Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 - Post Deadline

[Torontonian]

Why deslauriers over Clifford or simmonds really at this point. Sure he could be better. But how much?

Also if sandin wants out….. then trade him. He is a good chip. Maybe now chych run is a possibility?

Get a good young forward for him?

If Sandin is going to be traded, I've been saying he's the piece along with draft picks to acquire a top 6 forward for that 2nd line, there has been a hole there and we have been using cheap options and hoping that player can be useful.

 

[Buds17]

If Washington can make the playoffs with Vanacek and Samsonov, why can't the leafs with some b/c tier goalies.

Accumulate cap space, and make moves at the TDL.

conservative and 23 man roster and accumulate cap space - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

It has to be about more than just making the playoffs with this team at this point. Washington was also a first round exit that ultimately didn't upgrade their goaltending at the trade deadline.

 

[Gabriel426]

The team defense has been quite good the past few seasons.

Is this take from 2018?

Are they good enough to make a Zamboni driver playing in goal look good?

The point of my post is the Leafs team defence is not good enough to the point where they can make a 2nd or even 3rd string goalie looks good in a regular basis. Don’t just read one sentence instead of the entire post.

 

[LeafChief]

Are they good enough to make a Zamboni driver playing in goal look good?

The point of my post is the Leafs team defence is not good enough to the point where they can make a 2nd or even 3rd string goalie looks good in a regular basis. Don’t just read one sentence instead of the entire post.

Are you suggesting the Leafs lost to David Ayres because they're defense wasn;t good enough?

If you're basis of what is good defending is whether or not a team can defend in a one-in-every 3-5 season situation, that seems pretty ridiculous.

I read your entire post and all of it lacked substance.

 

[Gabriel426]

The core isn't the problem, its the supporting cast he's gotten wrong the past few years. Losing Spezza to sign Sam Gagner is the exact opposite move he needs to make on the 3rd and 4th line.

Are the core bad players, the answer is no. Can they win together, so far the answer is no too.
I think the Leafs could have better depth but depth players are complementary pieces, the fact that the core couldn’t get it done for the past few years in a row and the fact that their play were at a level lower than their regular season level is a legitimate concern.
DD was a core piece and probably the biggest piece for the Raptors, he was gone the moment Masai saw a chance to get a better player. Jonas was also a core piece and he was traded for a package of players that fitted the team better.
Beside pulling off the Kawhi trade, Masai did all the tinkering around DD, Kyle and Jonas and the results were the same. Sometime the core might just not be good enough compare to other contenders.
What if MM can get you Helly? A top 5 wingers in the league for a top 5 goalies in the league, that would be a good hockey trade, don’t you think?
I agree about the Gagner signing bc it is such a backward move.

 

[Brobust]

Are they good enough to make a Zamboni driver playing in goal look good?

The point of my post is the Leafs team defence is not good enough to the point where they can make a 2nd or even 3rd string goalie looks good in a regular basis. Don’t just read one sentence instead of the entire post.

Sorry, but what does team defence have to do with not being able to score against David Ayres?

By the way, the Ayres game exposed Toronto's biggest flaw and the reason they've never had playoff success and Dubas has never bothered to fix it. If the other team is desperate to not let the leafs score, the leafs will not score. Guess what every game 7, every elimination game, turns into. It just has nothing to do with defence.

 

[Gabriel426]

Are you suggesting the Leafs lost to David Ayres because they're defense wasn;t good enough?

If you're basis of what is good defending is whether or not a team can defend in a one-in-every 3-5 season situation, that seems pretty ridiculous.

I read your entire post and all of it lacked substance.

From this comment, it showed you misunderstood my post from the start.

My point was the Leafs defence is not good enough to protect and win consistently with a Zamboni driver as their goalie. That’s why they should really not be looking at 2nd or 3rd string goalies thinking they could be their starter.

Sorry, but what does team defence have to do with not being able to score against David Ayres?

By the way, the Ayres game exposed Toronto's biggest flaw and the reason they've never had playoff success and Dubas has never bothered to fix it. If the other team is desperate to not let the leafs score, the leafs will not score. Guess what every game 7, every elimination game, turns into. It just has nothing to do with defence.

You misunderstood what I was saying, pls see my other post.

