Trades and Free Agency - 2022-23 Season Edition

[Havoc]

we are holding onto too many 50/50 prospects. We should use some while their prospect value is still high to obtain depth that can bring home a cup. We're very close.

Interesting to note the first mention of this idea was actually Zeke last year. So this isn't even an anti-Dubas thing. A keen eye can see what is missing from this team and it's definitely not another dumpster diver.

 

[Shooter2x]

Interesting to note the first mention of this idea was actually Zeke last year. So this isn't even an anti-Dubas thing. A keen eye can see what is missing from this team and it's definitely not another dumpster diver.

For the record I'm not even saying we have to stop dumpster diving. It's a cap world you can't survive without dumpster diving today, and it's actually a fun game in the off-season to come here and figure out who a potential breakout one might be out of the 25-27 year old options.

But that bottom 6 is butt ugly without having a general down there and it's getting worse every season, and now we want to bet on unproven rookies who are 50/50 at best to take up depth spots? And even if they do make it, what are their impacts going to be?

We ran out of time for patience and unknowns. Our cup window is now. These young guys are 5 years away from turning 30 we burned up all the years we had of taking their age for granted. Are we finally going for it when Marner is 29 and Minten is finally ready to enter the bottom 6 as an impact depth player or Knies is ready to take the league by storm in the top 6 (As in, it's not enough to just make the team, they need to also excel in their role)? Every year counts even more now. The sad reality is we have no impact guys ready for 2022 and we don't know if any will be ready for 2023. We need to make a move.

That's not a stanley cup winning bottom 6 as it stands right now. That bottom 6 as is is such disrespect to the core. Our current 3C can't even muster 40% on the draws in the playoffs if playing C full time. If anyone is against having a piece to carry the bottom 6 down there you are simply against quality hockey. There needs to be a shift in paradigm when it comes to our bottom 6. The lack of quality they think they can get away with has to stop literally today.

 

[smitty10]

He was only with Matthews and Marner for a year and a half.
Matthews and Marner didn’t even get put together until Keefe took over a third of the way into the first Covid season.
Health permitting he would have passed 60 points both the years he played with them as a trio. Your criticizing him essentially because Covid happened.

You're missing the point.

I'm not criticizing Hyman at all. I'm pointing out that Bunting isn't some bum like a couple posters are implying. Hyman is just the easiest comparable. I very much liked Zach Hyman as a Leaf.

 

[Havoc]

And even if they do make it, what are their impacts going to be?

Not a question to scoff at. I hold Sandin in high regard, he was one of our best prospects to graduate, but he's not even a top 4 D yet and still showing a lot of flaws. You're not that serious about a cup with this core if you're going to bank on the next prospects up to fill holes and call it a day.

Not asking for much if all we want is one more impact player to help hold things down. Not asking for a total rebuild of half the team. We should only be going with the current ensemble if injuries forced it.

Long season ahead of us, let's see what happens.

 

[Martin Skoula]

My issue with Bunting is that once he's past his best before date, he's just not a bottom 6 type of player like others can be. He would have to completely reinvent himself as he's not really physical, nor is he very good defensively compared to most bottom 6ers..

If you sign him for 8 years and after 4 he's no longer top-6 material, then what? That's a lot of cap tied up in a player you can't even really play anymore.

I'd compare it to signing a healthier Lupul to an 8 year deal. Yeah he can put up 30/70 in a peak season, but what do you do with him when he loses a step or one of our LW prospects breaks out?

 

[LeafChief]

Signing Bunting for 8 years sounds like a bad idea to me.

 

[htpwn]

Interesting discussion. The one thing that I'll note about Hyman is that when he was healthy and on his game, he could drive a line. Bunting has yet to show that he can do that, even if he seems to have a better nose for the net.

