Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXXIX

[bert]

you rather trade Cat then give up Greig?

Cat is becoming so underrated here

I dont think St Louis is trading Parayko for Grieg.

 

[bert]

That's a fine opinion, and it's never going to happen anyways, but this is not fact written in stone, it could just as easily be just fine with him fitting in with the boys.

Karlsson was really good last year too if you were watching. Not this kind of production, but he was playing really well before the injury both according to my eyes and Sharks fans. He was just fine there early on and cratered the same time the whole team did pretty much in unison. Burns out of the way and new coach and blam, he's killing it. Could go back to nothing, but I'm wagering he's figured it out. This is not some regular talent, this was a generational type talent that like Lemieux, Forsberg and many others before them may just have enough juice to play well after adjusting to body limitations.

I get it. Beyond the personality, it's an age argument, but yes, I am in fact arguing that a 35 year old could absolutely outperform a 28 year old. I think we would both agree that Thomas will never be as good as Karlsson was here or has been so far this year.

At the end of last year there was a poll of San Jose fans and Karlsson finished 2nd last in the likeable category. He didnt play close to his contract. They literally couldnt give him away, they had to choose Burns due to interest. I am a huge Karlsson when he was here in his peak but what an insult to Mario Lemieux he doesnt have Forsbergs track record either. Karlsson is on a heater right now no d man has ever produced like this over 82 games in the modern NHL.

Chabot will be a much better player than Karsson over the next 5 years of their careers. He has been the better player the last 200. You are basing way too much on a small sample size and refusing to look at the big picture.

 

[DaveMatthew]

This is not some regular talent, this was a generational type talent that like Lemieux, Forsberg and many others before them may just have enough juice to play well after adjusting to body limitations.

Teemu Selanne is another example. People thought he was cooked after his age 31, 32 and 33 seasons in San Jose and Colorado (32 points in 78 games was rock bottom for him in 03/04).

But the lockout gave him the opportunity to reset his body, and he had a damn good 2nd act to his career when he went back to Anaheim. Scored at basically a 40+ goal pace as a 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38-year-old. Win a cup too.

Chabot will be a much better player than Karsson over the next 5 years of their careers. He has been the better player the last 200. You are basing way too much on a small sample size and refusing to look at the big picture.

Chabot could certainly be better than Karlsson over the next 5 years. But let's not kid ourselves, he has not been good over the last 200 games either. He hasn't been a "stud" defenseman since Guy Boucher.

From a pure talent perspective, they're not in the same class. Karlsson is certainly a huge gamble with his age and injury history though – and the only way you take such a gamble is if a trade opportunity works out to make him quite a bit cheaper. But Chabot will never be in a Norris conversation. That I'm pretty sure of.

 

[bert]

Teemu Selanne is another example. People thought he was cooked after his age 31, 32 and 33 seasons in San Jose and Colorado (32 points in 78 games was rock bottom for him in 03/04).

But the lockout gave him the opportunity to reset his body, and he had a damn good 2nd act to his career when he went back to Anaheim. Scored at basically a 40+ goal pace as a 34, 35, 36, 37 and 38-year-old.



Chabot could certainly be better than Karlsson over the next 5 years.

But let's not kid ourselves, he has not been good over the last 200 games either. He hasn't been a "stud" defenseman since Guy Boucher.

He has been good for most of the last 200. He has been overplayed for much of it but still better than Karlsson who is 7 years older than him. Do you think that Chabot is going to actively regress from 23 for the rest of his career or do you think that coaching might have something to do with it considering he was better at 22/23? He will be the total exception to the rule for D men that just magically get worse after 23 years old? Come on now.

I find it incredibly intriguing that Karlsson gets a pass for his sub par play for a much longer period than Chabot does when he has his prime ahead of him and Karlsson is clearly on the wrong side of his career.

 

[DaveMatthew]

He has been good for most of the last 200. He has been overplayed for much of it but still better than Karlsson who is 7 years older than him. Do you think that Chabot is going to actively regress from 23 for the rest of his career or do you think that coaching might have something to do with it considering he was better at 22/23? He will be the total exception to the rule for D men that just magically get worse after 23 years old? Come on now.

I don't think Chabot is going to actively regress further, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to get much better. I agree that a change in coaching would be helpful to scale back his minutes, but I don't think he's ever going to be a 60+ point guy, nor is he ever going to be a stalwart defensively. So he's a bit of a tweener. Not top-end in the offensive zone, and has deficiencies in his own end.

EK's defensive gaffes were tolerated because he was beyond elite on offense. Chabot isn't.

Separate from the Karlsson conversation (which we can all agree is highly, highly unlikely), I wouldn't be surprised if Chabot is the one who ends up as the first "cap casualty" in 2-3 years. We may be in a situation where we're paying $8M a year ($10M in actual dollars) for a 2nd pairing offensive defenseman who's bad on the PP. There's a "Redden trajectory" that I could see happening.