 

[Brobust]

It has to be about more than just making the playoffs with this team at this point. Washington was also a first round exit that ultimately didn't upgrade their goaltending at the trade deadline.

They didn't upgrade, because they didn't have assets and they're just not that good to be worth the investment.

With the picks and prospects added and the accumulated cap space, Toronto can make moves similar to what Tampa did last TDL. They can go all in without wiping out their prospect depth.

 

[LeafChief]

From this comment, it showed you misunderstood my post from the start.

My point was the Leafs defence is not good enough to protect and win consistently with a Zamboni driver as their goalie. That’s why they should really not be looking at 2nd or 3rd string goalies thinking they could be their starter.

The Leafs have had consistently strong defence for the past two seasons (basically since they added Brodie). This most recent season, the goaltending was most definitely an issue.

You are placing the qualification of 'can they defend in front of David Ayres' as the basis of whether or not they are good defensively. I don't think it's my responsibility to explain to you how absolutely stupid of a 'metric' that is to base your thinking off of.

The Leafs have been notoriously weak on defense for pretty much a decade plus. That hasn't been the case the past two seasons (a pretty decent sample size). We're moving away from that but simple minded folk can't get away from that narrative.

I understand feeling spurned by this team (I feel it too). The qualification you are placing on what it means to be good defensively is mindless.

 

[Brobust]

From this comment, it showed you misunderstood my post from the start.

My point was the Leafs defence is not good enough to protect and win consistently with a Zamboni driver as their goalie. That’s why they should really not be looking at 2nd or 3rd string goalies thinking they could be their starter.


You misunderstood what I was saying, pls see my other post.

I still disagree. When the goalie gives up 2 and the leafs vaunted offence scores 1 or gets shutout, it's not on the defence or the goalie. Expecting any goalie to win 1-0 is ridiculous.

 

[Gabriel426]

The Leafs have had consistently strong defence for the past two seasons (basically since they added Brodie).

You are placing the qualification of 'can they defend in front of David Ayres' as the basis of whether or not they are good defensively. I don't think it's my responsibility to explain to you how absolutely stupid of a 'metric' that is to base your thinking off of.

The Leafs have been notoriously weak on defense for pretty much a decade plus. That hasn't been the case the past two seasons (a pretty decent sample size). We're moving away from that but simple minded folk can't get away from that narrative.

I understand feeling spurned by this team (I feel it too). The qualification you are placing on what it means to be good defensively is mindless.

Which part of my posts stated the Leafs defence is not good?
Pls show me. All I stated was Leafs defence is not good enough to make a Zamboni driver look good.
My point was about Leafs should not be looking at 2nd and 3rd string goalies as their starter bc their defence is not strong enough to make them look like legitimate starters.

 

[Gabriel426]

I still disagree. When the goalie gives up 2 and the leafs vaunted offence scores 1 or gets shutout, it's not on the defence or the goalie. Expecting any goalie to win 1-0 is ridiculous.

I don’t think we lost Game 7 bc Campbell or the defence didn’t play well. To me it is a 3 goals game, if the team give up 3 goals(excluding Empty Net) or more , team defence and goalie should be question but if it is less, then it is the offense.

Overall, would Leafs be better off with Gibson or Helly in net? In my opinion, they would but some might differ. However, I know if the current Murray or some other 2nd or 3rd string goalies were playing for the Leafs, don’t think the Leafs could play TB till Game 7. That’s pretty much my point.

 

[Legion34]

Sorry, but what does team defence have to do with not being able to score against David Ayres?

By the way, the Ayres game exposed Toronto's biggest flaw and the reason they've never had playoff success and Dubas has never bothered to fix it. If the other team is desperate to not let the leafs score, the leafs will not score. Guess what every game 7, every elimination game, turns into. It just has nothing to do with defence.

Ummmmm have we not got to the point that we can finally accept that teams don’t try against bugs?

I mean come. On. It has happened 3 times in the last 4 years.

Scott foster didn’t let in a goal.
Ayres let in his first 2 shots. The leafs patted his pads on the way out and stopped.

A guy with ONE EYE let in one goal against Dallas off a deflection. Dallas had like 3 shots and 1 wasn’t even on net.
I guess rebuilding Anaheim with no D could
Just shut down Robertson heiskanen et al.