As for the larger depth discussion, I think it is "fine" overall and Dubas has done well to fill out the team with some really solid all-around players, but "fine" may not be good enough in certain positions. The second line, in particular, has not been working well for over a year now and part of that surely has to do with the lack of a genuine top 6 winger on the left side. Likewise, whatever his positive qualities, Kerfoot is not exactly anyone's ideal 3C.

Our cap constraints makes it difficult to upgrade either position though. Especially because no help has come from within. Remember the days of Johnsson, Kapanen, Moore, etc.? Pierre Engvall is the only forward prospect to make the jump in the past three years.

 

[hockeywiz542]

32 Thoughts: Setting the tone for a brand new NHL season

As the NHL returns, so does 32 Thoughts. This week, Elliotte Friedman welcomes you back with predictions and notes on Jakob Chychrun, Bo Horvat and more.

www.sportsnet.ca

9. Believe Toronto will continue exploring waiver-exempt or waiver-cleared defensive depth thanks to three preseason injuries. The Maple Leafs have a surplus of depth forwards.

 

[TML Dynasty]

Figured I’d pop in to read some leaf posts…….read ‘we still haven’t replaced Trevor Moore’……guess that’s enough.

……and yes I get the point being made, but seriously Trevor Moore lol?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Interesting discussion. The one thing that I'll note about Hyman is that when he was healthy and on his game, he could drive a line. Bunting has yet to show that he can do that, even if he seems to have a better nose for the net.

As for the larger depth discussion, I think it is "fine" overall and Dubas has done well to fill out the team with some really solid all-around players, but "fine" may not be good enough in certain positions. The second line, in particular, has not been working well for over a year now and part of that surely has to do with the lack of a genuine top 6 winger on the left side. Likewise, whatever his positive qualities, Kerfoot is not exactly anyone's ideal 3C.

Our cap constraints makes it difficult to upgrade either position though. Especially because no help has come from within. Remember the days of Johnsson, Kapanen, Moore, etc.? Pierre Engvall is the only forward prospect to make the jump in the past three years.

We haven't had any prospects to really graduate, and it is not like we have been trading away a bunch either. The only one who would have made the jump from the Hunter drafts would have been Grundstrom, and he is only a very replaceable checking 4th line forward in the mold of ZAR right now.

We just really sucked at drafting in that period, and we are only now starting to get to the point where we will have more guys to graduate. We are just fortunate that Dubas has been able to find strong bargain bin guys to fill spots effectively (Mikheyev, Bunting, Kampf, and now hopefully ZAR, NAK, and Malgin) while the first wave of Dubas forward prospects are finishing up their development in the AHL this year.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

We haven't had any prospects to really graduate, and it is not like we have been trading away a bunch either. The only one who would have made the jump from the Hunter drafts would have been Grundstrom, and he is only a very replaceable checking 4th line forward in the mold of ZAR right now.

We just really sucked at drafting in that period, and we are only now starting to get to the point where we will have more guys to graduate. We are just fortunate that Dubas has been able to find strong bargain bin guys to fill spots effectively (Mikheyev, Bunting, Kampf, and now hopefully ZAR, NAK, and Malgin) while the first wave of Dubas forward prospects are finishing up their development in the AHL this year.

Every team we will face in the playoffs in addition to a few bubble teams on the outside can easily match our depth. And none of Dubas prospects are ready to jump, let's say a Kampf at C or Kerfoot at wing.

Leafs core is probably no.1 in the world for things left out to dry in the playoffs.

I feel like I'm in a dream when I come here. I can't fathom how people can list names like that and consider our depth good. There's not a single name I trust to drive the 3rd or 4th line in a manner it will stand out over the other teams in the playoffs. Our only chance of that was when we had Kadri bozak jvr brown and even Marleau in his first year here. Even turtle neck plek showed up for more games than some of these guys. Key word games. Even when our depth plays well in the playoffs it's only for a stretch of the game and they do nothing for the rest.

Tampas core was better than ours at one point and you can argue still better because they have a no.1 G and premium no.1 D, and even they can't win a cup without some high quality 5th and 6th man's helping out.

