GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 PART IX

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Yall dramatic af

Go watch some other teams play. Every Contender has holes.

If Campbell plays his career a good .920 sv% we will be fine

This like saying yall dramatic af if hoglund score 50 goals we'll be fine. how people like post like this i dont know. burner accounts must be i think

campbell give .92 to read on paper, but he never actually play at .92. understand this to see problem.
 
You’re not going to get a goalie at the top of their game because they won’t be available. You need to target guys who are struggling enough to be available, but good enough that you believe they can find their game.

Gibson to me has all the fundamental qualities you want in a goalie, and in the right situation he can easily be a 0.920. He is also still relatively young with some playoff success as well, and is signed long term to a reasonable cap hit.

So you're willing to give up a star F that drives our 2nd line for a struggling goalie you hope (believe) bounces back & a UFA #3/4 defenseman?

Nope.
 
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People are aware Gibson hasn't been that good in a few years right?
You won't find a high end goalie at the top of their game available.
Everything is a risk when making a move, if he could be obtained it would seem to me to be a player worth inquiring on.
'Hasn't been that good' is still an improvement
 
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This like saying yall dramatic af if hoglund score 50 goals we'll be fine. how people like post like this i dont know. burner accounts must be i think

campbell give .92 to read on paper, but he never actually play at .92. understand this to see problem.
When parody accounts have to break character to spit facts you know there's major concerns to address.
 
You’re not going to get a goalie at the top of their game because they won’t be available. You need to target guys who are struggling enough to be available, but good enough that you believe they can find their game.

Gibson to me has all the fundamental qualities you want in a goalie, and in the right situation he can easily be a 0.920. He is also still relatively young with some playoff success as well, and is signed long term to a reasonable cap hit.

So Gudbranson and Zadorov made Markstrom?

Nothing to do with Sutter coaching, right?

upload_2022-3-3_12-17-24.png
 
More like a #2/3 D that you’ve negotiated an extension with and a, relative, cap dump in Mrazek.

I mean, it's been a while since Lindholm was that 2/3 defenseman you're talking about. At this point he's been declining for years, and id consider him much closer to a #4 than a #2. Not to say I don't like him, I just think you're hoping for a bounce back on a better team.

Screen-Shot-2022-03-01-at-12.05.09-PM.png


There's 0 conversation that a Lindholm & Gibson package equates to Nylander. Two guys that are past their prime for a star F signed for multiple years makes 0 sense.
 
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Sorry Ulf, I’m confused by your point

Unless you meant to quote on of the posts I had quoted

Markstrom wasn't at the top of his game when the Flames acquired him, and then he wasn't at the top of his game his first year with the Flames.

Major difference this year is Sutter and two bottom pair defenders.

Maybe Gibson could be the Leafs Markstrom?

But of course they wouldn't have a Sutter system.
 
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You won't find a high end goalie at the top of their game available.
Everything is a risk when making a move, if he could be obtained it would seem to me to be a player worth inquiring on.
'Hasn't been that good' is still an improvement
At the expense of Nylander, a first and more? That's way too much for a ufa dman we willl have a hard time extending and a goalie we hope bounces back after 3 seasons now of mediocre play in a row.
 
What seperates great goalies from the good to average to sub average ones is the ability of making high danger saves regularly, and obviously making routine saves.

Shesterkin isn't the best goaltender in the league right now because the Rangers are the best defensively.

Rangers are actually one of the worst in the league defensively.

They get good production out of their back end, but that is about it.

They are a defense that needs two quality additions if they want any chance of keeping up against the high caliber offenses in the East.

Or they can continue counting on Shestyerkin bailing them out night after night, but that won't happen in the playoffs. They will hit a wall eventually.
 
At the expense of Nylander, a first and more? That's way too much for a ufa dman we willl have a hard time extending and a goalie we hope bounces back after 3 seasons now of mediocre play in a row.
You don't trust Dubas to offer a fair price?
 
leafs have had league worst goaltending since Jan 1 though.. its not a few weeks.

December 1st * The fact they are winning this many games with below league average shows you the team is good, they have stinkers of games but they are generally a good team, a good goaltender would negate the need for a d-man and being able to target a top 6 F IMO
 
SuperDave
Shesterkin isn't the best goaltender in the league right now because the Rangers are the best defensively.

Rangers are actually one of the worst in the league defensively.

They get good production out of their back end, but that is about it.

They are a defense that needs two quality additions if they want any chance of keeping up against the high caliber offenses in the East.

Or they can continue counting on Shestyerkin bailing them out night after night, but that won't happen in the playoffs. They will hit a wall eventually.

Funny SuperDave's statement can be interpreted 2 ways.

He isn't the best goaltender because of their defense:
because of
in spite of
 
That's not really fair price though.
I probably wasn't clear, sorry for that.

If you don't feel that is a fair price, it shouldn't be a concern unless you feel Dubas wouldn't offer a fair price and overpay.
 
I wonder if Carter Hart would be available?

It'd take a massive overpayment I'd assume. He's young enough he won't be in his goalie prime for years, he's shown to still have good underlyings despite how awful his team is. He's a guy I'd want as a long-term solution, but I can't see it getting done without something obscene. I'm wondering what FLA is gonna do with Knight, seeing how they have Bob all those years at a contract nobody would touch in their right minds.

I'd even speculate on Askarov seeing how Nashville has one of the best goalies in the league at a relatively young age.
 
I probably wasn't clear, sorry for that.

