Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[Habricot]

I truly hope Gorton and his staff are going to go for the long term approach instead of trying to patch holes and become competitive as soon as next season like Bergevin did, but for the rebuild to be successful, they need to hire competent staff and scout.

Otherwise they will just spin their wheel and end up like the Buffalo Sabres.

Scouting and development is the most important part of the equation, and I have no trust the personnel currently in place will be capable of successfully orchest the rebuild.

Really hope to see some serious organizational change in 2022, but no needs to rush the hiring. I hope they find the most competent people, like they did for Gorton.

There is no such thing as going for a long term approach. There is no GM that want to win in 4 years not before. What you mean is that they will not sacrifice development for immediate success and commit to that long term. I am ok to have a team that struggles because our key pieces are developing in other leagues. Iam also fine to develop a culture of competing and playing the rigth way during that process even if we do notget these top 5 picks during that process. So yes.. all efforts should be towards drafting the rigth guys and developing them the rigth way...

 

[NotProkofievian]

Yeah I made it vague intentionally because it's really a pointless exercise to outline what I would do or rather, want done.

But I agree with what you just wrote above...make 5 or 6 first round picks in the next 2 drafts...absolutely, sign me up. Is it possible in the current situation?

It would take a lot of creativity.

At the very least, i'm just trying to add as many picks as I can for this upcoming draft...THIS upcoming draft is currently THE most important. At the very least, we should have the following after the trade deadline if we manage this right.

2 1sts (really 3 but one of them doesn't belong to us)
2 2nds
4 3rds (we already have 3)

Now you're talking about 8 top 90 picks...you can be very flexible and agile on how you use those, you can use them all to select players and keep adding to the group of prospects we have, or you can use some of those picks to target players on other teams who are still within an age window that we're after, you can flip some of those picks for next year's draft, etc.

After this, you reassess where you are...you look at players that are available via trade, potentially consider offer sheets if there's any available, etc...

There are a lot of things i'd look at to improve the team before I even considering throwing in the towel on next year. As a GM, he has a responsibility to the players currently on the team to not ice an expansion style roster all for the purpose of drafting the next big thing.

The development of Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, Harris, Ylonen etc is just as important, if not more, than trying to worm my team into maybe drafting Bedard.

It's not that creative. We have some expiring assets, we need to sell them. Simple as that. We could be further ahead than we are, but it is what it is at this point.

About the development of our young players, I agree. We need a new coach ASAP, Dominique has lost the room, he can't get his team to screw in a lightbulb.

One player that I am interested in from free agency is Andrei Kuzmenko from SKA St Petersburg. Could be a cheap option with some big upside. 2 year contract so we don't end up in the same situation as Radulov if he works out, you can probably agree to mutual termination if it doesn't.

 

[HabsCode]

There is no such thing as going for a long term approach. There is no GM that want to win in 4 years not before. What you mean is that they will not sacrifice development for immediate success and commit to that long term. I am ok to have a team that struggles because our key pieces are developing in other leagues. Iam also fine to develop a culture of competing and playing the rigth way during that process even if we do notget these top 5 picks during that process. So yes.. all efforts should be towards drafting the rigth guys and developing them the rigth way...

I'm actually fairly certain that a lot of GM had long term vision that didn't include winning right away starting from the bottom of the standing. Toronto not rushing Marner and tanking for Matthews, Detroit not rushing Seider, Arizona selling almost all of their valuable assets for picks, Anaheim GM openly talking about his rebuild plan recently.

The bolded is kind of a contradiction in itself. You say there is no such thing as a long term approach and all GM want to win now, but then goes on to say that you are ok with waiting for core pieces to develop in other league while the team struggles.

How long do you think it's going to take for those young players to develop? They certainly won't be ready before 2023-2024 at the very least, and then , they need to accumulate NHL season and playoff experience to play an important role in a Stanley Cup quest.

 

[417]

It's not about advocating to finish bottom 3 (which could happen even if the Habs decide to stay put and keep their vets core for the next 3 seasons), it's about not rushing the rebuild by signing UFA or selling future for NHL players to improve in the short term.

Selling some vets this season will make this team worse for next season and even 2023-2024, unless we replace those vets with better one which will be hard or if Carey Price come back healthy mentally and physically and has a great regular season, which he hasn't been known for the past couple of year.

