Rumor: Trade Thread XVII: Callahan's Reckoning.

[Callagraves]

Nash is this teams #1 RW. MZA/Callahan are #2. MZA/Callahan are #3. MZA is outscoring him by quite a bit this season. MZA is PKing. MZA is PPing. Is he worth 6.5-7 million?

1. I love Zucc, but this is the very first full season he's ever played at this level. How confident are we he's going to keep up a 60 point pace?

2. Zucc hasn't been doing much PKing as of late, as it looks like AV has decided to stick with Boyle-Hags, Moore-, and then whoever the hell he feels like putting with Stepan

3. Pouliot is also on the Powerplay. It doesn't mean much. AV is just playing those lines + Richards at the point. I'm not a huge fan of it. Also, If I'm not mistaken, Callahan still has more points on the PP than Pouliot despite significantly less time there.

4. Look at their TOI and matchups. I'm a huge Zucc fan, (not so much Brass and Poo), but that line has done a fantastic job scoring against other teams lower pairings/lines.

Zucc may well prove himself to be a 2nd liner. Ryan Callahan has been 2nd liner for the past 5 years.

And I'll never say he's worth 6.8 or whatever he's asking. But referring to such a player as a "3rd line grinder" is just willfull ignorance.

 

[TheTakedown]

You don't hear much about Vigneault's terrible system anymore. How many people here wanted to fire AV to bring in Peter Laviolette and now the Rangers are headed to the finals?

At one point I had preferred it, I'll admit...

But after watching the last few months, I've appreciated several things about his style of play:

-Not a hardass... Though I miss the passion of Torts, I get that certain guys don't work well in that environment. When you have over 50% of your roster under 25 (like Torts did) that works, but when you're dealing with guys that are just average NHL depth players, and not superstars, and are in their late 20's and early 30's, screaming your head off doesn't work so well anymore

-Line Matching... AV does a particularly good job of letting particular lines play against the opposition's particular lines...

-Line Chemistry... AV changes like once every 5 games at the least, sometimes 10. He allows those lines to stick for 2-4 weeks at the least to allow some kind of chemistry to form between those players.
We can watch the NJ Devils and note that they aren't as good as they could be with all that youth.. and we wonder why? Well, that mostly comes from playing with inconfidence. whether it's because of the individual, or the goal of the team. Allowing players to stay on the same line and not benching them every time they make a mistake allows "most" players to develop in a better way

-No Favorites... Each line gets an average amount of ice time, sans a few minutes less per line after the 1st. That's a VERY advantageous strategy, since you can't run 2 or 3 lines in a playoff series and expect to win. Torts used to LOVE putting Richards or Boyle on the ice, even in the most precious moments of a game, and neither of them were up to task

-Individual player strengths... We didn't seem to see this in the beginning of the season, but that's changing...
You heard what Giannone reported yesterday about what Ulf stated about Staal and McD right? THAT is trust, that is confidence. that is absolute perfection when you can report to your media that your top guys ARE your top guys.
AV's done this with our top goalie in Lundqvist, Ulf did it with or top D in Staal and McD, and Arniel is doing it with the PP in Zucc and Kreider (less so in the media, but we see the results on the ice).

-Adaptation within game... Though there are some outlier games, most games the team KNOWS how to respond to certain occurances. That's when coaching the players into preparation comes into play, and AV is solid at it

 

[bubba5]

I agree Cally is pricing himself off this team. But I think unless you can get multiple 1st round picks or a can't miss prospect with a first round pick, then you just have to keep him and see how this run goes. He is a playoff type of player, so what you get in the regular season will not be close to what you will get in the playoffs from him (assuming he is injury free, which has been an issue).

 

[ArPanet]

So basically you are admitting you were/are impatient and expect immediate results or we should give coaches the boot? I'm sorry but there are no legitimate excuses for that mentality.

If you are a Manchester United fan, there is.

 

[Callagraves]

On this team, at this point, I think its pretty clear he is the 3rd best RW. His usage is being scaled back, and I think MZA has surpassed him.