I'm going to take my huge fat L on not wanting to give Hyman 8 x 5. He was the last of actual good depth and even if overpaid at the tail end, its like what hoglund said last week "you can only work with what you have" at least we possessed a highly coveted depth guy half the league wanted. How many people want Kerfoot unless he can be had for cheap? Zero.

Our dumpster diving approach has proven we will easily fill any remaining spots without fear. Cap isn't an issue. Dumpster dive on a Jarnkrok instead of paying 3 mil for the same thing. That's all cool under the condition those 5th and 6th man's are the ones driving the forces and you don't use a dumpster diver or kerfoot/Engvall as the core piece.

I like to see it as two different teams. Top 6 has a foundation, bottom 6 does not. Bottom 6 is treated like our goal is to draft high.

*Going to just come out and say it. If Bunting got paid 3 mil or higher and you tried to sell him as a bottom 6 driver, you will have zero suitors. He's not a Hyman or even a Kerfoot as far as bottom 6 goes.

 

[kb]

Every team we will face in the playoffs in addition to a few bubble teams on the outside can easily match our depth. And none of Dubas prospects are ready to jump, let's say a Kampf at C or Kerfoot at wing.

Leafs core is probably no.1 in the world for things left out to dry in the playoffs.

I feel like I'm in a dream when I come here. I can't fathom how people can list names like that and consider our depth good. There's not a single name I trust to drive the 3rd or 4th line in a manner it will stand out over the other teams in the playoffs. Our only chance of that was when we had Kadri bozak jvr brown and even Marleau in his first year here. Even turtle neck plek showed up for more games than some of these guys. Key word games. Even when our depth plays well in the playoffs it's only for a stretch of the game and they do nothing for the rest.

Tampas core was better than ours at one point and you can argue still better because they have a no.1 G and premium no.1 D, and even they can't win a cup without some high quality 5th and 6th man's helping out.

I'm going to take my huge fat L on not wanting to give Hyman 8 x 5. He was the last of actual good depth and even if overpaid at the tail end, its like what hoglund said last week "you can only work with what you have" at least we possessed a highly coveted depth guy half the league wanted. How many people want Kerfoot unless he can be had for cheap? Zero.

Our dumpster diving approach has proven we will easily fill any remaining spots without fear. Cap isn't an issue. Dumpster dive on a Jarnkrok instead of paying 3 mil for the same thing. That's all cool under the condition those 5th and 6th man's are the ones driving the forces and you don't use a dumpster diver or kerfoot/Engvall as the core piece.

I like to see it as two different teams. Top 6 has a foundation, bottom 6 does not. Bottom 6 is treated like our goal is to draft high.

Wow.....so much.....fail.

This is how to say you haven't once looked at any other roster without saying it. Show your work....Leafs vs other top contenders.

Gonna make claims like this....back it up with cold hard stats.

 

[4thline]

The big, and arguably only, thing we're missing in the bottom 6 is a plus level two way 3C. ZAR and Kampf are both plus level 4thline defensive players, Kerf/Engvall and Jarncrok make for a versatile plus level two way 3rd line wing set. But 3 swiss army knife "kinda C's" doesn't exactly have oomph as a line. Kampf is adequate if we got another 4C type, but we should aspire for more than adequate.

If Washington falls out of the hunt early we should be knocking on Eller. Or the real swing for the fences (almost overkill)would be Horvat.

 

[Shooter2x]

Every team we will face in the playoffs in addition to a few bubble teams on the outside can easily match our depth. And none of Dubas prospects are ready to jump, let's say a Kampf at C or Kerfoot at wing.

Leafs core is probably no.1 in the world for things left out to dry in the playoffs.

