HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #85 - Offseason Editon

[Kobe Armstrong]

The point was that you are recreating the past to fit an absurd agenda. A "godly" rebuild situation, lmao. It's a delusional premise. If you feel you were accurate that Armia had no value, then why the f*** are you saying the opposite on the same damn page of this thread ? Which is it ? This is nauseating. I'm not the one making these brutal claims of godly rebuild situations. You asked for a rebuttal, I served you with your own thoughts on the matter.

I said "even Armia had value" when HuGo took over. This statement is either true, like you said when they took over. Or false, like you are saying now. Can't have it both ways. My post from over a year ago doesn't even take a stance on that matter, I said he is a potential buyout candidate that I HOPE bounces back and can return value.

Truth is Hughes was put in a great situation to rebuild for numerous reasons. A 1st overall pick, numerous veterans with inflated value due to the recent cup run, an owner willing to commit to a full rebuild, and solid young players that carried us to the Cup Finals.

That is easily one of the best rebuild situations to take over. Nobody put pressure on them to win games, there was no internal budget, and the fans had a decent amount of good will stemming from a fun playoff run.

Would you care to dispute any of those facts?

 

[The Great Weal]

I wonder how one would describe Adams's situation in Buffalo. You get there and you have an Eichel level player to trade, an incoming 1st overall, Tage Thompson, Dahlin, Cozens, Reinhart. What superlative do you use there ? Because apparently, not having a completely barren team is an ideal situation lol.

Even MB had a great hand to start with. Price, Pacioretty, Plekanec, the best pairing in the NHL in Markov-Subban, a promising rookie in Gallagher, and a 3rd overall pick.

It's hard to properly evaluate HuGo so far. Two years in and we are probably the only team in the league not to have at least one top 10 forward/dman/goalie caliber player in the organization. On one hand, the cap situation limits numerous moves, on the other hand, we are still refusing to take BPA with our picks which is f***ing moronic. Slaf and Reinbacher better work out because if not, boy would that be a disaster.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Even MB had a great hand to start with. Price, Pacioretty, Plekanec, the best pairing in the NHL in Markov-Subban, a promising rookie in Gallagher, and a 3rd overall pick.

It's hard to properly evaluate HuGo so far. Two years in and we are probably the only team in the league not to have at least one top 10 forward/dman/goalie caliber player in the organization. On the one hand, the cap situation limits numerous moves, on the other hand, we are still refusing to take BPA with our picks which is f***ing moronic. Slaf and Reinbacher better work out because if not, boy would that be a disaster.

The most damning thing is that we actually might have a worse roster this year than the past 2 seasons, which Hughes and Gorton certainly did NOT plan for

I wonder how one would describe Adams's situation in Buffalo. You get there and you have an Eichel level player to trade, an incoming 1st overall, Tage Thompson, Dahlin, Cozens, Reinhart. What superlative do you use there ? Because apparently, not having a completely barren team is an ideal situation lol.

That's a wonderful rebuild situation... point being?

 

[The Great Weal]

The most damning thing is that we actually might have a worse roster this year than the past 2 seasons, which Hughes and Gorton certainly did NOT plan for

The team already fell hard at the start of that year with no more Price and Weber and the significant decline in Petry and Gallagher.

They also traded away Toffoli and Lehkonen for futures so of course they did plan on getting worse, that’s what rebuilding teams do.

 

[Andrei79]

Even MB had a great hand to start with. Price, Pacioretty, Plekanec, the best pairing in the NHL in Markov-Subban, a promising rookie in Gallagher, and a 3rd overall pick.

It's hard to properly evaluate HuGo so far. Two years in and we are probably the only team in the league not to have at least one top 10 forward/dman/goalie caliber player in the organization. On the one hand, the cap situation limits numerous moves, on the other hand, we are still refusing to take BPA with our picks which is f***ing moronic. Slaf and Reinbacher better work out because if not, boy would that be a disaster.

This is pretty much the point though. The situation they came in was a run of the mill rebuild situation we see everywhere in the league, hampered with multiple long term contracts worth millions given to bad players. Not one player they inherited was a potential elite player, save Caufield, but Caufield has his warts. MB inherited a situation where he had 2 award winning players, so top 5/top 3 in their positions. I agree with you both on the situation being too early to evaluate and the drafting that's not been confidence inducing. The hot takes though have been too much lately, with little nuance making the board a difficult read.

 

[JRichard]

The most damning thing is that we actually might have a worse roster this year than the past 2 seasons, which Hughes and Gorton certainly did NOT plan for


That's a wonderful rebuild situation... point being?

Same lineup except for Newhook, Ylonen and Pearson? Sophomore jinx for many.
not sure why better results were expected.

some bottom teams (Buf, Ott) are improving and top teams can get worse and still be ahead.
Philly added Couturier and Atkinson who played 0 game last year and 4 youngsters made team. Thats 6 new faces with Gauthier next year and Michkov year after.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

The team already fell hard at the start of that year with no more Price and Weber and the significant decline in Petry and Gallagher.