Also, you'd think using "on pace" stats for Callahan would be killed dead since hes injured a lot, but nope.

I wouldn't be using "on pace" stats if they weren't consistent with his career average (despite the awful start to the season, no less)

 

[NYR Viper]

6.5-7 is 1st line RW money. Not 2nd. Not 3rd. He's pricing himself out. Whether we like or dislike Callahan's game has little to do with it at this point.

The one thing I should say, in support of the people who want to sign Callahan no matter what, is that we really don't know what the other options are. Vanek and Moulson could land monster deals. I doubt Sather goes in next year with 10 million in cap space. What players, worse than Callahan and Girardi, might he give Callahan and Girardi's deals to?

Exactly. That is #1 RW money. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to invest in a LW who can play more minutes. Invest 7 million in Callahan, 3.5-4 in MZA and 7.8 in Nash. All playing in the same position. How do the Rangers then upgrade LW or Center?

No one has shown how they could do that while signing Callahan at that term. Callahan is a good player. It will hurt if he is dealt. However, they have (3) top-6 RW's and yet they have (1) top-6 C and (1) top-6 LW.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

If Callahan gets traded before the Rangers win their next game, what happens to the Broadway Hat?

 

[NYR Viper]

1. I love Zucc, but this is the very first full season he's ever played at this level. How confident are we he's going to keep up a 60 point pace?

2. Zucc hasn't been doing much PKing as of late, as it looks like AV has decided to stick with Boyle-Hags, Moore-, and then whoever the hell he feels like putting with Stepan

3. Pouliot is also on the Powerplay. It doesn't mean much. AV is just playing those lines + Richards at the point. I'm not a huge fan of it. Also, If I'm not mistaken, Callahan still has more points on the PP than Pouliot despite significantly less time there.

4. Look at their TOI and matchups. I'm a huge Zucc fan, (not so much Brass and Poo), but that line has done a fantastic job scoring against other teams lower pairings/lines.

Zucc may well prove himself to be a 2nd liner. Ryan Callahan has been 2nd liner for the past 5 years.

And I'll never say he's worth 6.8 or whatever he's asking. But referring to such a player as a "3rd line grinder" is just willfull ignorance.

He isn't a 3rd line grinder. But he is a borderline top-6 RW right now on this team. Zuccarello has been scoring at every level he has been at including being on pace for 40 points over his short stints in the NHL in the past. He is the Rangers best puck possession player. He fits the system and he makes the players around him better.

No one has made a good enough argument to change my mind that moving Callahan shouldn't happen.

 

[Kane One]

If Callahan gets traded before the Rangers win their next game, what happens to the Broadway Hat?

Maybe the next captain awards it, or the previous Broadway Hat winner.

 

[Thirty One]

If Callahan gets traded before the Rangers win their next game, what happens to the Broadway Hat?

Burned in a fire, probably.

 

[LORDE]

And I'll never say he's worth 6.8 or whatever he's asking. But referring to such a player as a "3rd line grinder" is just willfull ignorance.

And who called him that?

I called him a 3rd line RW

Which is what he is on this team.

 

[ArPanet]

For once the idea that just making the playoffs should in our favor re: keeping Callahan then letting him walk for nothing in the summer. 2012 playoffs Satherdid nothing. 13, gave up real assets for Clowe. Keeping Callahan hoping to win it all isnt on Sathers mind at all, imo.

 

[AHB*]

He isn't a 3rd line grinder. But he is a borderline top-6 RW right now on this team. Zuccarello has been scoring at every level he has been at including being on pace for 40 points over his short stints in the NHL in the past. He is the Rangers best puck possession player. He fits the system and he makes the players around him better.

No one has made a good enough argument to change my mind that moving Callahan shouldn't happen.

Agreed. And Zucc is much more likely, imo, to continue playing at the level he is now.

It is fairly clear that Cally is on a downward trajectory, while Zucc is on an upwards one.

We are, for better or worse, stuck with Nash.

The amount we offered Cally is already to much. Rescind the offer, 25 over 5. If you don't want it, we'll get some prospects and picks and/or possibly a competent third line wing.