I mean sure. Believe what you want about the leafs. But The idea that people believe that Chicago and anahei could play shut down d and 40 year old accountants and one eyed goalies can wear other peoples equipment and stop.

Laine. Ehlers. Wheeler schiefle. Buff. Robertson Pavel ski. Seguin etc is just sad

 

[Stephen]

The Leafs have had consistently strong defence for the past two seasons (basically since they added Brodie). This most recent season, the goaltending was most definitely an issue.

You are placing the qualification of 'can they defend in front of David Ayres' as the basis of whether or not they are good defensively. I don't think it's my responsibility to explain to you how absolutely stupid of a 'metric' that is to base your thinking off of.

The Leafs have been notoriously weak on defense for pretty much a decade plus. That hasn't been the case the past two seasons (a pretty decent sample size). We're moving away from that but simple minded folk can't get away from that narrative.

I understand feeling spurned by this team (I feel it too). The qualification you are placing on what it means to be good defensively is mindless.

I think the perception of the Leafs defense being weak is based on the relative quality at the top.

First, as good as Rielly is, as our number one, he isn't quite the equivalent level of our best forward players. If we had a Hedman do all equivalent, that changes the feel of the blueline and the perceived balance of the team because you'd be more free to play him with weaker partners and not lose any sleep over it.

Second, I don't think we have a clear cut number 2, but Muzzin and Brodie have filled in as good number 3's, especially with the decline of Muzzin.

 

[Buds17]

They didn't upgrade, because they didn't have assets and they're just not that good to be worth the investment.

With the picks and prospects added and the accumulated cap space, Toronto can make moves similar to what Tampa did last TDL. They can go all in without wiping out their prospect depth.

The aim should definitely be to emulate Tampa then, and not Washington. Goaltending is the one position I would hesitate to leave to chance though and Tampa certainly didn't have to worry about adding there.

 

[Stephen]

I don’t think we lost Game 7 bc Campbell or the defence didn’t play well. To me it is a 3 goals game, if the team give up 3 goals(excluding Empty Net) or more , team defence and goalie should be question but if it is less, then it is the offense.

Overall, would Leafs be better off with Gibson or Helly in net? In my opinion, they would but some might differ. However, I know if the current Murray or some other 2nd or 3rd string goalies were playing for the Leafs, don’t think the Leafs could play TB till Game 7. That’s pretty much my point.

Campbell gave us a reasonable opportunity to win in both the Tampa and Montreal series, but if the offense is being shut down, playing Vasilevskiy and Price back to back in Game 6 and 7's isn't going to make any goalie look good. It's like the Lalime effect playing vs Belfour and Brodeur.

 

[LeafChief]

Which part of my posts stated the Leafs defence is not good?
Pls show me. All I stated was Leafs defence is not good enough to make a Zamboni driver look good.
My point was about Leafs should not be looking at 2nd and 3rd string goalies as their starter bc their defence is not strong enough to make them look like legitimate starters.

I think your confusion comes from the report where it was stated the Leafs are looking for a goalie with low AAV. That doesn't equate to 2nd or 3rd string goalies every time.

Campbell was within that AAV for the past two seasons and the Leafs didn't lose to Montreal or Tampa because of Campbell. They're looking for someone like Campbell (or better) at a similar cap hit. Columbus beat us with Merzlinkins and Korpisalo who both had low AAVs (and both played incredibly well).

That's what the Leafs will be looking for (allegedly). It doesn't mean they're locked into that. It was just a report. They're not going to go grab two 3rd string goalies and hope for the best.

 

[Gabriel426]

Campbell gave us a reasonable opportunity to win in both the Tampa and Montreal series, but if the offense is being shut down, playing Vasilevskiy and Price back to back in Game 6 and 7's isn't going to make any goalie look good. It's like the Lalime effect playing vs Belfour and Brodeur.

What about Game 2 and 4 against TB? Would Gibson or Helly performed better?
Like I said, Campbell and the D were not reason for the lost in Game 7 and but would someone like Gibson or Helly give the Leafs a better chance for the series? That’s debatable but most definitely, I don’t think Leafs would had done as well if Murray or some other 2nd and 3rd string goalies were playing for them.

