conFABulator]

I don't think patience is the right word as they decided to rebuild their core group of players and moved out some very very good hockey players. they identified who they wanted long term and re formed their team and outlook.

i think the sakic comparison is tough because sakic can be broken into two time frames due to the major core re-work they did when they identified it wasn't working. plust they had two waves of cores to work with essentially - allowing them to do what they did.

so comparing Dubas, not quite accurate as he has really only had the one main core, and this would be the time in the comparison that he makes an identify altering trade/move to reset and refocus.

What core re-work? I can't look it up right now, but you seem to know of it.

This core started being assembled when they drafted Landeskog in 2011, no? Then MacKinnon in '13 and Rantanen in '15.

What other core preceded this group and overlapped with Sakic as GM?

 

[WTFMAN99]

This biggest difference is that Sakic decided to shake up his core after multiple years of failure while Dubas has yet to do so.

Now Sakic’s failure at the time was worse than Dubas in that the Leafs have actually made the playoffs, but the repeated same failure for Dubas doesn’t set him far apart enough imo to justify holding onto the core.

Making the playoffs is better than not making the playoffs but making zero changes when you've had no success with the core is an even worse blunder because it just feels like a slow march towards mediocrity or guys just continuing to move on.

 

[andora]

What core re-work? I can't look it up right now, but you seem to know of it.

This core started being assembled when they drafted Landeskog in 2011, no? Then MacKinnon in '13 and Rantanen in '15.

What other core preceded this group and overlapped with Sakic as GM?

Ryan oreilly and matt duchene are the primary ones. He also made the barrie move to supplement the new group with kadri

Barrie was a bi polar player with fans split between keeping and trading

For the dubas side one can argue he didnt get a sexond wave of core pieces (like mack and rantanen) to back up trading current pieces but dubas did inherit a large depth cast of solid all around forwards

 

[conFABulator]

Ryan oreilly and matt duchene are the primary ones. He also made the barrie move to supplement the new group with kadri

Barrie was a bi polar player with fans split between keeping and trading

For the dubas side one can argue he didnt get a sexond wave of core pieces (like mack and rantanen) to back up trading current pieces but dubas did inherit a large depth cast of solid all around forwards

Right, thanks.

Either way, Sakic still had a much longer rope that many on here want to give him.

Sakic also got assets for those moves that helped him as well.

Again, I like Sakic a lot ant bashing him, but he was given time. So what Stevie Y.

 

[andora]

Right, thanks.

Either way, Sakic still had a much longer rope that many on here want to give him.

Sakic also got assets for those moves that helped him as well.

Again, I like Sakic a lot ant bashing him, but he was given time. So what Stevie Y.

100% and one could argue sakic had the 'timing' of his assets to make the moves as he made them.

Dubas got everything at once and has not created the supplemental next wave so to speak.

My personal criticism of him are intertwined - and it is a main argumebt around here obviously

1. Tavares contract, not only for the money but for the timing. Questions in goal and a defence that needed fixing were more pressing in my opinion than another top forward - coupled with the group of forwards we had coming

2. The tavares contract pushed us into the win now category a year, perhaps two early. It went from an outlook of lets see who does what and who grows into what and changed into an outlook of assets out the door to capitalize on this right now. Players and draft capital

 

[ACC1224]

Right, thanks.

Either way, Sakic still had a much longer rope that many on here want to give him.

Sakic also got assets for those moves that helped him as well.

Again, I like Sakic a lot ant bashing him, but he was given time. So what Stevie Y.

I think most would agree that being a former star player would give you more rope than a guy no one had ever heard of that talked his way into a job.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This biggest difference is that Sakic decided to shake up his core after multiple years of failure while Dubas has yet to do so.

The "core players" that Sakic traded are more similar to Kadri than our current core players, and even then, Sakic only traded them when they were approaching UFA, they didn't want to be there, and the team was bad.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Any trade/FA talk or just GM Talk?

It's the off-season and the leafs just lost in the 1st round again so every thread is now a Lou vs Dubas debate lol

 

[Americanadian]

You seem to be comparing 8 years of Sakic accomplishments against four years of Dubas.

