Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXXX

[Perratrooper]

If the Sens miss out of Chychrun, would there be any interest from Sens fans for Samuel Girard in the off-season? Colorado would likely be looking for a pick/prospect return with minimal cap going back.

 

[JD1]

Hossa was Batherson’s age when Muckler traded him. pre 2003 hockey was a different beast and players hit their primes at on older age. 30 points in 37 playoff games in his last 3 seasons with the Sens is impressive.

Batherson is 24. Hossa was traded just prior to his D9 season so he was a little older than 24.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The only reason I was comfortable with Chara leaving over Redden was because we were fresh off him getting owned by the small Buffalo players. There were a few sequences in particular where Chara was basically toyed with.

I was wrong, but to say he didn't have flaws is ridiculous.

And I don't know how you compare accomplishments considering the bad budget teams Karlsson played with in Ottawa most of his career and now in SJ compared to Chara ALWAYS having been on a good to great teams other than his first couple seasons.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Sure Chara was flawed, he struggled against speedy players.

Karlsson absolutely took over games on his own, no player can do that every single game, but he was one of the few that could do it at all. Chara didn't do that.

Oh, ok, since you say so it must be...

That's why Boston won multiple cups and has multiple Norris trophies right? Because he stood out so much?

When did chara struggle against speedy players? Late in his career sure. But in his prime? I never heard about his lack of speed or lack of foot speed. He was dominant defensively again all types of players.

 

[GCK]

Oh, ok, since you say so it must be...

That's why Boston won multiple cups and has multiple Norris trophies right? Because he stood out so much?

Chara was the best shutdown D of his generation. He won 1 Norris, finished 2nd twice and 3rd three times. That’s pretty amazing for a trophy that favours point totals.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Respectfully disagree. Karlsson has game breaking ability, Chara (although he could impose his will physically) does not.

Also, the same argument against Karlsson; that this is a team sport, also applies to Chara. He can't do anything by himself.

Karlsson had offensive game breaking ability hundred percent.

If the Sens miss out of Chychrun, would there be any interest from Sens fans for Samuel Girard in the off-season? Colorado would likely be looking for a pick/prospect return with minimal cap going back.

Mm no just not the type of dude we need right now

The only reason I was comfortable with Chara leaving over Redden was because we were fresh off him getting owned by the small Buffalo players. There were a few sequences in particular where Chara was basically toyed with.

I was wrong, but to say he didn't have flaws is ridiculous.

And I don't know how you compare accomplishments considering the bad budget teams Karlsson played with in Ottawa most of his career and now in SJ compared to Chara ALWAYS having been on a good to great teams other than his first couple seasons.

Chara was a maaasssssiiivvveeee part of those good to great teams you speak of. They’re not good to great without him.

Chara getting toyed with. Meh. May be some hyperbole.
Don’t forget the hero of heroes that got absolutely walked and showed zero effort on the OT goal that sank us.

 

[Micklebot]

Alfredsson scoring amongst forwards:

00/01 - 45th
01/02 - 20th
02/03 - 18th
03/04 - 7th
05/06 - 5th
06/07 - 16th
07/08 - 9th
08/09 - 27th
09/10 - 24th

The Pizza years were awesome, but Alfredsson's career is defined by amazing consistency, dedication and leadership over a long period of time.

Karlsson's career will be defined by a ~5-6 year peak in which he was a top 5-10 player in the game and an incredibly unique game-breaking talent. (Unless of course, he keeps going at his current pace for a few more years... then he moves into an even higher tier...)

Both great careers, both HHOF worthy, but personally I value peak over consistency when talking about "who's better".

It'd be like asking - who was the better Swedish center? Forsberg or Sundin? Both great, but I'd take Forsberg because of his peak. Some, though, would probably take Sundin.

Ok, so amazingly consistent for a decade with a couple peak years being top 5 in pts per game among forwards (2 years 2nd in pts/ game among wingers), so basically he meets that threshold of being considered top in his position, no?

Pizza line was considered the best line in hockey and he was widely viewed as the best player on that line,

When did chara struggle against speedy players? Late in his career sure. But in his prime? I never heard about his lack of speed or lack of foot speed. He was dominant defensively again all types of players.

Badly against Buffalo with us, it was a major talking point when the whole Redden vs Chara decision was being made. People were concerned he wouldn't be as effective in the post lockout NHL.

Chara was the best shutdown D of his generation. He won 1 Norris, finished 2nd twice and 3rd three times. That’s pretty amazing for a trophy that favours point totals.

I'm not sure that's even true, he was certainly among the top shutdown D of his generation and had the best longevity, but guys like Lidstrom, Weber, and Doughty all held the title at points during Charas prime.