All moves will obviously have the purpose of improving the team long term, even finishing at the bottom and picking an elite player make the team better. I'm not a proponent of destroying a team who is already a playoff contender just for the sake of tanking, but when you are already at the bottom, you have to be realistic in how much the team can improve in the next 1 or 2 seasons. And not rushing the rebuild allows you to possibly secure players at the draft which will greatly help the team for the next decade plus.

Debatable...also it would be hard to sink lower than what we've seen this year.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

That's evaluated in a vacum without considering who could be drafted / traded to replace them? If that's the case, the classification is worthless. If I expect Romanov can become as replaceable as Emelin do you still think he's a core piece? Same reasoning for Suzuki, although good centers are a lot harder to replace than physical dmen..

Wingers aren't core to me, unless we're talking Ovi.

You believe wingers can't be core players unless they're at the level of the greatest goal scorer of all-time? Seriously?

 

[Runner77]

That's awfully vague, and not really something we control. Here's something that I want us to do: make 5 or 6 first round picks in the next 2 drafts.

Those would be real opportunities to land offensive talent. Not like the darts that Bergevin used to flatter himself for, which were based on quantity over quality and never saw him move up to acquire extra first round picks.

I’m not concerned by how long it takes since it’s out of our hands anyway and Geoff has shown that he has no interest in implementing solutions that take too long to bring to fruition. It all hinges on the quality of incoming staff and whether ownership is willing to spend what it takes to bring in the best.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

It's not about advocating to finish bottom 3 (which could happen even if the Habs decide to stay put and keep their vets core for the next 3 seasons), it's about not rushing the rebuild by signing UFA or selling future for NHL players to improve in the short term.

Selling some vets this season will make this team worse for next season and even 2023-2024, unless we replace those vets with better one which will be hard or if Carey Price come back healthy mentally and physically and has a great regular season, which he hasn't been known for the past couple of year.

All moves will obviously have the purpose of improving the team long term, even finishing at the bottom and picking an elite player make the team better. I'm not a proponent of destroying a team who is already a playoff contender just for the sake of tanking, but when you are already at the bottom, you have to be realistic in how much the team can improve in the next 1 or 2 seasons. And not rushing the rebuild allows you to possibly secure players at the draft which will greatly help the team for the next decade plus.

Depending on the player (and they don't have to be a franchise player), signing a UFA/trading for a veteran player doesn't mean you're rushing your rebuild. It's ust about opportunity. Like, are we seriously going to argue that the Rangers were stupid for trading a 1st for Trouba one year after announcing they were rebuilding?

I agree that Price is a wildcard. Considering he admitted to substance abuse for years, it's difficult to know what kind of effect it had on his regular season performance.

 

[417]

It's not that creative. We have some expiring assets, we need to sell them. Simple as that. We could be further ahead than we are, but it is what it is at this point.

Yes for the expiring assets, those are no-brainers.

But for example a guy like Tyler Toffoli, who I believe has 2 more years @ a very affordable 4.25M with no trade protection, is a very attractive asset. The Habs could conceivably trade him for a package involving futures/current and come out flush from it, perhaps even better.

About the development of our young players, I agree. We need a new coach ASAP, Dominique has lost the room, he can't get his team to screw in a lightbulb.

That's all i'm saying...I mean, it's great on some level that we're going to be drafting in the top 5 this year. But there's been no progression from our young players this year. We're not better for it, the sacrifice of losing and picking high will have been wasted because of this.

This is how teams like the Oilers and Sabres have just spun their wheels forever. This is what i'm trying to avoid.

One player that I am interested in from free agency is Andrei Kuzmenko from SKA St Petersburg. Could be a cheap option with some big upside. 2 year contract so we don't end up in the same situation as Radulov if he works out, you can probably agree to mutual termination if it doesn't.

I've heard him mentioned, seems intriguing. I'm never opposed to taking a chance on talent.

 

[HabsCode]

Debatable...also it would be hard to sink lower than what we've seen this year.

The absence of the vets hasn't improved the team. We don't have any prospect yet that can just come in next year and have a better impact than what Toffoli, Gallagher, Petry, etc have. Unless their development is exceptional until the end of the season. They will need time seasoning.

At best we could trade those vets and sign some UFA to temporarily replace them while the youth is developing in other league, but the tier B players we could get the likes of Savard, Hoffman and Paquette won't improve this team short term.