I feel like I'm in a dream when I come here. I can't fathom how people can list names like that and consider our depth good. There's not a single name I trust to drive the 3rd or 4th line in a manner it will stand out over the other teams in the playoffs. Our only chance of that was when we had Kadri bozak jvr brown and even Marleau in his first year here. Even turtle neck plek showed up for more games than some of these guys. Key word games. Even when our depth plays well in the playoffs it's only for a stretch of the game and they do nothing for the rest.

Tampas core was better than ours at one point and you can argue still better because they have a no.1 G and premium no.1 D, and even they can't win a cup without some high quality 5th and 6th man's helping out.

I'm going to take my huge fat L on not wanting to give Hyman 8 x 5. He was the last of actual good depth and even if overpaid at the tail end, its like what hoglund said last week "you can only work with what you have" at least we possessed a highly coveted depth guy half the league wanted. How many people want Kerfoot unless he can be had for cheap? Zero.

Our dumpster diving approach has proven we will easily fill any remaining spots without fear. Cap isn't an issue. Dumpster dive on a Jarnkrok instead of paying 3 mil for the same thing. That's all cool under the condition those 5th and 6th man's are the ones driving the forces and you don't use a dumpster diver or kerfoot/Engvall as the core piece.

I like to see it as two different teams. Top 6 has a foundation, bottom 6 does not. Bottom 6 is treated like our goal is to draft high.

*Going to just come out and say it. If Bunting got paid 3 mil or higher and you tried to sell him as a bottom 6 driver, you will have zero suitors. He's not a Hyman or even a Kerfoot as far as bottom 6 goes.

Don't waste your breath. This thread in particular is long gone. There's no way to convince.

Can you imagine 25 year old matthews and marner getting to re-attempt the Bruins series with the depth we used to have compared to the current depth (As in, it's 2018 again but 2022 matthews and marner used a time turner, knocked out their younger selves and snuck in the game)? Even with Kadri sitting out until round 2 it's a 4-0 sweep and probably 4-0 sweep through the rest of the playoffs when Kadri comes back.

They'll convince you that the past depth couldn't get it done (which might be true, but that's not the point, it's just about the general trend the bottom 6 is seeing) while ignoring our best players still couldn't grow facial hair back then and were too raw to go up against marchand berg and chara in dominating fashion. Has more to do with that. The current depth is trash and becoming trashier as the years go on with only unknowns and 50/50s up next to save it.


Short version: When the best players are no longer raw and ready to dominate the entire league, they are surrounded by garbage (and if you think the past depth is garbage, then change that to *even more garbage instead of garbage)

 

[DraftSchmaft]

while ignoring our best players still couldn't grow facial hair back then and were too raw to go up against marchand berg and chara in dominating fashion.


Short version: When the best players are no longer raw and ready to dominate the entire league, they are surrounded by garbage (and if you think the past depth is garbage, then change that to *even more garbage instead of garbage)

Yeah considering a break from this place. I feel like I'm losing a grasp on the game, constantly seeing these swappable lawn chair names that are listed for depth and being ridiculed if you think the names aren't good enough to win. Then you also have the odd day when you have to deal with hearing the core can't get it done either and we should trade marner and nylander or shed JT, when that's also far from the case. This place is a walking L. Just going to enjoy my core boys and cross my fingers they can find a goodrow or coleman as the season goes on or make a big splash by moving out bottom 6 (we can literally move all 5, im keeping kampf, and re-fill all 5 in one day in the summer ) and making a splash for maybe a Horvat level at 3C or equivalent winger. You have me on IG you know where to find me I'm out of here for a bit. Peaceeeee

 

[Havoc]

Can you imagine 25 year old matthews and marner getting to re-attempt the Bruins series with the depth we used to have compared to the current depth (As in, it's 2018 again but 2022 matthews and marner used a time turner, knocked out their younger selves and snuck in the game)?

I just saw you sneak in this edit when I came back to the thread. I'm observing but no longer have the energy to jump in this topic. I'm pooped. To each their own by year 7.