 

[bert]

I don't think Chabot is going to actively regress further, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to get much better. I agree that a change in coaching would be helpful to scale back his minutes, but I don't think he's ever going to be a 60+ point guy, nor is he ever going to be a stalwart defensively. So he's a bit of a tweener. Not top-end in the offensive zone, and has deficiencies in his own end.

Separate from the Karlsson conversation (which we can all agree is highly, highly unlikely), I wouldn't be surprised if Chabot is the one who ends up as the first "cap casualty" in 2-3 years.

What you are saying is that he peaked at 22? Sorry I just dont buy it. He needs a new voice. Players dont just stop getting better all of a sudden or lose their ability.

You are basing this way too much on a small sample size. I am as dissapointed as anyone in his play and I think its the main reason for the poor start but boy do people have short memories around here. He is an incredibly talented hockey player. Happens all the time when someone gets a big contract and has been in a losing environment with absolutely no accountability. These guys arent robots as much as everyone seems to think they are.

 

[Micklebot]

Probably wouldn't work financially, since Sanderson is getting $8M+ on his deal after next season.

I think it would probably mean DeBrincat is gone just to get us past next year. If that happens everything can work out, we'd need to move Zaitsev and probably Joseph as well.

 

[DaveMatthew]

What you are saying is that he peaked at 22? Sorry I just dont buy it. He needs a new voice. Players dont just stop getting better all of a sudden or lose their ability.

You are basing this way too much on a small sample size. I am as dissapointed as anyone in his play and I think its the main reason for the poor start but boy do people have short memories around here. He is an incredibly talented hockey player. Happens all the time when someone gets a big contract and has been in a losing environment with absolutely no accountability. These guys arent robots as much as everyone seems to think they are.

Maybe? It can happen.

Chabot is turning 26 in 2 months. He's not that young anymore.

When did Redden really decline? At age 27/28? I see similarities between the two of them.

 

[bert]

Maybe? It can happen.

Chabot is turning 26 in 2 months. He's not that young anymore.

When did Redden really decline? At age 27? I see similarities.

First of all Reddens decline started at 29 thats 4 years older than Chabot. But you seem to be eluding to Chabot has a substance abuse problem? You're really digging in now eh. I see no similarities, Chabot is an extraordinairy skater and at this age Redden played for Canada in a best on best.

 

[DaveMatthew]

You think Chabot has a substance abuse problem? You're really digging in now eh.

What? What a weird thing to say.

I think Chabot is much closer to Redden, from a talent perspective, than to Karlsson.

(And that's not an insult. Redden was awesome here for a while.)

 

[Micklebot]

What? What a weird thing to say.

I think Chabot is much closer to Redden, from a talent perspective, than to Karlsson.

He's getting at the cause for Redden's decline, it wasn't because of his age.

 

[DaveMatthew]

First of all Reddens decline started at 29 thats 4 years older than Chabot. But you seem to be eluding to Chabot has a substance abuse problem? You're really digging in now eh. I see no similarities, Chabot is an extraordinairy skater and at this age Redden played for Canada in a best on best.

And a couple of years later he was unplayable. So he peaked at what, 24/25? Chabot is turning 26. Not unreasonable to think that he is what he is, and there's not a 2nd gear coming.

Luckily we have Sanderson ready to step up.

He's getting at the cause for Redden's decline, it wasn't because of his age.

That's a pretty wild assumption to make.

 

[Micklebot]

.



That's a pretty wild assumption to make.

I would say assuming his decline was primarily due to his age is a wild assumption given what is public knowledge of the situation.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I would say assuming his decline was primarily due to his age is a wild assumption given what is public knowledge of the situation.

Well no, not at all.

It's reasonable to think a hockey player can decline due to age at 27 or 28 (hey, it happened to Karlsson too! And Phaneuf! It happens all the time!).

It's not reasonable to blame a decline in performance on unsubstantiated rumours of drug use.

 

[bert]

And a couple of years later he was unplayable. So he peaked at what, 24/25? Chabot is turning 26. Not unreasonable to think that he is what he is, and there's not a 2nd gear coming.

Luckily we have Sanderson ready to step up.



That's a pretty wild assumption to make.

I mean you are being willfuly ignorant once again here. So no point in continuing the discussion. Redden was an all star level d man until he was 28.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Redden changed when his mother passed away in the 2005 - 2006 playoffs. He didn't start (or missed the first few games) the series against Tampa. He came back for the last few games I think.

I believe Alfie himself said that Redden just didn't care about hockey at the end of his tenure in Ottawa.

 

[Micklebot]

Well no, not at all.

It's reasonable to think a hockey player can decline due to age at 27 or 28 (hey, it happened to Karlsson too! And Phaneuf! It happens all the time!).

