Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals PART XXXXIX

[DaveMatthew]

I mean, both Stützle and Batherson showed huge progress under DJ just last year. Young players had ups and downs under Martin back in the day too. Seems like when things are good we praise the player and when the players struggle its on the coach. I've got my issues with DJ, but the piling on seems a bit much

Stützle and Batherson took strides, in certain parts, of their game. Their offensive talent has never been in question. But they still have a lot of issues. They have a ways to go. Stutzle, Batherson, Chabot, etc are still making the same careless mistakes they were making 3 years ago.

So far the team this year looks very much like the team last year.

We'll have games where everything clicks for our young guys, offensively. We'll all sit back and say, "What a fun game! Look at the potential!" And that'll be great.

But then we'll have games where we'll play like the last two. We'll get caved in and will need the goalie to save us. The only reason we didn't give up 10+ goals over the last two games, like we would have last year, or the year before, is that Forsberg didn't play like Matt Murray.

That jekyll and hyde won't get this team close to a playoff spot.

DJ was fine as a coach for a rebuilding team that was shuffling players in and out and had no real sights on competing. Like I said, he seems like a great dude.

But for a team that wants to take a step and win more games than it loses? I don't see it. This group needs a coach/teacher, not a coach/motivator.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Thank you for the feedback, I figured it was worth the ask to be able to understand value of respective players on the Sens. My rationale was long the lines that Batheson was a stud last year and is off to an incredible start this year, but has missed some games and Pinto is off to an hot start to the year, but the sample size is small and he missed almost all of last year due to injury. Both are projected to be/are very good too 6 forwards however Pinto is largely unproven and both have some level of injury history.

The inverse is that Toews is definitely a top pairing defenseman and is arguably a top 15 defenseman in the league. Newhook on the other hand is a highly touted prospect who is certainly already an NHL player, but has struggled this year to carve out a top 6 role playing with Rodgrigues and Nichuskin.

Regardless, if Sens fans don’t want to move either/both of these two I totally understand.

As for Formentin for Toews, I think the equivalent would be offering Lehkonen for Chabot if Lehkonen had the chance of his career being ended based on speculation regarding the world junior team.

Ya that's mostly reasonable. I don't watch enough Colorado to really say on Toews and stopped watching early last playoffs, but was not under the impression we're talking a top 15 type D man. I thought he was more so a good top pairing support guy and a definite top 4.

Batherson could arguably be our best forward, and is on the cheapest deal of any of the big ones, so his value is just way to high to this team being an impact player on a lower salary. He's like the straw that stirs the drink out there. Pinto being a highly effective big body center on an ELC with RFA runway is also just too valuable to this team. With Norris going down for the year and not a lot of depth down the middle, there's no way they could afford to move him, especially considering his play early on.

You've just happened to pick two guys that are basically non starters regardless of the value coming back. This team is more likely to dip in to their prospect/pick depth to acquire anyone.

 

[bert]

Sure, but how do they become better? They need someone to coach them.

A coach's job isn't just to keep the mood light. A coach needs to develop young players. To teach them. Like Jacques Martin did with Hossa, Redden, Chara, Havlat, etc. Those guys didn't become top-end players by themselves. It didn't just happen.

It'd be one thing if it looked like an effort problem. But it doesn't seem like it. Those guys are trying. They're just making bad plays and going to the wrong spots.

DJ seems like a great guy. I have no doubt the players like him. But he seems very out of his depth.

I am no D.J apologist, his icetime distribution has been head scratching to say the least but.... They need someone to coach them?... What to play like they did under the same coach in previous seasons? Effort and execution have absolutely been issues for all 3 of them. I get people want a scape goat but he cant play for them. Your best players have to be just that these guys are out for a sunday skate at times.

 

[Big Muddy]

Definitely off the mark and those two are probably just a non starter. How about Formenton for Toews?

Formenton would not be enough for Toews imho.

Makar, Toews & Byram are studs and definitely the kind of players you'd think the Avs would want to keep but they could be expecting to have some cap issues next year.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I am no D.J apologist, his icetime distribution has been head scratching to say the least but.... They need someone to coach them?... What to play like they did under the same coach in previous seasons? Effort and execution have absolutely been issues for all 3 of them. I get people want a scape goat but he cant play for them.

They're playing the exact same way as they did under DJ for the last 2 seasons. They have games where things click offensively and they put up some points. Then they have games where things don't click, they try to force everything, make boneheaded plays, and are caught out of position a lot. The problem is there are too many games of the latter.