We saw what loosing some vets like Danault and Perry can have on the room I agree that some good vets should be kept around like Edmunson, Anderson IMO, I just don't see us getting better next season unless a new coach comes in and has a Boudreau effect.

 

[417]

I'm actually fairly certain that a lot of GM had long term vision that didn't include winning right away starting from the bottom of the standing. Toronto not rushing Marner and tanking for Matthews, Detroit not rushing Seider, Arizona selling almost all of their valuable assets for picks, Anaheim GM openly talking about his rebuild plan recently.

The bolded is kind of a contradiction in itself. You say there is no such thing as a long term approach and all GM want to win now, but then goes on to say that you are ok with waiting for core pieces to develop in other league while the team struggles.

How long do you think it's going to take for those young players to develop? They certainly won't be ready before 2023-2024 at the very least, and then , they need to accumulate NHL season and playoff experience to play an important role in a Stanley Cup quest.

Marner was drafted 2015 played 1 year with London and went straight to the NHL
Matthews was drafted in 2016 and went straight to the NHL at the same time as Marner

Not rushed? Debatable...they got them to the NHL as soon as possible (rightfully so mind you).

 

[HabsCode]

Depending on the player (and they don't have to be a franchise player), signing a UFA/trading for a veteran player doesn't mean you're rushing your rebuild. It's ust about opportunity. Like, are we seriously going to argue that the Rangers were stupid for trading a 1st for Trouba one year after announcing they were rebuilding?

I agree that Price is a wildcard. Considering he admitted to substance abuse for years, it's difficult to know what kind of effect it had on his regular season performance.

I'm actually am for signing UFA short term while we rebuild IF we sell some of our vets, simply because you need some good veteran leadership in the room with a young core .

Choose the vets your targeting wisely on the UFA market.

If Panarin or Fox wants to force it's way here, I'm all for it.

What I don't like seeing is giving terms to the likes of Hoffman and Savard in a hope to patch holes left by Danault, Perry and Weber. Or trading a 1st and a 2nd for a nothing player like Dvorak. Bergevin attempt here was just to save face and keep fighting for a playoff spot ( I will give him the benefits of the doubt since the Habs are coming from a Cup Final apparence), but still, the team had a weak foundation for years and he didn't really tried to fix this with a long term plan.

 

[Habricot]

I'm actually fairly certain that a lot of GM had long term vision that didn't include winning right away starting from the bottom of the standing. Toronto not rushing Marner and tanking for Matthews, Detroit not rushing Seider, Arizona selling almost all of their valuable assets for picks, Anaheim GM openly talking about his rebuild plan recently.

The bolded is kind of a contradiction in itself. You say there is no such thing as a long term approach and all GM want to win now, but then goes on to say that you are ok with waiting for core pieces to develop in other league while the team struggles.

How long do you think it's going to take for those young players to develop? They certainly won't be ready before 2023-2024 at the very least, and then , they need to accumulate NHL season and playoff experience to play an important role in a Stanley Cup quest.

Its not a contradiction, its a philosophie. MB had the rigth philosophie. He just did not stick to it all the times and made compromises. You cant do that. If you look at successful organixzation you are in a constant rebuild. Look at the roster Tempa had 3 years ago.. very different. Yet they still manage to draft and develop guys that fit rigth in.

 

[417]

The absence of the vets hasn't improved the team. We don't have any prospect yet that can just come in next year and have a better impact than what Toffoli, Gallagher, Petry, etc have. Unless their development is exceptional until the end of the season. They will need time seasoning.

At best we could trade those vets and sign some UFA to temporarily replace them while the youth is developing in other league, but the tier B players we could get the likes of Savard, Hoffman and Paquette won't improves this team short term.

We saw what loosing some vets like Danault and Perry can have on the room I agree that some good vets should be kept around like Edmunson, Anderson IMO, I just don't see us getting better next season unless a new coach comes in and has a Boudreau effect.

If they care about the future of this team...there's absolutely no circumstance where they can retain Dominique Ducharme. I repeat...NO CIRCUMSTANCE POSSIBLE TO KEEP DOMINIQUE DUCHARME PAST THIS YEAR lol.

It can be argued he's hurting anything that Gorton/NewGM are going to implement any way.