They also traded away Toffoli and Lehkonen for futures so of course they did plan on getting worse, that’s what rebuilding teams do.

Still. Being 1 full year + removed from introducing a 1st overall draft pick to the team, you hope to be on the upswing and want to win meaningful games as late into the season as possible.

Maybe Slafkovsky shouldn't be treated as a 1st overall pick, but that is a different discussion.

When those trades were made, IDK but I damn sure hope that Hughes thought he would get more impact than he has gotten out of Mesar and Barron

 

[The Great Weal]

Still. Being 1 full year + removed from introducing a 1st overall draft pick to the team, you hope to be on the upswing and want to win meaningful games as late into the season as possible.

Maybe Slafkovsky shouldn't be treated as a 1st overall pick, but that is a different discussion.

When those trades was made, I damn sure hope that Hughes thought he would get more impact than he has gotten out of Mesar and Barron

Not sure how you thought this team would be even somewhat competitive enough to win meaningful games late in the season.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Not sure how you thought this team would be even somewhat competitive enough to win meaningful games late in the season.

That's not what I said. You want to remain in the hunt as long as possible, not crap out in the beginning and stop trying for the last ~65 games

 

[The Great Weal]

That's not what I said. You want to remain in the hunt as long as possible, not crap out in the beginning and stop trying for the last ~65 games

The Habs were still trying last year when they clearly weren't a playoff team. The team just sucks.

 

[JRichard]

That's not what I said. You want to remain in the hunt as long as possible, not crap out in the beginning and stop trying for the last ~65 games

1-1-1 is not crapping. Lack of depth hurts with Dach, even Dvorak out.

The Habs were still trying last year when they clearly weren't a playoff team. The team just sucks.

Many whined they tried too hard.

 

[Andrei79]

I said "even Armia had value" when HuGo took over. This statement is either true, like you said when they took over. Or false, like you are saying now. Can't have it both ways. My post from over a year ago doesn't even take a stance on that matter, I said he is a potential buyout candidate that I HOPE bounces back and can return value.

Truth is Hughes was put in a great situation to rebuild for numerous reasons. A 1st overall pick, numerous veterans with inflated value due to the recent cup run, an owner willing to commit to a full rebuild, and solid young players that carried us to the Cup Finals.

That is easily one of the best rebuild situations to take over. Nobody put pressure on them to win games, there was no internal budget, and the fans had a decent amount of good will stemming from a fun playoff run.

Would you care to dispute any of those facts?

You literally thought he was a buyout candidate the day after Hughes was hired and now claim he had value. Yes, saying he's a buyout candidate is a stance on his value. Your own thoughts on the matter dispute your "facts". I could have said that Armia was worth both McDavid and Draisaitl back then and it wouldn't have changed anything I brought up. I think you usually have solid and rational takes, but what you're actually describing here, your "facts", is nothing special in terms of a rebuild outside of the smallest of markets. It's certainly not a godly situation. And you're completely disregarding the amount of dead cap that was being carried over through brutal contracts, some of which are still on the team two years later due to being almost immovable. The reality is they came into a worst place team that was in complete disarray with the two key players of the cup run being essentially retired and multiple players having career lows, including those young players you mention.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Trade everyone

 

[nhlfan9191]

Even MB had a great hand to start with. Price, Pacioretty, Plekanec, the best pairing in the NHL in Markov-Subban, a promising rookie in Gallagher, and a 3rd overall pick.

It's hard to properly evaluate HuGo so far. Two years in and we are probably the only team in the league not to have at least one top 10 forward/dman/goalie caliber player in the organization. On one hand, the cap situation limits numerous moves, on the other hand, we are still refusing to take BPA with our picks which is f***ing moronic. Slaf and Reinbacher better work out because if not, boy would that be a disaster.

That SCF run was a lot of fun but it came at too high of a price. Guys like Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, etc all should have been sold while they were still worth their weight in gold and the rebuild should’ve been started 5-6 years ago. The way the former regime buried this team in the ground with neglect is ridiculous.

 

[Vachon23]

That SCF run was a lot of fun but it came at too high of a price. Guys like Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, etc all should have been sold while they were still worth their weight in gold and the rebuild should’ve been started 5-6 years ago. The way the former regime buried this team in the ground with neglect is ridiculous.

I have no problem with the price we paid ! That was the best moment I ever had as an Habs fans in my life

 

[River Meadow]

Who would do:

Slafkowsky for Alexis Lafreniere (maybe NY throws in a pick)

 

[Beendair Donedat]

Who would do:

Slafkowsky for Alexis Lafreniere (maybe NY throws in a pick)

Everyone in the Ranger organization and the ultra pure laines, but that’s about it… Laff keeps looking unimpressive. Slafkovaky is 19 years old and still growing into his body.

