Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXXX

[Burrowsaurus]

Probably even top-5

This huge love for Chara is a little weird honestly.

I would put him tier 3, not next to Karlsson.

I would put all three above karlsson honestly. That’s not a slight against karlsson. I just think hossa and chara were perfect. Perfect on ice players. Alfie right below them. Karlsson after.

If we’re talking straight up hockey attacking talent. Like straight up hockey talent. Then karlsson probably 1

Chara eats karlsson up every day if the week tho in a real game tho

 

[Adele Dazeem]

I would put all three above karlsson honestly. That’s not a slight against karlsson. I just think hossa and chara were perfect. Perfect on ice players. Alfie right below them. Karlsson after.

If we’re talking straight up hockey attacking talent. Like straight up hockey talent. Then karlsson probably 1

Chara eats karlsson up every day if the week tho in a real game tho

In what way other than purely physical.

Karlsson skates circles around Chara at any point in their careers. Karlsson scores more, makes better passes. It's not close for me.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

In what way other than purely physical.

Karlsson skates circles around Chara at any point in their careers. Karlsson scores more, makes better passes. It's not close for me.

Yeah.The hockey talent sure. But hockey isn’t 1v1. if my team has karlsson. And the other team has chara…I would be very worried.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Alfie and hossa were no doubt top 10 players in their position at one point or another lol.

I said top 3 at their position or top 10 amongst all players. Alfie and Hossa, while awesome, were never that.

Chara and Karlsson were, at their peaks, the best defensemen in the league. Without a doubt. Norris winners and in the Hart conversation.

There was a time where if the entire league was redrafted, Chara and Karlsson would have been top 5 picks. Alfie and Hossa never would have been.

They are without a doubt in a tier above. If for nothing else than for how unique they were.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I said top 3 at their position or top 10 amongst all players. Alfie and Hossa, while awesome, were never that.

Chara and Karlsson were, at their peaks, the best defensemen in the league. Without a doubt. Norris winners and in the Hart conversation.

There was a time where if the entire league was redrafted, Chara and Karlsson would have been top 5 picks. Alfie and Hossa never would have been.

They are without a doubt in a tier above. If for nothing else than for how unique they were.

You may be ubderselling how unique of a player hossa was.

When was the time where they would both be top 5 picks?

That’s a pretty arbitrary thing so I’m not sure how you would answer it anyway. But that’s fair. I don’t think karlsson is garbage lol. Would totally get why someone would say karlsson is better than those three or better than Alfie and hossa

 

[Masked]

I said top 3 at their position or top 10 amongst all players. Alfie and Hossa, while awesome, were never that.

Alfredsson was top 5 in Hart Trophy voting in 2006 with Jagr the only winger ahead of him in voting.

Assen na yo!

 

[GCK]

Probably even top-5

This huge love for Chara is a little weird honestly.

I would put him tier 3, not next to Karlsson.

Prime Chara was a far more valuable player to winning than prime Karlsson and that’s not a shot at Karlsson.

 

[Micklebot]

Alfredsson was top 5 in Hart Trophy voting in 2006 with Jagr the only winger ahead of him in voting.

Assen na yo!

He was also 5th in pts/game from 2005-06 to 2007-08, 2nd among wingers behind Ovechkin while being one of the best defensive wingers during that period getting Selke votes in each year.

 

[Micklebot]

Prime Chara was a far more valuable player to winning than prime Karlsson and that’s not a shot at Karlsson.

Different types of valuable imo. Karlsson could win games on his own in a way Chara never did, but Chara could impact the game no matter what the situation called for.

I honestly don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Different types of valuable imo. Karlsson could win games on his own in a way Chara never did, but Chara could impact the game no matter what the situation called for.

I honestly don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

Well no karlsson couldn’t win games in his own. Which is why he’s missed the playoffs so many times. He couldn’t do it consintely at least. No hockey player can they’re off the ice far too often and reliant on goaltending. Neither could chara.

My argument is simply this. Karlsson was a flawed hockey player. Chara simple was not.

 

[GCK]

Different types of valuable imo. Karlsson could win games on his own in a way Chara never did, but Chara could impact the game no matter what the situation called for.