 

[HabsCode]

Marner was drafted 2015 played 1 year with London and went straight to the NHL
Matthews was drafted in 2016 and went straight to the NHL at the same time as Marner

Not rushed? Debatable...they got them to the NHL as soon as possible.

They could have rushed Marner straight away after his draft since he was already dominating the OHL and could have had a spot in the line up with their poor offense(Kadri was their best offensive player the year before with 45 points in 76 games) but they prefered to keep him in junior knowing full well that Matthews and Laine were available the next draft.

And this is what I would advocate. Aquiring 2 elite prospect back to back as a result of being bottom feeders for 2-3 years instead of rushing the process like we did with Kotkaniemi.

 

[Habricot]

I'm actually am for signing UFA short term while we rebuild IF we sell some of our vets, simply because you need some good veteran leadership in the room with a young core .

Choose the vets your targeting wisely on the UFA market.

If Panarin or Fox wants to force it's way here, I'm all for it.

What I don't like seeing is giving terms to the likes of Hoffman and Savard in a hope to patch holes left by Danault, Perry and Weber. Or trading a 1st and a 2nd for a nothing player like Dvorak. Bergevin attempt here was just to save face and keep fighting for a playoff spot ( I will give him the benefits of the doubt since the Habs are coming from a Cup Final apparence), but still, the team had a weak foundation for years and he didn't really tried to fix this with a long term plan.

See I do not mind Savard. He fits in the culture of having strong vet presence to develop your young D core. But Hoffman? Dvorak is still young and not surewe have seen the best of him. I am ok with that move and would have been ok with keeping Danault as well. The signing that is was the most questionable is gallagher. At a certain point youcant fall in love too much with your players.

So Remove Gallagher, Hoffman and Drouin's contract and we are not in such a bad place cap wise.

 

[Frank JT]

Buffalo is not a good example of rebuilding. Several errors along the way: bad signatures, wanting to go back a little too quickly, the Eichel file. That said, I would swap the CH team for the Buffalo team in a heartbeat.

Jack Quinn - Cozens - Tage Thompson
Krebs - Mittlestad - Alex Tuch
Girgensons - Asplund - Rosen / Peterka

Dahlin - Jokiharju
Power - Kukkonen

G Luukkonen, Subban

And they will have another big draft in June: their 1st top pick 5-10, plus Florida and Vegas first (end of 1st round) and their 2nd round (top40). Already next year we should see the team come back up, and in 2 years they should be in the teams that will go for the Stanley cup.

 

[417]

See I do not mind Savard. He fits in the culture of having strong vet presence to develop your young D core. But Hoffman? Dvorak is still young and not surewe have seen the best of him. I am ok with that move and would have been ok with keeping Danault as well. The signing that is was the most questionable is gallagher. At a certain point youcant fall in love too much with your players.

So Remove Gallagher, Hoffman and Drouin's contract and we are not in such a bad place cap wise.

The Danault/Kotkaniemi/Dvorak cluster***k was so badly handled.

Also, the Cup run skewed things and while I don't want to defend Bergevin, I get why he made some of the moves he made...but as the General overseer, he needed to stick to the "reset" he had initiated back in 2018, instead it's like he tried to makes moves to get back to the Cup.

That was ill advised.

I know it's hindsight...but did he need to go out and try to "replace" Weber with Savard or Danault with Dvorak (via losing Kotkaniemi)...I like Hoffman more than most but I can recognize that the fit is odd.

 

[Frank JT]

See I do not mind Savard. He fits in the culture of having strong vet presence to develop your young D core. But Hoffman? Dvorak is still young and not surewe have seen the best of him. I am ok with that move and would have been ok with keeping Danault as well. The signing that is was the most questionable is gallagher. At a certain point youcant fall in love too much with your players.

So Remove Gallagher, Hoffman and Drouin's contract and we are not in such a bad place cap wise.

Don't forget Price.

 

[HabsCode]

See I do not mind Savard. He fits in the culture of having strong vet presence to develop your young D core. But Hoffman? Dvorak is still young and not surewe have seen the best of him. I am ok with that move and would have been ok with keeping Danault as well. The signing that is was the most questionable is gallagher. At a certain point youcant fall in love too much with your players.

So Remove Gallagher, Hoffman and Drouin's contract and we are not in such a bad place cap wise.