I was and am a huge fan of Chara but his career is getting romanticized here.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Ok, so amazingly consistent for a decade with a couple peak years being top 5 in pts per game among forwards (2 years 2nd in pts/ game among wingers), so basically he meets that threshold of being considered top in his position, no?

Pizza line was considered the best line in hockey and he was widely viewed as the best player on that line,

Badly against Buffalo with us, it was a major talking point when the whole Redden vs Chara decision was being made. People were concerned he wouldn't be as effective in the post lockout NHL.

I'm not sure that's even true, he was certainly among the top shutdown D of his generation and had the best longevity, but guys like Lidstrom, Weber, and Doughty all held the title at points during Charas prime.

I was and am a huge fan of Chara but his career is getting romanticized here.

People were concerned….okay those people turned out to be wrong lol. Very very very very very very very wrong. The league only got faster. And chara only got better lmao. So….

I dont think Weber was ever better than chara. Except at the very end obviously.

And I don’t think doughty was ever better than karlsson. So I wouldn’t put either over chara.

Lidstrom of course all time great

 

[Micklebot]

People were concerned….okay those people turned out to be wrong lol. Very very very very very very very wrong. The league only got faster. And chara only got better lmao. So….

They were concerned because he got exposed. It's something that stuck with him, faster players were always more effective against him. He was still elite, but he wasn't the perfect specimen or anything,

 

[Sun God Nika]

If the Sens miss out of Chychrun, would there be any interest from Sens fans for Samuel Girard in the off-season? Colorado would likely be looking for a pick/prospect return with minimal cap going back.

Girard does not make sense to me. Sanderson and Chabot will carry the left side of our defence and take most of the minutes there. This team needs to be cap conscious as well and Girard makes 5M . Do not need. I rather have Branny there making 1m-1.5.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

They were concerned because he got exposed. It's something that stuck with him, faster players were always more effective against him. He was still elite, but he wasn't the perfect specimen or anything,

You would think a d man who struggles against speed and fast players would not go down as an all time great defensive d man in the fastest era.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Horvat signed at 8.5x8 .
- Was going to UFA
- No signing bonuses
- Two Way #1B Centre.
- Contract takes him from 28 - 36.

Hard to use it give Debrincat a comparable
- Going into last year of RFA with a 9m QO
- Top Line Winger
- Will be 26 next year.

With Sanderson likely to cost a pretty penny Sens got to be careful here. Max I would go is 8*8. Front loaded. Break the no signing bonus rule for him. Other agents can get pissed but too bad all their guys are already signed long term.

Yr 1. 1M Salary + 9M Signing bonus = 10M
Yr 2. 1M Salary + 8M Signing Bonus = 9M
Yr 3. 9M Salary
Yr 4. 8.5M Salary
Yr 5 8M Salary
Yr 6 1M Salary + 6M signing Bonus = 7M
Yr 7 1M Salary + 6M Signing Bonus = 7M
Yr 8 1M Salary + 5M Signing Bonus = 6M

= 8yrs 8M

Why Debrincat does it?
- Debrincat gets the amount of money from his QO straight up rather than earning it throughout the year. Money now > Money later.
- Debrincat gets buyout protection in the later years of the contract due to the signing bonuses his contract is guaranteed even if his play starts to dip later on.
- There aren't a lot of teams in the league if not any that can offer him 8*8.25 everyone is cash strapped. He can do his QO but gambles as a UFA later on.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

If the Sens miss out of Chychrun, would there be any interest from Sens fans for Samuel Girard in the off-season? Colorado would likely be looking for a pick/prospect return with minimal cap going back.

I would be.

Some Sens fans here will say he's "not the type of defenseman we need" but he's actually really good defensively.

Would Avs fans accept something like 2nd+3rd+Lassi Thomson?

 

[DaveMatthew]

Ok, so amazingly consistent for a decade with a couple peak years being top 5 in pts per game among forwards (2 years 2nd in pts/ game among wingers), so basically he meets that threshold of being considered top in his position, no?

No, not really. He was one of the best players over his career and should be in the HOF, but he was never viewed as the top forward, or even winger, in the league (even in his 103pt season, Jagr made the 1st All-star team at RW over Alfie because he scored 123pts).

For ~5 years, if you had asked “who is the best defenseman in the NHL?” - a large percentage of the hockey world would have said Erik Karlsson. Twice he won the Norris, confirming that belief. It was between him and Doughty for a while.

At no point, even during the pizza line days, would anyone (outside of Ottawa) have said “Alfredsson is the best forward in the NHL.”