Just wanted to say this is an easy 4-0 sweep, Boston will be crying for mercy rule by game 2. Don't forget Nylander though, 2022 Willy is way different too.

Bang on about the general trend around the core.

 

[WTFMAN99]

The big, and arguably only, thing we're missing in the bottom 6 is a plus level two way 3C. ZAR and Kampf are both plus level 4thline defensive players, Kerf/Engvall and Jarncrok make for a versatile plus level two way 3rd line wing set. But 3 swiss army knife "kinda C's" doesn't exactly have oomph as a line. Kampf is adequate if we got another 4C type, but we should aspire for more than adequate.

If Washington falls out of the hunt early we should be knocking on Eller. Or the real swing for the fences (almost overkill)would be Horvat.

Toews (50% retained) is worth keeping an eye on. He's looked mostly good in Chicago so far, definitely not a 1C at all but a 3rd line centre? Yes.

I identified Eller as someone to watch and Monahan if they put him at centre again and his health holds up.

Defense and goaltending will need to hold up though so we can actually upgrade the 3C.

No one else really expiring that is a viable target, I think Horvat eventually gets it done with Vancouver.

 

[Dekes For Days]

People need to take a look around the league if they think our forward depth is bad.

Funny thing is, with our elite players going from ELCs to actual contracts worth tens of millions more, with a flat cap, with our investments into defense, and with the lack of internal help from the Lou-era drafts, our forward depth should have taken a massive hit over the past few years, but we've actually been able to maintain and even improve our depth over the years with effective management.

For the record...
In 2017-2018, we got 329 points out of our forwards beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander.
In 2021-2022, we got 369 points out of our forwards beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander.
Same number of games for that group in both samples.

The 2021-2022 group of forwards beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander was also considerably better defensively than the 2017-2018 group, and yet they cost 7.25m less.

So overall, with our forward depth beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander, we're getting 40 extra points and much better defense for 7.25m less compared to pre-Dubas, and yet people still complain and stress about the natural turnover of complimentary forwards. Mind boggling.

 

[WTFMAN99]

People need to take a look around the league if they think our forward depth is bad.

Funny thing is, with our elite players going from ELCs to actual contracts worth tens of millions more, with a flat cap, with our investments into defense, and with the lack of internal help from the Lou-era drafts, our forward depth should have taken a massive hit over the past few years, but we've actually been able to maintain and even improve our depth over the years with effective management.

For the record...
In 2017-2018, we got 329 points out of our forwards beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander.
In 2021-2022, we got 369 points out of our forwards beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander.
Same number of games for that group in both samples.

The 2021-2022 group of forwards beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander was also considerably better defensively than the 2017-2018 group, and yet they cost 7.25m less.

So overall, with our forward depth beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander, we're getting 40 extra points and much better defense for 7.25m less compared to pre-Dubas, and yet people still complain and stress about the natural turnover of complimentary forwards. Mind boggling.

If your bottom 6 composition is

ZAR-Kampf-NAK
Engvall-Kerfoot-Jarnkrok

It's fair to question the upside there, good players, good defensively but not like an x-factor type weapon there.

Maybe Knies and/or Robertson is able to be that guy for us later this season or we upgrade on Kerfoot.

I see what you're saying, it isn't inherently wrong, it's just we do have less weapons, which I have felt has been a problem in the last couple of years in the playoffs.

 

[justashadowof]

I posted this several times already over the past few weeks: the Leafs need a 5th goalie under contract.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Don't waste your breath. This thread in particular is long gone. There's no way to convince.

Can you imagine 25 year old matthews and marner getting to re-attempt the Bruins series with the depth we used to have compared to the current depth (As in, it's 2018 again but 2022 matthews and marner used a time turner, knocked out their younger selves and snuck in the game)? Even with Kadri sitting out until round 2 it's a 4-0 sweep and probably 4-0 sweep through the rest of the playoffs when Kadri comes back.