Drouin is off the book next summer, it shouldn't be hard to move him next season if he has an ok start of the campain.

What's going to hurt is Gallagher, Petry and Price. If they can't get back to form, we will have to wait after our futur picks ELC contracts are up to push to compete (which is usally a good window to push for it, just before those stars start asking for big contract).

Suzuki contract is gonna take lot of space on the mass, so before we can sign big UFA name or aquire big name in the trade market for a push, we will have to wait around 2024-2025 for Petry to be tradable, and later for Gallagher and Price.

That's why I don't see us seriously improving/make a push before 2024-2025, unless our picks flourish and our current young prospect live up to their full potential while still being on their ELC.

 

[Habricot]

They could have rushed Marner straight away after his draft since he was already dominating the OHL and could have had a spot in the line up with their poor offense(Kadri was their best offensive player the year before with 45 points in 76 games) but they prefered to keep him in junior knowing full well that Matthews and Laine were available the next draft.

And this is what I would advocate. Aquiring 2 elite prospect back to back as a result of being bottom feeders for 2-3 years instead of rushing the process like we did with Kotkaniemi.

There is also luck with this... there was two consecutive (or close) years with talent of that level ... e.g Crosby-Malkin, Mathews-Marner, Toews-Kane, McDavid-Driseitl...

This is not just good drafting and development philosophie, its also luck...

 

[HabsCode]

There is also luck with this... there was two consecutive (or close) years with talent of that level ... e.g Crosby-Malkin, Mathews-Marner, Toews-Kane, McDavid-Driseitl...

This is not just good drafting and development philosophie, its also luck...

It's drafting the right player, and yes a part of it is luck.

But you position yourself to draft those player when you are at the bottom of the league, like it or not.

It doesn't have to be generational talent to change a team. Seider and Raymond are doing it for Detroit. Huberdeau, Ekblad and Barkov are doing it for Florida. Hedman-Stamkos did it for Tampa in the past. Landeskog, Mackinnon and Rantanen for Colorado. Zegras and Terry ( a late pick but still) (with Milano of course) greatly improved the Ducks this season. Aho and Svechnikov in Carolina.

2/3 young elite player are enough to make a difference.

 

[417]

It's drafting the right player, and yes a part of it is luck.

But you position yourself to draft those player when you are at the bottom of the league, like it or not.

It doesn't have to be generational talent to change a team. Seider and Raymond are doing it for Detroit. Huberdeau, Ekblad and Barkov are doing it for Florida. Hedman-Stamkos did it for Tampa in the past. Landeskog, Mackinnon and Rantanen for Colorado. Zegras and Terry ( a late pick but still) (with Milano of course) greatly improved the Ducks this season. Aho and Svechnikov in Carolina.

2/3 young elite player are enough to make a difference.

Huberdeau is an interest case study

it took 6 years for him to become a PPG player…would we have had the same patience as fans?

Half of us wanted to run Kotkaniemi out of town after 3yrs

 

[HabsCode]

Huberdeau is an interest case study

it took 6 years for him to become a PPG player…would we have had the same patience as fans?

Half of us wanted to run Kotkaniemi out of town after 3yrs

He was putting 50+ points season in his D+4 season thought (KK current season). And he had a strong rookie season. AND he was near PPG before getting injured in his D+5.

I'm one of those who would have been more patient with KK, but I think if he had the progression Huberdeau had starting this season, fans would have been ok with it.

 

[417]

He was putting 50+ points season in his D+4 season thought (KK current season). And he had a strong rookie season. AND he was near PPG before getting injured in his D+5.

I'm one of those who would have been more patient with KK, but I think if he had the progression Huberdeau had starting this season, fans would have been ok with it.

Yes...he was also getting a lot more ice time.

But anyway, it was just was an observation.

The same people (not saying you) screaming for rebuild, have the least amount of patience.

 

[Frank JT]

Huberdeau is an interest case study

it took 6 years for him to become a PPG player…would we have had the same patience as fans?

Half of us wanted to run Kotkaniemi out of town after 3yrs

My answer is yes.
KK has been mismanaged from the start. He was a long-term project since the day he was drafted (said by Timmins), but he was brought in too quickly to fill the needs, instead of taking care of his development.
We will have to learn from those mistakes and being more patient.