I'm not using DJ as a scapegoat. He's done a fine job, for what the team needed, the last three years (basically, a positive, lighten-up-the-mood motivator). I just don't think he's the right coach for this stage in the team's development when we're trying to shift to winning.

And yes, young players need coaching. A lot of it. Stützle is 20 years old. Telling him to play harder won't make him a better, more responsible center. Raw talent, alone, doesn't win. Every single team has tons of raw talent.

 

[Big Muddy]

Thank you for the feedback, I figured it was worth the ask to be able to understand value of respective players on the Sens. My rationale was long the lines that Batheson was a stud last year and is off to an incredible start this year, but has missed some games and Pinto is off to an hot start to the year, but the sample size is small and he missed almost all of last year due to injury. Both are projected to be/are very good too 6 forwards however Pinto is largely unproven and both have some level of injury history.

The inverse is that Toews is definitely a top pairing defenseman and is arguably a top 15 defenseman in the league. Newhook on the other hand is a highly touted prospect who is certainly already an NHL player, but has struggled this year to carve out a top 6 role playing with Rodgrigues and Nichuskin.

Regardless, if Sens fans don’t want to move either/both of these two I totally understand.

As for Formentin for Toews, I think the equivalent would be offering Lehkonen for Chabot if Lehkonen had the chance of his career being ended based on speculation regarding the world junior team.

Pinto doesn't have a lot of NHL games under his belt, but he's going to be a really good NHL player. There's not much mystery involved in that, but its going to take fans from other teams a bit longer to realize that.

BTW, I do agree that Formenton would not be enough to land Toews although the Senators and many other teams would love to Toews on their roster.

 

[bert]

They're playing the exact same way as they did under DJ for the last 2 seasons. They have games where things click offensively and they put up some points. Then they have games where things don't click, they try to force everything, make boneheaded plays, and are caught out of position a lot. The problem is there are too many games of the latter.

I'm not using DJ as a scapegoat. He's done a fine job, for what the team needed, the last three years (basically, a positive, lighten-up-the-mood motivator). I just don't think he's the right coach for this stage in the team's development when we're trying to shift to winning.

And yes, young players need coaching. A lot of it. Stützle is 20 years old. Telling him to play harder won't make him a better, more responsible center. Raw talent, alone, doesn't win. Every single team has tons of raw talent.

Stutzle is not playing like he did last year at any point. He isnt attacking the net with speed, he is deferring too much. That line isnt working they need to break it up.

Chabot is playing even more passive than ever.

Batherson is floating around alot. I cant believe how poor his engagement has been.

Maybe a new coach changes this, to me this is the biggest problem. I see people talk about system this and system that, they're playing one just not well. I see execution and urgency as the issues. Maybe the voice is stale, I dont know but it shouldnt be.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Formenton would not be enough for Toews imho.

Makar, Toews & Byram are studs and definitely the kind of players you'd think the Avs would want to keep but they could be expecting to have some cap issues next year.

Ya I just kind of threw that out there as the obvious guy we'd be willing to move, but it appears I'm not aware of how good Toews really is. Colorado is not a team of interest for me, so its mostly just highlights I've seen of him and the odd match up with one of the Sens/Nucks/Flames/Oilers that I watch.

 

[Big Muddy]

Ya I just kind of threw that out there as the obvious guy we'd be willing to move, but it appears I'm not aware of how good Toews really is. Colorado is not a team of interest for me, so its mostly just highlights I've seen of him and the odd match up with one of the Sens/Nucks/Flames/Oilers that I watch.

I'd love to get Toews or another defender of that ilk, so no problem there. Given that the Senators only play 2 or 3 times a week, that gives me another 4 or 5 days in the week to watch other teams and other games including the Avalanche. And, I will also watch a later game after the Senators one has finished. As an example, I watched that Penguins versus Bruins match last night. Bruins got 5 goals to stage a massive comeback on the Penguins who led with a good margin from most of the game. Boston have been good this year and they are only missing McAvoy now.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I agree Stutzle and Chabot have been bad this year, but Batherson was arguably the Sens best forward up until a couple games ago.

Wouldn't lump him in with those two at all.

