Blue Jays Discussion: Trade deadline: Aug 31 (no, not that one. The other one. The waiver one)

[theaub]

Russell Martin has more career plate appearances/at-bats than Tulowitzki

 

[KarmaPolice]

Russell Martin has more career plate appearances/at-bats than Tulowitzki

At clean-up spot? I don't think so. If Tulo wasn't hitting 3 or 4 spot for Colorado, then he was 1 or 2. In other words, he has a lot more experience hitting in the top of the order than Martin. Only makes logical sense to put him ahead of him.

Tulo also has more RBIs than Martin in fewer ABs. More reason to put him in the cleanup spot. No matter how you look at it, it makes more sense to put Tulo in that spot.

 

[King Mapes]

It's only logical to complain about. Don't you want your hitter with more experience batting clean-up to hit in that spot? In fact, the game last night came down that: Martin at the plate, bases loaded, 2 out. He flys out. Wouldn't you rather have a more experienced hitter in this situation in Tulo batting instead of Martin? Baseball is a game of inches and very small adjustments. Like who's batting 4 or 5. That's why some people can understand why Gibbons is a bad manager (relatively speaking) while others don't seem to. I'll refrain from replying in-depth from your childish scream in your next reply that's in reference to my post (read: The 'all Gibbons fault', which I never even said, so acting chlidish AND putting words in my mouth. Nice.). Except to say I don't think that's how any self-respecting adult should act when debating. I don't see what such a post serves. What is the purpose for a post like that? I'm asking you a direct question. How long have you been a moderator, by the way? Just curious.

A year and a half. Thing is, since you seem to ignore it, they are both hitting well. If one was struggling sure. I see your argument. But you're complaining for the sake of complaining just because Martin didn't come through in one particular AB. Tulo also used to be a better hitter. Hell Bautista has more experience in the 3 spot than EE but I'd rather Edwin there when JB comes back. EE-Martin-Tulo is the one part of the lineup producing. Why don't we complain about other things like, I duno, OF depth? But if Gibbons can't be blamed, why complain about it right?

 

[King Mapes]

At clean-up spot? I don't think so. If Tulo wasn't hitting 3 or 4 spot for Colorado, then he was 1 or 2. In other words, he has a lot more experience hitting in the top of the order than Martin. Only makes logical sense to put him ahead of him.

Tulo also has more RBIs than Martin in fewer ABs. More reason to put him in the cleanup spot. No matter how you look at it, it makes more sense to put Tulo in that spot.

You're under the impression Martin is struggling in the cleanup spot. He is not. Martin was put there to get him going a bit and he's hitting 325 there, why change that?

 

[lebdafor norris]

It's only logical to complain about. Don't you want your hitter with more experience batting clean-up to hit in that spot? In fact, the game last night came down that: Martin at the plate, bases loaded, 2 out. He flys out. Wouldn't you rather have a more experienced hitter in this situation in Tulo batting instead of Martin? Baseball is a game of inches and very small adjustments. Like who's batting 4 or 5. That's why some people can understand why Gibbons is a bad manager (relatively speaking) while others don't seem to. I'll refrain from replying in-depth from your childish scream in your next reply that's in reference to my post (read: The 'all Gibbons fault', which I never even said, so acting chlidish AND putting words in my mouth. Nice.). Except to say I don't think that's how any self-respecting adult should act when debating. I don't see what such a post serves. What is the purpose for a post like that? I'm asking you a direct question. How long have you been a moderator, by the way? Just curious.

To be fair, I believe Martin actually lined out and made pretty solid contact with the ball yesterday in the 9th inning, it was just very unfortunate that the ball was hit next to the Indians outfielder.

 

[Mach85]

At clean-up spot? I don't think so. If Tulo wasn't hitting 3 or 4 spot for Colorado, then he was 1 or 2. In other words, he has a lot more experience hitting in the top of the order than Martin. Only makes logical sense to put him ahead of him.

Tulo also has more RBIs than Martin in fewer ABs. More reason to put him in the cleanup spot. No matter how you look at it, it makes more sense to put Tulo in that spot.

By your own admission Tulo has spent most of his career batting cleanup or close to it. Is it a surprise he has more RBIs than Martin when he's had that many more opportunities? RBIs are a stat of opportunity, not so much skill. Look at Freddie Freeman's stats with the Braves this year.

 

[Eyedea]

Yeah Martin lined out to the RFer. That's one of the more unluckier situations he could have had.

 

[TF97]

Can't wait to find out how the whole EE situation is Thole's fault

 

[Mach85]

Can't wait to find out how the whole EE situation is Thole's fault

Smoak's fault for striking out with the woman first before EE came through with the home run.