 

[Stephen]

The aim should definitely be to emulate Tampa then, and not Washington. Goaltending is the one position I would hesitate to leave to chance though and Tampa certainly didn't have to worry about adding there.

Vasi and Hedman are big franchise pillars you can't readily emulate overnight, but there are a number of things Tampa does better around the fringes that Toronto could incorporate into their roster construction if they want to take inspiration and transform into that playstyle.

First, is a commitment to bigger body defensemen. I'm not talking about carelessly throwing fridges onto the roster but if you're consciously game planning for a grinding playoff game and winning 1-0, 2-1, 3-2, you'll need guys who can protect the slot in a efficient way and also block shots and eat up forechecking pressure. Yes, you want to play with the puck, but how do you weather the storm when you don't have it the 40% of the time in a hockey game?

Second, when you want cup winning and playoff experience, just get guys who seem to consistently be on playoff winning teams when they're available and not birth certificates. Corey Perry is the big object lesson here, but just start mining the bottom 6 of recent winners to fill those roles.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Are they good enough to make a Zamboni driver playing in goal look good?

Ayres didn't look good. He allowed 2 goals on 10 shots through less than half a game. And Carolina's 3rd period was largely a display of relentless offensive attack that didn't allow us time in the offensive zone.

 

[Brobust]

The aim should definitely be to emulate Tampa then, and not Washington. Goaltending is the one position I would hesitate to leave to chance though and Tampa certainly didn't have to worry about adding there.

But goaltending is one area where they can't emulate Tampa.

At best, in this scenario, I think by the TDL should be able to pull of their version of the Kuemper trade and probably add 1 or 2 forwards.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think your confusion comes from the report where it was stated the Leafs are looking for a goalie with low AAV. That doesn't equate to 2nd or 3rd string goalies every time.

Campbell was within that AAV for the past two seasons and the Leafs didn't lose to Montreal or Tampa because of Campbell. They're looking for someone like Campbell (or better) at a similar cap hit. Columbus beat us with Merzlinkins and Korpisalo who both had low AAVs (and both played incredibly well).

That's what the Leafs will be looking for (allegedly). It doesn't mean they're locked into that. It was just a report. They're not going to go grab two 3rd string goalies and hope for the best.

I certainly hope they don’t grab two 3rd string goalies and run with them.

The thing is I know goalie is voodoo but I would still rather they go and grab a legitimate goalie than hope they find bargain and find a Bunting version of goalie.

 

[Stephen]

What about Game 2 and 4 against TB? Would Gibson or Helly performed better?
Like I said, Campbell and the D were not reason for the lost in Game 7 and but would someone like Gibson or Helly give the Leafs a better chance for the series? That’s debatable but most definitely, I don’t think Leafs would had done as well if Murray or some other 2nd and 3rd string goalies were playing for them.

I would support a bigger goalie upgrade for 2022-23, because playing Campbell $5 million instead of $1.6 million means we get $3.4 million worse somewhere else. So why not get a goalie who has a more proven track record and big game performance. But I didn't have a problem with Campbell in that series other than the fact that he wasn't likely to outduel Price or Vasi if there's no offense.

 

[ToneDog]

I would support a bigger goalie upgrade for 2022-23, because playing Campbell $5 million instead of $1.6 million means we get $3.4 million worse somewhere else. So why not get a goalie who has a more proven track record and big game performance. But I didn't have a problem with Campbell in that series other than the fact that he wasn't likely to outduel Price or Vasi if there's no offense.

If I'm paying my goalie 1.65m and he goes up against a 9.5m goalie I expect their goalie to be better. If I pay 4 forwards half the cap, I expect them to be the difference. Not my 1.65m goalie. If 16,34,88 and 91 did their jobs and scored 2 more lousy goals, they would have won. The truth is they have not been able to do it for the last 3 years.

 

[ToneDog]

I certainly hope they don’t grab two 3rd string goalies and run with them.

The thing is I know goalie is voodoo but I would still rather they go and grab a legitimate goalie than hope they find bargain and find a Bunting version of goalie.

I don't think he'd be dumb enough to go with 2 3rd stringers. He's gonna find a decent #1G with a decent AAV. Someone like Blackwood IMO. He can then keep Mrazek as his backup if he can't find a suitable taker IMO.