It's not reasonable to blame a decline in performance on unsubstantiated rumours of drug use.

Redden had a few things going against him, a double hernia surgery, his mother passing which he took very poorly, and then there's what you're characterizing as unsubstantiated rumours, it's fine if you choose not to believe them, but it's a small town, this isn't exactly a rando on twitter.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Redden had a few things going against him, a double hernia surgery, his mother passing which he took very poorly, and then there's what you're characterizing as unsubstantiated rumours, it's fine if you choose not to believe them, but it's a small town, this isn't exactly a rondo on twitter.

He also got older. Which happens to every player.

It's not unrealistic to suggest that a player may not improve after the age of 26.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

At the end of last year there was a poll of San Jose fans and Karlsson finished 2nd last in the likeable category. He didnt play close to his contract. They literally couldnt give him away, they had to choose Burns due to interest. I am a huge Karlsson when he was here in his peak but what an insult to Mario Lemieux he doesnt have Forsbergs track record either. Karlsson is on a heater right now no d man has ever produced like this over 82 games in the modern NHL.

Chabot will be a much better player than Karsson over the next 5 years of their careers. He has been the better player the last 200. You are basing way too much on a small sample size and refusing to look at the big picture.

That's because he's paid 11.5 million. That's reserved for generational talent playing at their highest level only to be able to be justified. He's paid like he's McDavid and of course his prior years didn't earn that contract plus the team was dogshit so it looked even worse. Burns played for much less and they still had to retain significantly.

I don't think that's written in stone simply because of age, but I guess we'll just have to let time play out to find out. Seems like everyone here has been ragging on Chabot for the last season +, so he's got a lot to prove as well. One thing I'm sure of is that Chabot will never touch what we're seeing from 65 this year or in his time in Ottawa and that's what I would be willing to take the risk to acquire I guess. I don't ignore the risk that exists there, but I think you're ignoring the realities about his play in SJ and some of the circumstances around it. Started out fine. Team cratered and he very much did too. Played well last year. Burns gone and new coach and he takes off as one of the best players this year. I hope it continues, just like I hope Chabot returns to form. He isn't coming here either way, but I enjoy seeing him find his play again after being dragged by those that seemed to enjoy his downfall. I've always thought he was such a special talent above most of his peers that he would figure it out eventually and get back to being a strong player.

 

[Micklebot]

He also got older. Which happens to every player.

It's not unrealistic to suggest that a player may not improve after the age of 26.

Players have ups and downs, he's currently on a down, I think it's unrealistic to suggest it's all downhill from here. He's shown he can play at a much higher level, physical fitness and health isn't the issue which is where you'd expect age to factor in.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Players have ups and downs, he's currently on a down, I think it's unrealistic to suggest it's all downhill from here. He's shown he can play at a much higher level, physical fitness and health isn't the issue which is where you'd expect age to factor in.

I never said it was all downhill. I never said he was a bad player. Would I be surprised if he plateaued, or declined, in 2-3 years, when he's 28/29? No.

But what I said, in the original conversation, was that in a fully unrealistic and purely hypothetical scenario where they both have identical cap hits, would I consider swapping him for Erik Karlsson for the next 4 seasons?

Yes.

I don't understand how that's some crazy opinion.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I never said it was all downhill. I never said he was a bad player. Would I be surprised if he plateaued, or declined, in 2-3 years, when he's 28/29? No.

But what I said, in the original conversation, was that in a fully unrealistic and purely hypothetical scenario where they both have identical cap hits, would I consider swapping him for Erik Karlsson for the next 4 seasons?

Yes.

I don't understand how that's some crazy opinion.

I've lost my way a bit on the subject, but that's really all it is.

Its already looking like Chabot may be playing second fiddle on the left either way.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

And a couple of years later he was unplayable. So he peaked at what, 24/25? Chabot is turning 26. Not unreasonable to think that he is what he is, and there's not a 2nd gear coming.

Luckily we have Sanderson ready to step up.



That's a pretty wild assumption to make.

Well it was well known + the decline happened way earlier than most players. It wasn’t even a decline he fell
Off a cliff.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Does Vancouver still own Tryamkin’s rights?

He was starting to look like a legit top 4 before going back to Russia. He’d be an interesting add.

According to capfriendly he is not listed on the reserve list for Vancouver. He was on that list last year. Based on that it seems like Tryamkin's rights have expired and now he can sign with any team once his KHL season ends.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Well it was well known + the decline happened way earlier than most players. It wasn’t even a decline he fell
Off a cliff.

At age 30, Redden played 22 minutes a night for us, scored 38 points in 80 games and was a +11. He had steadily gotten less effective between 27-30, though. He could still play, but was no longer considered a top pairing guy.

He fell off a cliff at 32 in New York, which isn't all the early (especially with the way the game was played in the mid 00's).