 

[MarkStone]

I am no D.J apologist, his icetime distribution has been head scratching to say the least but.... They need someone to coach them?... What to play like they did under the same coach in previous seasons? Effort and execution have absolutely been issues for all 3 of them. I get people want a scape goat but he cant play for them. Your best players have to be just that these guys are out for a sunday skate at times.

This is the first long term coach pretty much for the entire core (tough to count the cup of coffee Tkachuk, Batherson and Chabot experienced under Boucher and Crawford). It's worth at least trying a new coaching hire, an ambitious one at that instead of a rookie coach or a World Junior retread, instead of making further drastic changes to the roster.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I'd love to get Toews or another defender of that ilk, so no problem there. Given that the Senators only play 2 or 3 times a week, that gives me another 4 or 5 days in the week to watch other teams and other games including the Avalanche. And, I will also watch a later game after the Senators one has finished. As an example, I watched that Penguins versus Bruins match last night. Bruins got 5 goals to stage a massive comeback on the Penguins who led with a good margin from most of the game. Boston have been good this year and they are only missing McAvoy now.

I would defer to your knowledge on Toews in that case. He certainly has good word of mouth and would be an upgrade here, but if he's that good he's not likely to be available. I used to watch other teams more before I had a kid in the house, but I do watch a lot of late games for the western Canadian teams still, or the odd big matches like you mentioned. I watch some Sharks to watch Karlsson, but they suck lol. Playoffs are over for me once I feel like I don't have a team to cheer for, so I didn't see another game after the Oilers lost to Colorado. Plus NBA, MLB & NFL eating up my viewing time. And a movie a day to end the evening usually. Just not enough time in the day sometimes.

 

[Daffy]

Thomson has showed it at the NHL level. Haven't seen JBD do it yet. Last place teams shouldn't be trading 20 year old first rounders until they show they're close. They already gave up a ton for Debrincat.

They gave up hardly anything for Debrincat.

 

[Hale The Villain]

They gave up hardly anything for Debrincat.

The 7th OVR pick was a very valuable asset, what are you talking about?

The guy the Hawks picked (Korchinski) looks like a future top 4 D, and the guy we were probably going to pick (Kasper) looks like a future top 2 C.

Also gave up the 39th pick + a future 3rd as secondary pieces.

 

[Dan Patrick]

The 7th OVR pick was a very valuable asset, what are you talking about?

The guy the Hawks picked (Korchinski) looks like a future top 4 D, and the guy we were probably going to pick (Kasper) looks like a future top 2 C.

Also gave up the 39th pick + a future 3rd as secondary pieces.

Right but Debrincat isn't valueless. Look at what Matthew Tkachuk just acquired in the offseason. Now i dont think Debrincat gets the same thing in return but I definitely think if the Sens pull the plug this offseason or even at the TDL next year we should at least be able to get back a 1st 2nd and 3rd (although obviously not as high on the board as the ones the Sens gave up)

 

[Hale The Villain]

Right but Debrincat isn't valueless. Look at what Matthew Tkachuk just acquired in the offseason. Now i dont think Debrincat gets the same thing in return but I definitely think if the Sens pull the plug this offseason or even at the TDL next year we should at least be able to get back a 1st 2nd and 3rd (although obviously not as high on the board as the ones the Sens gave up)

I agree with all of this. Just thought it was silly to say we hardly gave up anything of value to get him.

 

[Pinto Bean]

Yea with how bleak the top-4 defensemen market looked this off-season, you have to wonder if the best option to maybe getting one was to keep that 7th overall pick and then wait a few years in hopes the pick develops. I know it doesn't seem like a fun idea but I didn't realize how tough it was to acquire RD's in the league until now. Zub really was a miracle acquisition.

 

[bicboi64]

As much as I would have liked for Dorion to prioritize getting a top 4 RD over anything else, DeBrincat was acquired for a very good deal considering the price of some other forwards recently. The 7th overall is very valuable, and I'd expect it to only be moved if we're getting a surefire top 4 D or top 6 winger, one of which DeBrincat is.

 

[Big Muddy]

I would defer to your knowledge on Toews in that case. He certainly has good word of mouth and would be an upgrade here, but if he's that good he's not likely to be available. I used to watch other teams more before I had a kid in the house, but I do watch a lot of late games for the western Canadian teams still, or the odd big matches like you mentioned. I watch some Sharks to watch Karlsson, but they suck lol. Playoffs are over for me once I feel like I don't have a team to cheer for, so I didn't see another game after the Oilers lost to Colorado. Plus NBA, MLB & NFL eating up my viewing time. And a movie a day to end the evening usually. Just not enough time in the day sometimes.