They'll convince you that the past depth couldn't get it done (which might be true, but that's not the point, it's just about the general trend the bottom 6 is seeing) while ignoring our best players still couldn't grow facial hair back then and were too raw to go up against marchand berg and chara in dominating fashion. Has more to do with that. The current depth is trash and becoming trashier as the years go on with only unknowns and 50/50s up next to save it.


Short version: When the best players are no longer raw and ready to dominate the entire league, they are surrounded by garbage (and if you think the past depth is garbage, then change that to *even more garbage instead of garbage)

Do you think it might have something to do with Matthews and Marner having 10x the cap hit they did on their ELCs maybe?

The only thing you'd need to send back in time is our defense and PK coach. I don't care which version of any forward you send back when our #1 and 2 TOI leaders were Gardiner and Hainsey and Boston was scoring at will on the PP.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If your bottom 6 composition is

ZAR-Kampf-NAK
Engvall-Kerfoot-Jarnkrok

It's fair to question the upside there, good players, good defensively but not like an x-factor type weapon there.

Maybe Knies and/or Robertson is able to be that guy for us later this season or we upgrade on Kerfoot.

I see what you're saying, it isn't inherently wrong, it's just we do have less weapons, which I have felt has been a problem in the last couple of years in the playoffs.

A couple things...

1. I'm genuinely curious... What do you think an x-factor type weapon in the bottom 6 is? Like how would you define it and what makes our players not it?
2. Technically the discussion was about our forwards beyond Matthews/Marner/Nylander, which would include players like Tavares and Bunting, and last year included the likes of Mikyehev, and by the end of the year as you said may include the likes of Robertson and Knies.

Really, I don't know why we're excluding Matthews/Marner/Nylander in the first place, considering they're a big part of our team and cap allocation. It's like people want not just a good or great bottom 6 but an elite high-scoring dynamic bottom six, while simultaneously having the best top-6 in the league featuring the reigning Hart trophy winner, plus an elite defense, and Vezina-contending can't-miss goaltending. Like people do realize there's a cap, right?

 

[hamzarocks]

I just saw you sneak in this edit when I came back to the thread. I'm observing but no longer have the energy to jump in this topic. I'm pooped. To each their own by year 7.

Just wanted to say this is an easy 4-0 sweep, Boston will be crying for mercy rule by game 2. Don't forget Nylander though, 2022 Willy is way different too.

Bang on about the general trend around the core.

Boston/Toronto in 7 man don't even be crazy with leafs in 4

That's pure fantasy

Leafs won't sweep any team in the 1st round

Boston is a tough team still slight favourites vs Toronto come playoffs as they're in our heads until we can actually beat them

 

[Sypher04]

Boston/Toronto in 7 man don't even be crazy with leafs in 4

That's pure fantasy

Leafs won't sweep any team in the 1st round

Boston is a tough team still slight favourites vs Toronto come playoffs as they're in our heads until we can actually beat them

Nah, Boston as slight favorites is really pushing it. Toronto would be clear favorites vs Boston at this point for each club. No one should expect a sweep, but the Leafs should be expected to win that series

 

[hamzarocks]

Nah, Boston as slight favorites is really pushing it. Toronto would be clear favorites vs Boston at this point for each club. No one should expect a sweep, but the Leafs should be expected to win that series

I can't have us as favorites against the Bruins until we get the jobs done

No one's stopping the Bruins PP on this team, our goaltending isn't elite enough to bail out the Bruins elite PP and that's what cost us in 2019 with a great Andersen. Bruins also generate a lot of PPs too

Leafs big 4 also have struggled vs the Bruins in the past. Bergeron + Krejci won't be easy matchup to dominate.

Will be similar to Toronto/Tampa last year.

Boston Having McAvoy whose a top 5D is going to make one of JT/Matthews life hell

Will come to Bruins second line vs our second line as the top lines probably get neutralized at 5v5