HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #88: 2024 Off-Season Thread

[Colezuki]

Stevie Y is a decent GM, but he no longer has the advantage of being in Florida, where players want to go and others want to stay........weather, taxes were a selling feature down there, but in Michigan, not so much.

He can't bully player contracts in Michigan like in Florida

 

[DAChampion]

Draisatl's payday is well deserved.

 

[salbutera]

He can't bully player contracts in Michigan like in Florida

He sure is trying w Seider et al as he did with Kucherov

 

[Captain Mountain]

He can't bully player contracts in Michigan like in Florida

He can and has, its more that he hasn't had the same kind of luck in Detroit he got in Tampa. GMs/scouting staffs don't reliably hit on prospects like Kucherov, Vasilevsky and Point like Tampa did, there's an undeniable luck element there.

 

[salbutera]

He can and has, its more that he hasn't had the same kind of luck in Detroit he got in Tampa. GMs/scouting staffs don't reliably hit on prospects like Kucherov, Vasilevsky and Point like Tampa did, there's an undeniable luck element there.

Let alone inherit two young elite talents like Stamkos & Hedman …

 

[Whalers Fan]

Stevie Y is a decent GM, but he no longer has the advantage of being in Florida, where players want to go and others want to stay........weather, taxes were a selling feature down there, but in Michigan, not so much.

I think he is also more constrained by the purse strings of ownership. Mike Illitch's kids are now running the show, and based on what's happened with the Detroit Tigers under their watch, they do not seem willing to spend whatever it takes to win like their late father.

 

[salbutera]

I think he is also more constrained by the purse strings of ownership. Mike Illitch's kids are now running the show, and based on what's happened with the Detroit Tigers under their watch, they do not seem willing to spend whatever it takes to win like their late father.

They’re spending to cap ceiling and have one of the largest scouting & player development staffs what else is there to spend on?

I said it before Stevie Y started his Dead Things gig, there’s no such thing as elite GM - a no tax, team friendly market is the best GM

 

[Walksss]

They’re spending to cap ceiling and have one of the largest scouting & player development staffs what else is there to spend on?

I said it before Stevie Y started his Dead Things gig, there’s no such thing as elite GM - a no tax, team friendly market is the best GM

There's no such thing as elite GMs because free agents prefer different places based on weather and taxes?

There's like a hundred different things that a GM does/can do to build a team. What about scouting/drafting/trades/contracts/development/coaching/culture or whatever else you can use to build an organization? Yours might be the must reductive point of view I've ever heard.

 

[salbutera]

There's no such thing as elite GMs because free agents prefer different places based on weather and taxes?

There's like a hundred different things that a GM does/can do to build a team. What about scouting/drafting/trades/contracts/development/coaching/culture or whatever else you can use to build an organization? Yours might be the must reductive point of view I've ever heard.

Look historically since intro of cap, GMs who’ve had a record of success in one org, have difficulty repeating their blueprints.

Scouting 18-year olds is a crap shoot at the best of times, historically even drafting success for a GM doesn’t last more than 3-4 years, and that’s for the best situations. Stevie Y was perfect example 2010-2014 drafting success couldn’t be extended in TBay or repeated in Det

Roster construction is heavily skewed on contract obligations - which is significantly less burdensome in no tax markets.

 

[Walksss]

Look historically since intro of cap, GMs who’ve had a record of success in one org, have difficulty repeating their blueprints.

Scouting 18-year olds is a crap shoot at the best of times, historically even drafting success for a GM doesn’t last more than 3-4 years, and that’s for the best situations. Stevie Y was perfect example 2010-2014 drafting success couldn’t be extended in TBay or repeated in Det

Roster construction is heavily skewed on contract obligations - which is significantly less burdensome in no tax markets.

Yeah I'm gonna have to completely disagree with your entire premise here. I really don't care about the small sample size you can present of GMs that have changed organizations and failed to have success, it is meaningless. Besides there are examples of GMs moving and having success elsewhere anyways but that is also small sample size noise.