 

[KarmaPolice]

A year and a half. Thing is, since you seem to ignore it, they are both hitting well. If one was struggling sure. I see your argument. But you're complaining for the sake of complaining just because Martin didn't come through in one particular AB. Tulo also used to be a better hitter. Hell Bautista has more experience in the 3 spot than EE but I'd rather Edwin there when JB comes back. EE-Martin-Tulo is the one part of the lineup producing. Why don't we complain about other things like, I duno, OF depth? But if Gibbons can't be blamed, why complain about it right?

You're under the impression Martin is struggling in the cleanup spot. He is not. Martin was put there to get him going a bit and he's hitting 325 there, why change that?

@ your


Why would you facepalm the fact that one player has more RBIs over his career in fewer at bats? Tulo clearly has shown throughout his career that he can bring in base runners better than Martin can. Only seems logical to me that you put the player with the better career success in such a position in that spot. I'm clearly not complaining just to complain when I have the numbers on my side. Tulo's career slugging percentage is 100 points higher than Martin's (.505 to .405). It's like night and day. Tulo is clearly the better power hitter, and that's what you want in your clean-up spot. I know that BOTH hitters are hitting well lately, so no, I'm not under the impression that Martin is struggling. Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I simply think it would be optimal to switch them. Put Tulo in #4 and Martin in #5. I hardly doubt it's going to send them both into a slump. These guys are professionals with hundreds and hundreds of ABs under their belt. Tulo is the better guy to put in the cleanup spot, and the numbers back it up.

You also didn't answer my direct question of what your post of "It's all Gibbon's fault!" serves.

 

[KarmaPolice]

By your own admission Tulo has spent most of his career batting cleanup or close to it. Is it a surprise he has more RBIs than Martin when he's had that many more opportunities? RBIs are a stat of opportunity, not so much skill. Look at Freddie Freeman's stats with the Braves this year.

If a guy is better at cleanup, isn't he going to be put in that position and get more RBIs? So yeah, it makes sense then. You answered your own question. And their career slugging percentages are night and day. Tulo should absolutely be in that #4 spot ahead of Martin.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Come on, TB!

 

[Mach85]

If a guy is better at cleanup, isn't he going to be put in that position and get more RBIs? So yeah, it makes sense then. You answered your own question. And their career slugging percentages are night and day. Tulo should absolutely be in that #4 spot ahead of Martin.

Right, because he's had more opportunities. But you can't say "Tulo has more RBIs over his career and thus should be higher up in the order than Martin" which is what you said. Using that logic, Freddie Freeman should be nowhere near a cleanup spot. RBIs are all about the opportunities you have to drive in runs. If you're going to argue that Tulo should be ahead of Martin, you need to use other stats.

For instance, as Discoverer posted, Tulo and Martin have an identical wRC+ since June. So flip-flopping them wouldn't make any difference at all, except having the opportunity to have a different outcome in hindsight from the single out Martin made to end last game. The timing you're bringing this up makes it seem like that's what has motivated this discussion.

 

[theaub]

Also what does Tulowitzki's slugging percentage have to do with needing a single in the 9th inning of a one run game (and fwiw, Martin is a better career hitter in high leverage situations).

Its especially weird to complain about that specifically when Martin's hit 6 HR in the last 7 games...

 

[KarmaPolice]

Right, because he's had more opportunities. But you can't say "Tulo has more RBIs over his career and thus should be higher up in the order than Martin" which is what you said. Using that logic, Freddie Freeman should be nowhere near a cleanup spot. RBIs are all about the opportunities you have to drive in runs. If you're going to argue that Tulo should be ahead of Martin, you need to use other stats.

For instance, as Discoverer posted, Tulo and Martin have an identical wRC+ since June. So flip-flopping them wouldn't make any difference at all, except having the opportunity to have a different outcome in hindsight from the single out Martin made to end last game. The timing you're bringing this up makes it seem like that's what has motivated this discussion.

Also what does Tulowitzki's slugging percentage have to do with needing a single in the 9th inning of a one run game (and fwiw, Martin is a better career hitter in high leverage situations).

Its especially weird to complain about that specifically when Martin's hit 6 HR in the last 7 games...

"Sluggers" are known to be clean-up hitters. That's a pretty simple part of knowing the game of baseball. If a player has a higher slugging percentage, it means he's a harder hitter than the players with lower percentages. And think of it: Who is usually batting in the cleanup position. It's your hardest hitter, that's who (aside from EE and JD, who arguably could've been put in that position -- well, at least EE, as JD has been #2 almost all season). In last night's lineup, if it wasn't going to be EE hitting cleanup, then Tulo made the most sense. End of story. His career slugging percentage DESTROYS Martin's. Obliterates it.