If you don't feel that is a fair price, it shouldn't be a concern unless you feel Dubas wouldn't offer a fair price and overpay.
I honestly don't think it's fair price. I don't really see a path for us to re-sign Lindholm if we trade for him and Gibson. No matter which one of Campbell (after his raise) or Mrazek you keep in the offseason, that's still a lot of cap spent on goaltending. Trading Nylander who has one of the better contracts on the team and some term left shouldn't be an option. Our top six would be infintely wose without him and Kerfoot/Tavares would be getting dumpstered harder than they are now.
 
But that's the thing. People quote "playoffs" because the team HAS to be elite 5v5 and take advantage of their special team opportunities. The Leafs are one of only 4 teams as I mentioned that are top-10 offensively and defensively, and here is where they rank based on GF/60 / GA/60 on PP/PK respectively:

PP:
1st - Leafs
9th - Flames
12th - Avalanche
15th - Penguins

PK:
3rd - Flames
4th - Leafs
5th - Penguins
22nd - Avs

So to sum, our players are 5th in xGF/60 at 5v5, 9th in xGA/60 at 5v5, 1st in GF/60 on PP, and 4th in GA/60. Our goalies? 28th in sv% 5v5, and 15th in all situations. This team is absolutely built for a long run in the playoffs, it's the best team of my lifetime, and a few minor tweaks (Simmonds out for a top-6F), good goaltending, and our top-line showing up in the playoffs is all we need to go on it.

No team besides the Flames are even close to as complete as we are. Even the Avs who are the best 5v5 team in the league can't touch our special teams.

I'm going to be honest with you, I think there is a disconnect between the Leafs xGA and their actual defensive ability. They don't give up many chances because they have the puck alot, and generally keep teams to the outside. However, when they do give up chances they are back-breakers and that is sometimes missed when you measure xG without any additional context. Sometimes a team only gives up a few high quality chances but those high quality chances end up in the back of the net, so how good are they really?

I track data and analytics in the OHL so I understand that a large sample set helps to reduce alot of noise, and certainly more sophisticated tracking models that incorporate pre-shot movement, rebounds and screens can further help to differentiate the good from the bad. However, in my experience there is still noise because things like box outs and tying up sticks in front help make a difference. For example, if two players get a shot off of a rebound in a HD area but one of them is all alone and the other has to fight through sticks and bodies they are tracked the exact same. In the public sphere there is this tendency to ignore these variations because they stabilize with increased data, but the problem is that the playoffs are a small sample and if there is a blind spot in a model it doesn't disappear with more data, the problem just multiplies at a rate that is smaller than the perceived norms.

All of this is a long winded way of saying that I see weaknesses in the Leafs defense that I don't think the stats are adequately capturing. There is no question that the Leafs goaltending compounds the issue, perhaps more than I am even accounting for, but I do not think the two are isolated.

And to be completely fair, I do not think I can say with certainty that the Panthers will be successful in the playoffs either because we really haven't seen any team quite like them, at least to my memory. They give up a ton of high quality against, but they also out chance and out shoot everyone.
 
I'm going to be honest with you, I think there is a disconnect between the Leafs xGA and their actual defensive ability. They don't give up many chances because they have the puck alot, and generally keep teams to the outside. However, when they do give up chances they are back-breakers and that is sometimes missed when you measure xG without any additional context. Sometimes a team only gives up a few high quality chances but those high quality chances end up in the back of the net, so how good are they really?

I track data and analytics in the OHL so I understand that a large sample set helps to reduce alot of noise, and certainly more sophisticated tracking models that incorporate pre-shot movement, rebounds and screens can further help to differentiate the good from the bad. However, in my experience there is still noise because things like box outs and tying up sticks in front help make a difference. For example, if two players get a shot off of a rebound in a HD area but one of them is all alone and the other has to fight through sticks and bodies they are tracked the exact same. In the public sphere there is this tendency to ignore these variations because they stabilize with increased data, but the problem is that the playoffs are a small sample and if there is a blind spot in a model it doesn't disappear with more data, the problem just multiplies at a rate that is smaller than the perceived norms.

All of this is a long winded way of saying that I see weaknesses in the Leafs defense that I don't think the stats are adequately capturing. There is no question that the Leafs goaltending compounds the issue, perhaps more than I am even accounting for, but I do not think the two are isolated.

And to be completely fair, I do not think I can say with certainty that the Panthers will be successful in the playoffs either because we really haven't seen any team quite like them, at least to my memory. They give up a ton of high quality against, but they also out chance and out shoot everyone.

Great post.

I think the main thing to remember that even with the noise and variance that comes with xG (incorrect tracking locations, lack of context, etc) it is still by far the best stat for predicting future success.

Even if there is a disconnect between the eyes and what the stats say, the thing it really comes down to how many other teams do people watch as religiously as they do the Leafs. When you watch a team you see flaws: effort, mistakes, defense, etc. what the stats allow you to do, especially with a large sample size is block out the noise that your eyes see. Even without looking at raw xG, models like hockeyviz show visually how dominant this team is at defending HD chances conpared to most teams in the league. Every team gives multiple chances like we do a game. I just think that for us every time one happens we notice it more than a usual team does because we have 10x more people point it out. Not to mention we rank in the top-10 for overall shot attempts against, and just outside the top-10 in unblocked shot attempts against. We as a team seem to limit shots entirely which just causes a drop-off in overall chances and in turn xG. I don't think the team is this defensively sound machine (they have flaws just like eveyone else), but their overall effectiveness of not allowing shots or chances is what makes them very good/great defensively.
 
SuperDave



Funny SuperDave's statement can be interpreted 2 ways.

He isn't the best goaltender because of their defense:
because of
in spite of

Definitely in spite of. A good defence can be good even if the goaltending sucks. A goaltender can be good even if the defence sucks. Vice versa.

It's ok to evaluate one part without blaming the other.
 
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