I honestly don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

There is a right answer. It’s Chara. Chara could run your PP1 while completely eliminating the other teams best players.

 

[Micklebot]

Well no karlsson couldn’t win games in his own. Which is why he’s missed the playoffs so many times. He couldn’t do it consintely at least. No hockey player can they’re off the ice far too often and reliant on goaltending. Neither could chara.

My argument is simply this. Karlsson was a flawed hockey player. Chara simple was not.

Sure Chara was flawed, he struggled against speedy players.

Karlsson absolutely took over games on his own, no player can do that every single game, but he was one of the few that could do it at all. Chara didn't do that.

There is a right answer. It’s Chara. Chara could run your PP1 while completely eliminating the other teams best players.

Oh, ok, since you say so it must be...

That's why Boston won multiple cups and has multiple Norris trophies right? Because he stood out so much?

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Prime Chara was a far more valuable player to winning than prime Karlsson and that’s not a shot at Karlsson.

Respectfully disagree. Karlsson has game breaking ability, Chara (although he could impose his will physically) does not.

Also, the same argument against Karlsson; that this is a team sport, also applies to Chara. He can't do anything by himself.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

There is no world where Alfie, EK or Hossa hold a candle to Chara in helping a team win.

why, because he won once? we should go by in game and in season impact. all of Chara, Alfredsson and Hossa were comparative level two way players.

Karlsson though breaks the scale in terms of his offensive and possession dominance that even though he is weaker defensively than them, he makes up the difference in his sheer talent to tilt the ice and the matchup in his teams favour.

I think if you put Chara in the 2017 team instead of Karlsson the team fizzles out and bottom 10s. With Chara it just does not have enough offensive talent to move the needle. But Karlsson was simply undefendable, because not only was hard to counter individually, his playmaking and hockey sense elevated everyone he played with. A different level of genius than Alfredsson, Hossa, and Chara.

 

[DueDiligence]

In what way other than purely physical.

Karlsson skates circles around Chara at any point in their careers. Karlsson scores more, makes better passes. It's not close for me.

And Chara keeps the puck out of his own net while making sure no one on the other team gets out of line. 2 things Karlsson was not noted for.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Alfredsson was top 5 in Hart Trophy voting in 2006 with Jagr the only winger ahead of him in voting.

Assen na yo!

Right, that Pizza line season was outstanding. But that was really the only year Alfredsson was up that high for individual awards. 5th in Hart voting that year, 4th in Selke. Other than that year, I don't think he finished higher than 15th in Hart voting in any other single season.

Hossa, finished 10th in Hart trophy voting twice (02/03 and 06/07) but never higher than that.

Karlsson from 11/12 to 16/17 (excluding the injury year in 12/13):

Hart voting: 8th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 5th
Norris voting: 1st, 7th, 1st, 2nd, 2nd

A 5-year span where he was a unanimous top 3 defenseman and top 10 player. And he'll no doubt be top 5 in Norris voting again this year.

Chara finished top 5 in Norris voting 8 times in his career, and top 3 6 times. He didn't get the Hart love because of his points, but that Norris run is just as, if not more, impressive.

A lot of this comes down to the longevity vs. peak debate. Chara had both. But I look at Karlsson like a Pavel Bure. Incredible talent and prime. Alfredsson and Hossa did it consistently for a very long time, but individually, they were not as good at their peak.

Prime Chara was a far more valuable player to winning than prime Karlsson and that’s not a shot at Karlsson.

Prime Chara also got to play with prime Bergeron and prime Rask so it might not be that simple...

 

[Hale The Villain]

This happens all the time and it feels like nothing ever comes of it.

He'll probably be dealt sooner rather than later though.

 

[Micklebot]

Right, that Pizza line season was outstanding. But that was really the only year Alfredsson was up that high for individual awards. 5th in Hart voting that year, 4th in Selke. Other than that year, I don't think he finished higher than 15th in Hart voting in any other single season.

Hossa, finished 10th in Hart trophy voting twice (02/03 and 06/07) but never higher than that.

Karlsson from 11/12 to 16/17 (excluding the injury year in 12/13):

Hart voting: 8th, 7th, 9th, 9th, 5th
Norris voting: 1st, 7th, 1st, 2nd, 2nd

A 5 year span where he was a unanimous top 3 defenseman and top 10 player.