Hell, Tulo even has a higher hitting percentage right now, after a terrible start. Seems like a simple decision to me to put Tulo #4 and Martin #5. I think it might've cost us the game. Frankly, I have more faith in Tulo with the game on the line than Martin. Tulo's been in those key positions more in his career than Martin has. He was basically THE MAN in Colorado for many years. It's an easy decision.

 

[Mach85]

"Sluggers" are known to be clean-up hitters. That's a pretty simple part of knowing the game of baseball. If a player has a higher slugging percentage, it means he's a harder hitter than the players with lower percentages. And think of it: Who is usually batting in the cleanup position. It's your hardest hitter, that's who (aside from EE and JD, who arguably could've been put in that position -- well, at least EE, as JD has been #2 almost all season). In last night's lineup, if it wasn't going to be EE hitting cleanup, then Tulo made the most sense. End of story. His career slugging percentage DESTROYS Martin's. Obliterates it.

Hell, Tulo even has a higher hitting percentage right now, after a terrible start. Seems like a simple decision to me to put Tulo #4 and Martin #5. I think it might've cost us the game. Frankly, I have more faith in Tulo with the game on the line than Martin. Tulo's been in those key positions more in his career than Martin has. He was basically THE MAN in Colorado for many years. It's an easy decision.

Actually, Martin has been better in his career than Tulo in high leverage situations. Look up the stat called WPA and compare them.

 

[habamillions]

Ill take tulo and martin in clutch situations over anyone else on the team. they just bring it to another gear. People who complain about Martin in the 9th last night just doesnt get baseball. He had a great atbat. Just good managing having the fielder in the right spot

 

[theaub]

"Sluggers" are known to be clean-up hitters. That's a pretty simple part of knowing the game of baseball. If a player has a higher slugging percentage, it means he's a harder hitter than the players with lower percentages. And think of it: Who is usually batting in the cleanup position. It's your hardest hitter, that's who (aside from EE and JD, who arguably could've been put in that position -- well, at least EE, as JD has been #2 almost all season). In last night's lineup, if it wasn't going to be EE hitting cleanup, then Tulo made the most sense. End of story. His career slugging percentage DESTROYS Martin's. Obliterates it.

I read the first three sentences of this in PFTCommenter's e-voice and I can't go back.

 

[Amadeus]

Courtesy of sportsnet, amidst the recent firings, Sal Fasano, also has been let go.

 

[Eyedea]

"Sluggers" are known to be clean-up hitters. That's a pretty simple part of knowing the game of baseball. If a player has a higher slugging percentage, it means he's a harder hitter than the players with lower percentages. And think of it: Who is usually batting in the cleanup position. It's your hardest hitter, that's who (aside from EE and JD, who arguably could've been put in that position -- well, at least EE, as JD has been #2 almost all season). In last night's lineup, if it wasn't going to be EE hitting cleanup, then Tulo made the most sense. End of story. His career slugging percentage DESTROYS Martin's. Obliterates it.

Hell, Tulo even has a higher hitting percentage right now, after a terrible start. Seems like a simple decision to me to put Tulo #4 and Martin #5. I think it might've cost us the game. Frankly, I have more faith in Tulo with the game on the line than Martin. Tulo's been in those key positions more in his career than Martin has. He was basically THE MAN in Colorado for many years. It's an easy decision.

Yes, Tulo had a bad start, and Martin did as well.

Last 30 days:

Player A: .293/.411/.640
Player B: .295/.364/.513

Player A hit 4th yesterday, Player B hit 5th.

Also Tulo's power hitting numbers and runs driven in is irrelevant when you compare the fact that he played half of his games in Denver. Look at the entire Rockies lineup and you'll see they haven't had a problem scoring runs without him.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Yes, Tulo had a bad start, and Martin did as well.

Last 30 days:

Player A: .293/.411/.640
Player B: .295/.364/.513

Player A hit 4th yesterday, Player B hit 5th.

Also Tulo's power hitting numbers and runs driven in is irrelevant when you compare the fact that he played half of his games in Denver. Look at the entire Rockies lineup and you'll see they haven't had a problem scoring runs without him.

Why are we arguing about this? They are both good players that play for our team. I like them both.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Drew Storen (Mariners) is on the 15 day DL with shoulder inflammation.

Re: EE. People get STDs everyday. Except when you are famous, you get sued for it.

 

[Scrub*]

Martin or Tulo cleanup is temporary until Bautista and Pillar are back. When Jose is back Edwin bats cleanup and then look who your 5/6/7 hitters are. Saunders bats higher to mix in a left handed bat sometimes , against lefties figure out how to get Upton in there.

 

[Suntouchable13]

The next 6 games if we don't go 5-1, I will be disappointed.

 

[dredeye]

Courtesy of sportsnet, amidst the recent firings, Sal Fasano, also has been let go.

Really? This one is very surprising. I always saw Fasano as a future manager.