We need a top 6 LW and C much more than a RW.

 

[bernmeister]

6.5-7 is 1st line RW money. Not 2nd. Not 3rd. He's pricing himself out. Whether we like or dislike Callahan's game has little to do with it at this point.

The one thing I should say, in support of the people who want to sign Callahan no matter what, is that we really don't know what the other options are. Vanek and Moulson could land monster deals. I doubt Sather goes in next year with 10 million in cap space. What players, worse than Callahan and Girardi, might he give Callahan and Girardi's deals to?

The bold, except he'll get it.

 

[BBKers]

Callahan is a 29 yo. 2nd line winger (not a 3rd liner IMO) with some nice intangibles that is hurt quite often due to his tenacious style of play. To pay such a player upwards of of 7 M for 7 years is pure insanity. Like it or not...

 

[Fitzy]

The bold, except he'll get it.

He'll get it with a team that doesn't have Nash and Zuccarello, yes. If we're able to deal him for an equal left winger, we've facilitated comparative advantage.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Burned in a fire, probably.

I feared as much.

 

[NYR Viper]

He'll get it with a team that doesn't have Nash and Zuccarello, yes. If we're able to deal him for an equal left winger, we've facilitated comparative advantage.

This is exactly right.

Let Fast or Miller play 3RW or bring in someone who is going to be less expensive and provide something the team lacks (Stewart, size, goal scoring, net front presence), and then use that added money + Richards buyout money to upgrade the LW spot or 2C spot.

What people aren't understanding is that Stewart makes the same salary as Callahan this season and next season. That fits comfortably. The cap will go up and the Rangers will be buying out Richards. That's a considerable amount of money to be spent somewhere. Do they like Vanek? 30 goal scorer. Adds size, strength and skill. LW version of Nash.

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Vanek-Brassard-Zuccarello
Hagelin-Miller/Lindberg-Fast/Kristo
_______-_______-Dorsett

Replace Callahan's reported 6.5 million he wants with Vanek's 6.5. Vanek gets more minutes and fills a void on the LW. The Rangers have more RW prospects than LWers. Fast, Miller, Kristo all are, or can play RW. Hrivik, Bourque, Yogan are LWers.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

A few facts, the cap was 56.8m when Toews deal was signed for example. They are cap friendly now lol? That is kind of my point. Toews got 11 percent of Chi's cap in 2010, that is equal to getting 7.9m this summer. 7.9m per would not be bad for a 22 y/o -- which Toews was when he signed that contract.

You are thinking exactly like Slats. Our way would have been to force Toews to take 5.75m over 3 years. Then being forced to match anyone on the UFA market.

You are NEVER going to get someone to sign long term unless you give a little premium. Just like Chicago did to a 22 y/o. A few years later however, you stand there thinking "wow those guys took cap friendly deals".

Go back and look, and you will see that it's. Exactly the same thing with Kane and Sharpe.

Hossa is signed until he is 43 I think. Surely that must mean that Chicago is doomed? Slats would NEVER risk that. This is how it will play out though. Hossa will play until he wants to retire. Who knows when that will be, 36/38/40. Then he got two options. He can go to a doctor and say (i) "hey I am hurt sign this paper" and collect a little insurance money or (ii) screw Chi by officially retire. But but but, he might be healthy??? I can promise you that there isn't a human born who could play in the NHL until he was close to 40 without having one single ligament, joint, back, head or whatever to point at. I mean, in reality it's the opposite. These guys has a problem to point at one part of their body NOT hurt. Watch Slats buy out Richards.

But, Slats will nickle and dime with Brass, Stralsy, Stepan, Hagelin and co so that they hit UFA market on a regular basis. Save a few 100k one year instead of locking them up. The result is that they will have less value on the trade market, we will pay them a lot more once those 1-2 year deal runs out (watch and see with Stepan), and we will jump on and pain insane contracts to players who paid their dues elsewhere.

It's sickening really.