We really don’t need to go through Drouin 2.0 do we?

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Who would do:

Slafkowsky for Alexis Lafreniere (maybe NY throws in a pick)

My expectation are beyond low with Slaf but against Laf oh hell no , another Drouin

 

[River Meadow]

My expectation are beyond low with Slaf but against Laf oh hell no , another Drouin

I haven't watched Laf, so that is a good call then..

 

[ReHabs]

We had the worst cap situation in the league which almost handcuffed HuGo entirely. I'm very skeptical about the drafting, but I don't see anything they've done that is a complete disaster.

Our cap situation didn’t matter. Price and Weber on LTIR, the firesale at the first trade deadline. We didn’t have cap issues — we had nothing to spend it on in the first place.

 

[HuGort]

MB left anything more than a dead last in the league roster.

Next?

That roster went to cup finals year before.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

You literally thought he was a buyout candidate the day after Hughes was hired and now claim he had value. Yes, saying he's a buyout candidate is a stance on his value. Your own thoughts on the matter dispute your "facts". I could have said that Armia was worth both McDavid and Draisaitl back then and it wouldn't have changed anything I brought up. I think you usually have solid and rational takes, but what you're actually describing here, your "facts", is nothing special in terms of a rebuild outside of the smallest of markets. It's certainly not a godly situation. And you're completely disregarding the amount of dead cap that was being carried over through brutal contracts, some of which are still on the team two years later due to being almost immovable. The reality is they came into a worst place team that was in complete disarray with the two key players of the cup run being essentially retired and multiple players having career lows, including those young players you mention.

You're still reaching and misquoting me. I said "Armia is a potential buyout candidate but we should be able to get value for him if we wait it out". You said, "Armia has legitimate value". Maybe the truth is somewhere in between, but my analysis of the situation looks a whole lot better than yours. Acting like that disproves my entire post is lame and completely disingenuous.

My main issue is that this looks like another lost season. Everyone is saying, well you should've expected to have another lost season. I'm saying, I don't think even Hughes and Gorton envisioned things going this poorly. Most of their moves flopping or getting injured. Clearly we are not as far along into the rebuild as we hoped. This shouldn't be controversial.

Arguably, we got nothing out of the past 2 years of tanking. Slaf and Reinbacher look like role players, not difference makers. Hopefully I am wrong because I like the players and we need them to succeed, but if they don't hit as legitimate core pieces we have wasted 2 years of the rebuild with no prospects of improving past the bottom.

 

[ReHabs]

You're still reaching and misquoting me. I said "Armia is a potential buyout candidate but we should be able to get value for him if we wait it out". You said, "Armia has legitimate value". Maybe the truth is somewhere in between, but my analysis of the situation looks a whole lot better than yours. Acting like that disproves my entire post is lame and completely disingenuous.

My main issue is that this looks like another lost season. Everyone is saying, well you should've expected to have another lost season. I'm saying, I don't think even Hughes and Gorton envisioned things going this poorly. Most of their moves flopping or getting injured. Clearly we are not as far along into the rebuild as we hoped. This shouldn't be controversial.

Arguably, we got nothing out of the past 2 years of tanking. Slaf and Reinbacher look like role players, not difference makers. Hopefully I am wrong because I like the players and we need them to succeed, but if they don't hit as legitimate core pieces we have wasted 2 years of the rebuild with no prospects of improving past the bottom.

Newhook looks fine so far but it's true that HuGo didn't plan on this being a lost season -- they were flirting with the p (playoffs) word over summer.

I was saying earlier that a totally tepid season would be a very bad sign that our youth (and hopefully core) players hadn't developed to a sufficient degree. Three off-kilter, bad rhythm games doesn't mean much but we can revisit their growth at gp10 and gp20 and see what the trend looks like. As an aside: availability is a quality and if Guhle and Dach are going to be constantly injured we cannot consider them as core players, they should be removed from the Do Not Trade list.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I guess the 'Fans can't handle a rebuild' stuff was actually true.. because the minute we are in one, people want to be out of it and have 0 understanding of how long it takes to get out of one.

It's been 1.5 years, if you think that we'd be out and contending after 1.5 years of a rebuild.. you've had the wrong expectations of what rebuilds look like.

 

[morhilane]

I guess the 'Fans can't handle a rebuild' stuff was actually true.. because the minute we are in one, people want to be out of it and have 0 understanding of how long it takes to get out of one.

It's been 1.5 years, if you think that we'd be out and contending after 1.5 years of a rebuild.. you've had the wrong expectations of what rebuilds look like.

You'll see many claim the rebuild started in 2018 as a excuse for their impatience.

I always said: a rebuild is as long as it takes to get a #1D and a starter goalie...