If you're statement is scouting, drafting and development is completely dependent on luck and is 'a crapshoot at the best of times' I would imagine you're in a small minority that would share that opinion, especially on this site lol.

Even besides that contract management is absolutely a hallmark of elite GMs versus garbage ones. You literally have an example right in front of your eyes with the contracts Hughes has signed vs Bergevin's. How can you miss that?

There is so much more than just that as well, what about defining team structure? Is that luck-based? Trades? Coaching philosophy? Development both professionally and at the amateur level? Surely professional scouting isn't a crapshoot. All of that and quite a bit more go into defining the success of a GM, not just who they sign in free agency and at what cost, that's crazy.

 

[CHfan1]

Stevie Y is a decent GM, but he no longer has the advantage of being in Florida, where players want to go and others want to stay........weather, taxes were a selling feature down there, but in Michigan, not so much.

I’d argue Tampa’s success was more from drafting 4 future hall of fame players (Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, Hedman, and Stamkos) plus drafting Point, Palat, Killorn, and trading for players like Sergachev than getting players to go to Tampa because of weather and taxes.

 

[rahad]

I’d argue Tampa’s success was more from drafting 4 future hall of fame players (Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, Hedman, and Stamkos) plus drafting Point, Palat, Killorn, and trading for players like Sergachev than getting players to go to Tampa because of weather and taxes.

Seriously, Tampa Bay and Dallas are the two best team at drafting. They drafted the main rooster.

You said 4 future hall of fame players. I will say is probably 5. Point is very much underestimated in the league. He has Tampa bay best center in the last 2 stanley cup win. 2 wins and one lost in the finals.

If he keep that 85+pts for the next 5 years. He could one day join the hall of fame. It is kinda crazy that Tampa Bay drafted 5 potential hall of fame players in the last 20 years.

 

[McGees]

Edmonton looking at Toronto and saying...That's how you build a contender...

(it's ok Crosby is the UFA we actually need next year)

 

[BLONG7]

I’d argue Tampa’s success was more from drafting 4 future hall of fame players (Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, Hedman, and Stamkos) plus drafting Point, Palat, Killorn, and trading for players like Sergachev than getting players to go to Tampa because of weather and taxes.

Players who want to go, and others want to stay....I mentioned both.
Rarely do they leave, unless traded.

Tampa were an absolute model franchise for 10-12 years, before during and after Stevie Y. They were doing everything right.....Stevie has to get some of that credit for sure.
remains to be seen if he can do the same in Detroit.

 

[salbutera]

Yeah I'm gonna have to completely disagree with your entire premise here. I really don't care about the small sample size you can present of GMs that have changed organizations and failed to have success, it is meaningless. Besides there are examples of GMs moving and having success elsewhere anyways but that is also small sample size noise.

If you're statement is scouting, drafting and development is completely dependent on luck and is 'a crapshoot at the best of times' I would imagine you're in a small minority that would share that opinion, especially on this site lol.

Even besides that contract management is absolutely a hallmark of elite GMs versus garbage ones. You literally have an example right in front of your eyes with the contracts Hughes has signed vs Bergevin's. How can you miss that?

There is so much more than just that as well, what about defining team structure? Is that luck-based? Trades? Coaching philosophy? Development both professionally and at the amateur level? Surely professional scouting isn't a crapshoot. All of that and quite a bit more go into defining the success of a GM, not just who they sign in free agency and at what cost, that's crazy.

Waiting for a prospect to physically / emotionally mature I agree exists but “Development” is the ultimate BS red herring - if it existed anyone could convert chicken shit to chicken salad.

Zadina wasn’t a bust because of poor development - he simply doesn’t possess elite hunger to do whatever it takes to be successful & he likely never did

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Waiting for a prospect to physically / emotionally mature I agree exists but “Development” is the ultimate BS red herring - if it existed anyone could convert chicken shit to chicken salad.

Zadina wasn’t a bust because of poor development - he simply doesn’t possess elite hunger to do whatever it takes to be successful & he likely never did

Its funny though, he must be bad at self assessment because if you had compete level why would you walk away from guaranteed money like he did in.DET?