Being the “best player on the best line” isn’t the same. Last year M.Tkachuk was the best player on the best line but no one thought he was the best forward or winger.

And this is in no way disparaging to Alfie. He may very well go down as having a better career than Karlsson. I’d probably bet on that. But he wasn’t the better player.

 

[Micklebot]

No, not really. He was one of the best players over his career and should be in the HOF, but he was never viewed as the top forward, or even winger, in the league (even in his 103pt season, Jagr made the 1st All-star team at RW over Alfie because he scored 123pts).

For ~5 years, if you had asked “who is the best defenseman in the NHL?” - a large percentage of the hockey world would have said Erik Karlsson. Twice he won the Norris, confirming that belief. It was between him and Doughty for a while.

At no point, even during the pizza line days, would anyone (outside of Ottawa) have said “Alfredsson is the best forward in the NHL.”

Being the “best player on the best line” isn’t the same. Last year M.Tkachuk was the best player on the best line but no one thought he was the best forward or winger.

And this is in no way disparaging to Alfie. He may very well go down as having a better career than Karlsson. I’d probably bet on that. But he wasn’t the better player.

That's some mighty fine goalpost moving, this started with you saying he was never top 10 in the NHL or top 3 in his position, so I responded with stats that placed him in that range, now you want top forward, if your going to change the parameters I think it's time to move on.

 

[Cosmix]

Horvat signed at 8.5x8 .
- Was going to UFA
- No signing bonuses
- Two Way #1B Centre.
- Contract takes him from 28 - 36.

Hard to use it give Debrincat a comparable
- Going into last year of RFA with a 9m QO
- Top Line Winger
- Will be 26 next year.

With Sanderson likely to cost a pretty penny Sens got to be careful here. Max I would go is 8*8. Front loaded. Break the no signing bonus rule for him. Other agents can get pissed but too bad all their guys are already signed long term.

Yr 1. 1M Salary + 9M Signing bonus = 10M
Yr 2. 1M Salary + 8M Signing Bonus = 9M
Yr 3. 9M Salary
Yr 4. 8.5M Salary
Yr 5 8M Salary
Yr 6 1M Salary + 6M signing Bonus = 7M
Yr 7 1M Salary + 6M Signing Bonus = 7M
Yr 8 1M Salary + 5M Signing Bonus = 6M

= 8yrs 8M

Why Debrincat does it?
- Debrincat gets the amount of money from his QO straight up rather than earning it throughout the year. Money now > Money later.
- Debrincat gets buyout protection in the later years of the contract due to the signing bonuses his contract is guaranteed even if his play starts to dip later on.
- There aren't a lot of teams in the league if not any that can offer him 8*8.25 everyone is cash strapped. He can do his QO but gambles as a UFA later on.

I doubt the Senators will offer Debrincat those large signing bonuses. 8MX8Y seems to be in the ballpark.

 

[Perratrooper]

I would be.

Some Sens fans here will say he's "not the type of defenseman we need" but he's actually really good defensively.

Would Avs fans accept something like 2nd+3rd+Lassi Thomson?

I would probably a bit more than that, but I also wouldn’t say it’s an outrageous offer considering the minimal to no cap going back. Although it appears you’re in the minority when it comes to interest in Girard.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Problem with Girard is that $5 mil cap. Way too much for what he brings to a team.

If we move Zaitsev along with a 3rd and 2nd tier prospect, than I could see bringing in Girard.

 

[Masked]

Chara was a maaasssssiiivvveeee part of those good to great teams you speak of. They’re not good to great without him.

He wasn't on the team that went to the Cup finals.

Assen na yo!

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Problem with Girard is that $5 mil cap. Way too much for what he brings to a team.

If we move Zaitsev along with a 3rd and 2nd tier prospect, than I could see bringing in Girard.

Is it? He's still a very good top 4 D-man.

 

[Daffy]

Hell no on Girard. He's not what we need at all. He's just not very good.

 

[Silencio]

I remember Avs fans talking about how Girard might be the best player in the Duchene trade lol

 

[Burrowsaurus]

He wasn't on the team that went to the Cup finals.

Assen na yo!

Too bad. Maybe we would have stood a better chance with him

 

[Micklebot]

Too bad. Maybe we would have stood a better chance with him

Given that our main issue was the offense getting completely shut down that's far from a given.

Maybe if we had prime Karlsson instead of Redden we'd have been able to overcome the Moen line. Who knows...

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Is it? He's still a very good top 4 D-man.

He seems very vanilla, to me. He's a good placeholder type in the top 4 in that he doesn't hurt a team in that slot, but that's about it.