Yep, never enough time especially if you're working and have kids. I totally get that. You live in an interesting location and yet cheer for a team far away (to the east). That's pretty interesting & there's probably a story there I'd guess.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

The team should do absolutely everything they can do keep Debrincat. We don't really have anything special on the LW after Brady and Cat. I think the Formenton situation looks pretty bleak.

It really depends on the Pinto situation. If he can be bridged for 5 mil or less, we can make it work cap-wise. After next year the cap shouldn't be an issue.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yep, never enough time especially if you're working and have kids. I totally get that. You live in an interesting location and yet cheer for a team far away (to the east). That's pretty interesting & there's probably a story there I'd guess.

Yes time is precious isn't it. Would sure be nice if we were more of a 4 on 3 off society, but so be it.

I was originally a big Penguins/Jagr fan in the early/mid 90's. I used to get pestered that I should be cheering for a Canadian team, so almost as if to spite friends, I chose the Senators over all their suggestions of Canucks, Leafs, etc. The jerseys drew me in as well. That was all before I even moved in from living country residential and we got cable tv instead of just CBC for the first time. That first Buffalo series in 1996-97 even though they lost hooked me in and that was that. I followed the Penguins too for a few years as I was a big Czech/Hasek fan and they had Nedved, Jagr, Straka, Lang & Hrdina from that team, but after they traded them away and drafted Crosby they became the enemy.

 

[Big Muddy]

Yes time is precious isn't it. Would sure be nice if we were more of a 4 on 3 off society, but so be it.

I was originally a big Penguins/Jagr fan in the early/mid 90's. I used to get pestered that I should be cheering for a Canadian team, so almost as if to spite friends, I chose the Senators over all their suggestions of Canucks, Leafs, etc. The jerseys drew me in as well. That was all before I even moved in from living country residential and we got cable tv instead of just CBC for the first time. That first Buffalo series in 1996-97 even though they lost hooked me in and that was that. I followed the Penguins too for a few years as I was a big Czech/Hasek fan and they had Nedved, Jagr, Straka, Lang & Hrdina from that team, but after they traded them away and drafted Crosby they became the enemy.

That's an interesting and unique route to take to become a Senators fan.

 

[GCK]

Bounced some questions off you guys yesterday and sorry if I have a very poor understanding of Sens players (have only caught a few games over the last couple years). Would something around D. Toews+Newhook+ for Pinto+Batheson be even in the realm of reasonable or these two to close to untouchable for Sens fans?

While Toews would be great to get he will be due a huge raise after next season which is when Sanderson’s contract is up. The way Sanderson is playing to start his career and looking at other post ELC contracts for blue chip D I think we are looking at 7-9M for him depending on his offensive production which looks like it will be higher than anticipated.

 

[GCK]

They're playing the exact same way as they did under DJ for the last 2 seasons. They have games where things click offensively and they put up some points. Then they have games where things don't click, they try to force everything, make boneheaded plays, and are caught out of position a lot. The problem is there are too many games of the latter.

I'm not using DJ as a scapegoat. He's done a fine job, for what the team needed, the last three years (basically, a positive, lighten-up-the-mood motivator). I just don't think he's the right coach for this stage in the team's development when we're trying to shift to winning.

And yes, young players need coaching. A lot of it. Stützle is 20 years old. Telling him to play harder won't make him a better, more responsible center. Raw talent, alone, doesn't win. Every single team has tons of raw talent.

I’ve said since the beginning of last season, keep DJ and bring in better assistants. The assistant coaches play a much larger role in day to day teaching than the head coach.

 

[Beech]

I’ve said since the beginning of last season, keep DJ and bring in better assistants. The assistant coaches play a much larger role in day to day teaching than the head coach.

who controls the hiring of assistant coaches. Per Pierre McGuire (I know.... not exactly a perfect sorce0. A team allows the HC TO HIRE ALL BUT ONE Assistant. The one Assistant IS A TEAM HIRE AND THE intent IS: A POSSIBLE REPLACEMENT FOR The COACH SUCH IT BE NEEDED.

sorry about the caps, big fingers, small keyboard. And so, of the teams 3 assistants (Cap, Payne and Jones). One is a team guy, the other two are DJ guys. Now what, who do you change and how and so on?