 

[the]

The Red Wings got one of the league’s deepest pipelines in terms of prospects. They were literally a playoff team already last season. I wouldn’t write-off Yzerman this easily.

A few of those prospects graduate, you give them time to mature and Detroit will be good for many years.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Waiting for a prospect to physically / emotionally mature I agree exists but “Development” is the ultimate BS red herring - if it existed anyone could convert chicken shit to chicken salad.

Zadina wasn’t a bust because of poor development - he simply doesn’t possess elite hunger to do whatever it takes to be successful & he likely never did

Development is NOT a red herring. Players that are not finished products fail as much because of idiots like Lefebvre as they do because of lack of talent.

 

[Walksss]

Waiting for a prospect to physically / emotionally mature I agree exists but “Development” is the ultimate BS red herring - if it existed anyone could convert chicken shit to chicken salad.

Zadina wasn’t a bust because of poor development - he simply doesn’t possess elite hunger to do whatever it takes to be successful & he likely never did

So the organization is wasting its time with Adam Nicholas, Scott Pellerin, Marie Phillipe Poulin, Dr. Shot, Frankie Bouillon, Rob Ramage, Alex Burrows, Paul Byron etc? Seeing as how they can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit anyways because the drafting is just throwing darts and hoping in the first place.

Is that your actual thoughts?

The entire scouting staff is worthless too cause it's a crapshoot at best. That's like 70% of the organizations labour overhead between scouting and development they should just cut if thats true. If the kids gonna make it, they'll make it no?

Your take is easily 3 decades expired, honestly more like 4. That's such an old school way of thinking it makes the Mike Babcock method seem cutting edge.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

So the organization is wasting its time with Adam Nicholas, Scott Pellerin, Marie Phillipe Poulin, Dr. Shot, Frankie Bouillon, Rob Ramage, Alex Burrows, Paul Byron etc? Seeing as how they can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit anyways because the drafting is just throwing darts and hoping in the first place.

Is that your actual thoughts?

The entire scouting staff is worthless too cause it's a crapshoot at best. That's like 70% of the organizations labour overhead between scouting and development they should just cut if thats true. If the kids gonna make it, they'll make it no?

Your take is easily 3 decades expired, honestly more like 4. That's such an old school way of thinking it makes the Mike Babcock method seem cutting edge.

Actually that pretty much defines Bargain Bin's strategy.

 

[Habssince89]

Waiting for a prospect to physically / emotionally mature I agree exists but “Development” is the ultimate BS red herring - if it existed anyone could convert chicken shit to chicken salad.

Zadina wasn’t a bust because of poor development - he simply doesn’t possess elite hunger to do whatever it takes to be successful & he likely never did

Couldn't disagree more. What you're saying here sounds like pure hindsight. Zadina could've easily been given a different set of mentors and his path could've been entirely different.

 

[rahad]

I have a question.

Let say by some miracle, we end up winning the draft lottery and we draft first overall in the 2025 draft. If Laine become a 35+ goals scorer (80pts+) player.

Do we trade Caufield in 2025 or maybe 2026? Do we let go Laine after his contract?

 

[DAChampion]

I have a question.

Let say by some miracle, we end up winning the draft lottery and we draft first overall in the 2025 draft. If Laine become a 35+ goals scorer (80pts+) player.

Do we trade Caufield in 2025 or maybe 2026? Do we let go Laine after his contract?

If the Habs draft an elite forward in 2025, ... Then yeah it would be a difficult decision for Hughes.

 

[rahad]

If the Habs draft an elite forward in 2025, ... Then yeah it would be a difficult decision for Hughes.

Kent will have a hard decision. At the same, it would be great for us. If Dach keep being a injury prone player. Do you consider trading him also?

 

[Habs Icing]

They’re spending to cap ceiling and have one of the largest scouting & player development staffs what else is there to spend on?

I said it before Stevie Y started his Dead Things gig, there’s no such thing as elite GM - a no tax, team friendly market is the best GM

Kent Hughes may have something to say about that.