Toews isn't Callahan, he's way better. Callahan doesn't deserve to take up any more cap space then he's taking up now let alone 3 mil more over 7 years. A Toews can take up that kind of cap space. A guy who has never scored 30 g or 60 pts can't especially not at those years

 

[ZacUSNYR]

What about other rentals? Trade Callahan to Phoenix for Vrbata? Not sure what Vrbata would want for his next contract, I think he'd be a decent fit on this team.

And Callahan could be enticed to take the team over from Doan.

I don't want Callahan to leave.

 

[NYR Viper]

What about other rentals? Trade Callahan to Phoenix for Vrbata? Not sure what Vrbata would want for his next contract, I think he'd be a decent fit on this team.

And Callahan could be enticed to take the team over from Doan.

I don't want Callahan to leave.

The more I think about it, the less I want a NHLer back at RW. Like I just pointed out, the Rangers have Kristo, Fast and Miller who can play RW. Leave that 3RW spot open.

 

[Hire Sather]

Its just not worth it for a Chris Stewart type. Hes UFA after next year and makes 4+ mill.

Could sign an FA for half that and replace the body.

Don't see it worth dealing the team captain, in the middle of a season where the team looks as good as its looked in a long time.

I mean, if we can get a Stewart, 1st, and a top prospect thats one thing but I highly doubt we get anything close to that.

I'm thinking its a Stewart type + a mid round pick. Not worth it. Keep him and let him walk. Take a shot this year.

 

[Vidic15*]

Had a dream the Rangers traded Callahan to Chicago for Brandon Pirri +. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[silverfish]

This is exactly right.

Let Fast or Miller play 3RW or bring in someone who is going to be less expensive and provide something the team lacks (Stewart, size, goal scoring, net front presence), and then use that added money + Richards buyout money to upgrade the LW spot or 2C spot.

What people aren't understanding is that Stewart makes the same salary as Callahan this season and next season. That fits comfortably. The cap will go up and the Rangers will be buying out Richards. That's a considerable amount of money to be spent somewhere. Do they like Vanek? 30 goal scorer. Adds size, strength and skill. LW version of Nash.

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Vanek-Brassard-Zuccarello
Hagelin-Miller/Lindberg-Fast/Kristo
_______-_______-Dorsett

Replace Callahan's reported 6.5 million he wants with Vanek's 6.5. Vanek gets more minutes and fills a void on the LW. The Rangers have more RW prospects than LWers. Fast, Miller, Kristo all are, or can play RW. Hrivik, Bourque, Yogan are LWers.

If for nothing else, I'd love to see the **** storm that follows if Vanek were to sign here than for less money that the Islanders offered him

Did you leave Stewart out of your lineup because this is without trading Callahan for him? Or two years down the line after he walks as an FA?

I don't think Vanek ends up anywhere but Minnesota this off-season though. Watching him and Zucc's on the same line would be a thing of beauty. And then we can bring the #LazyVanek trend to HFNYR

If/when Callahan walks, and Richards is bought out, Sather is sure going to have a lot of maneuver room. Doesn't someone here have a signature about giving Sather cap space?

Also, I guess most people are on board with / okay with giving Brassards his $4m QO? I still don't feel great about that, but we can't really afford to lose him and Richie this off-season. Unless Miller is ready for full time 3C duties next year, and we sign someone like Stastny (oh god, no, well, depending on contract, of course).

 

[ZacUSNYR]

The more I think about it, the less I want a NHLer back at RW. Like I just pointed out, the Rangers have Kristo, Fast and Miller who can play RW. Leave that 3RW spot open.

Miller has been interesting, you watch him in the AHL and you think this kid is ready for the NHL. You watch him in the NHL and you think he needs more time in the AHL.

I think Miller has the potential to be a callahan type player, he just needs to drop the reservations and bring it.

So do you ship out Callahan for a shallow draft, 1st round pick? Or a project? High side prospect?

Perhaps it might be better to hold onto him since he is one of the best rentals out there right now, go for the play off push with him (pending he's not injured, and would an injury be so bad when it came July 1st?).

The Clarkson/Horton/Clowe signings last year really **** the league IMO.