Chara finished top 5 in Norris voting 8 times in his career, and top 3 6 times. He didn't get the Hart love because of his points, but that Norris run is just as, if not more, impressive.



Prime Chara also got to play with prime Bergeron and prime Rask so it might not be that simple...

He was 4th in pts per game among wingers 10th among all players over a decade, from 2000-2010 while being one of the better two way players. 3rd in raw pts over the same period,

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Chara with Prime Thomas and Rask, Prime Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, and Marchand, deep forward and d cores, stable coaching. Before that a juggernaut Senators club.

and what did Karlsson have? prime Melnyk and Turris? One was set up to fail by circumstance and the other to succeed.

Team accomplishments are so dumb when arguing these things.

 

[DaveMatthew]

He was 4th in pts per game among wingers 10th among all players over a decade, from 2000-2010 while being one of the better two way players. 3rd in raw pts over the same period,

Alfredsson scoring amongst forwards:

00/01 - 45th
01/02 - 20th
02/03 - 18th
03/04 - 7th
05/06 - 5th
06/07 - 16th
07/08 - 9th
08/09 - 27th
09/10 - 24th

The Pizza years were awesome, but Alfredsson's career is defined by amazing consistency, dedication and leadership over a long period of time.

Karlsson's career will be defined by a ~5-6 year peak in which he was a top 5-10 player in the game and an incredibly unique game-breaking talent. (Unless of course, he keeps going at his current pace for a few more years... then he moves into an even higher tier...)

Both great careers, both HHOF worthy, but personally I value peak over consistency when talking about "who's better".

It'd be like asking - who was the better Swedish center? Forsberg or Sundin? Both great, but I'd take Forsberg because of his peak. Some, though, would probably take Sundin.

 

[aragorn]

Chara was great in all three zones as a complete defenceman for most of his career, Ek was great in the O-Zone for most of his career. Chara was the better all around defenceman & it's not even close & that doesn't even bring up the fear factor that Chara put into players. He did everything well.

 

[Ouroboros]

This happens all the time and it feels like nothing ever comes of it.

He'll probably be dealt sooner rather than later though.

Seems to be some buzz about Boston making a strong push for him. That's where the Kings insiders think he's going apparently.

 

[Silencio]

Probably even top-5

This huge love for Chara is a little weird honestly.

I would put him tier 3, not next to Karlsson.

Chara had one Stanley Cup win in 14 seasons captaining a Bruins team that was a perennial cup favourite for a large majority of that time. Yes winning the Stanley Cup is a significant accomplishment (and it's obviously one more win than any Ottawa captain has ever had), but Tim Thomas was the main reason Boston won in 2011.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Seems to be some buzz about Boston making a strong push for him. That's where the Kings insiders think he's going apparently.

Interesting because they don't really have a need for an addition like Chychrun at all.

 

[JD1]

Okay. That’s fine and fair. Did it also taint alfie?


And that’s in martins defensive system. While also being a two way monster.

Then he went to Atlanta and legit babysat his line mates defensively and still put up 100+ point seasons.

Shame he even needs defending if we wouldn’t have traded him his number is definitely in the rafters and so is charts and likely two Stanley cup banners maybe more.

Because while heatley was demanding a trade and redden was falling off a cliff those two were continuing to put up monster seasons. Would have extended our window by almost another decade lol.

Two players like that along with Alfie. Non injury prone. And stayed great for nearly two decades lmao. It’s hilarious we didn’t keep them. Imagine being a juggernaut from 03 to like 2013.

So ya, to a degree Alfie was tainted too. But he stayed, we had a cup final and he became a cult hero.

You have to remember though that we were probably the most impacted team initially by the 39m cap coming out of the 2004-05 lockout. Hossa got flipped for Heatley, we saved cap, Heatley scored 180 goals in 4 years, 35 playoff points in 34 games, and we went to a final.

Same thing with Chara. Cap problems. And eventually budget problems.

No doubt looking back over 15 years later, keeping Hossa and Chara might have been the better play. But who knows, maybe we never get to a final with Hossa.

We had a long run as a legit cup contending team and never won. Hopefully we've got a window opening up here and we can have another long stretch as a contender