...all Dubas has done is acquired Muzzin, Brodie, Giordano, Tavares, Campbell, Bunting, Kampf...and Sandin, Robertson, Knies and Niemela through the draft. No bad contracts on the books, all while dealing with a flat camp after locking up a core for big dollars.

I am not bashing Sakic, I like him and he is good. Did he look this good after four years or did they show patience?

Also, Toews is not a top-10 defenseman in the NHL.

I thought we moved past this subject in this thread.

I purposely didn't name every single good player Sakic has acquired because that wasn't my point. My point was that he outright won trades (and 1 850k signing) that lead to acquiring 4 top of the lineup contributors in their prime. He did this without giving up any 1st round picks.

I gave Dubas his credit for Bunting and Kampf.

I also outlined Sakic's blunders over his 8 full seasons which are O'Reilly, Beauchemin, Calvert, Jost.

Dubas already has Ritchie, Mrazek, Kadri, Marchment, Foligno and that's leaving out moves like Johnsson, exposing McCann, Rittich.

Those are 4 big blunders from Sakic and 5 for Dubas and as you mentioned - Dubas has been on the job for half the time.

Also, claiming Toews is not a top 10 defenseman in the league is purely subjective.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Grass is always greener with the latest winner of the Cup. In every case for the last few years, those teams took years to assemble, and most often the main cast had longer before a cup than our core. But yup, the grass is greener and a lack of patience demanding we win now.

That being said, if they don’t find success this year of some sort in the playoffs, change of some sort will be necessary.

I am in the same boat regarding the second part though I get why people could have felt the same way the previous year after the Montreal debacle.

 

[andora]

I thought we moved past this subject in this thread.

I purposely didn't name every single good player Sakic has acquired because that wasn't my point. My point was that he outright won trades (and 1 850k signing) that lead to acquiring 4 top of the lineup contributors in their prime. He did this without giving up any 1st round picks.

I gave Dubas his credit for Bunting and Kampf.

I also outlined Sakic's blunders over his 8 full seasons which are O'Reilly, Beauchemin, Calvert, Jost.

Dubas already has Ritchie, Mrazek, Kadri, Marchment, Foligno and that's leaving out moves like Johnsson, exposing McCann, Rittich.

Those are 4 big blunders from Sakic and 5 for Dubas and as you mentioned - Dubas has been on the job for half the time.

Also, claiming Toews is not a top 10 defenseman in the league is purely subjective.

And funny enough.. outside of his unique cult like hate/love JTC just had a fantastic playoffs and contributed some very key goals

 

[ErnieLeafs]

The Leafs’ strategy was sound, if not a gamble by nature. Nobody saw Covid and a flat cap coming. If not for the flat cap and all that garbage, I absolutely trust they had a solid plan to supplement the core with impactful pieces to get the job done, or at least get a lot closer than we have.

Can this group weather the storm long enough to see a significant rise in the cap, allowing them to add more, not just around the edges? That remains to be seen.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I would also argue that the talent of the core 4 should be good enough to carry the team for a couple of rounds … but they just haven’t been able to elevate their game enough.

Had their moments but clearly haven’t gone to the next level for at least a round.

Edmonton went on a run on the backs of McDavid and Drai, as well as Kane and Hyman. Surely the Leafs theoretically could do the same

 

[andora]

I would also argue that the talent of the core 4 should be good enough to carry the team for a couple of rounds … but they just haven’t been able to elevate their game enough.

Had their moments but clearly haven’t gone to the next level for at least a round.

Edmonton went on a run on the backs of McDavid and Drai, as well as Kane and Hyman. Surely the Leafs theoretically could do the same

Some believe they have already done enough.

Did they do enough for you this year? Did the 3rd line or 4th line do enough for you this year?

 

[Americanadian]

And funny enough.. outside of his unique cult like hate/love JTC just had a fantastic playoffs and contributed some very key goals

Of the O’Reilly trade is Dubas’ Kadri trade then JTC is the Leafs Kerfoot.

 

[andora]

Of the O’Reilly trade is Dubas’ Kadri trade then JTC is the Leafs Kerfoot.

Both to be sacrificed this year (compher next off season)

Both similar dollars

Kerfoot just needs the playoff performance now dammit