GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 PART III

[LeafSteel]

How am I overrating Knies? He is currently a promising prospect and a known commodity and you have no idea what you may get with the next draft pick. There is zero reason to want to make such a trade.

There is zero reason to trade away a recently drafted prospect for a draft pick. None of the reasons you have provided are legitimate or have any merit. I don't see how anyone can look at this deal and think it's a good one for the Leafs.

I don't like to speak for another poster, and I am of the same mind frame that Knies is not someone I would have any interest of moving, but....

....... the point being made is that Knies was a 2nd round pick in a weak draft. Part of the package would include 'zona's 2nd round pick, which would likely be a high 2nd rounder, in a 2022 Draft that looks stronger than the 2021 Draft that Knies was taken in.

While I understand the black and white logic it presents, I am loathe to do anything with Knies. He represents an intriguing power forward option that we haven't had in ages, and I am eager to watch him develop and become what he will become.

I don't know who his comparable is, but the thought of a young, physical, smooth skating player, with some finish and who can pass is something we (along with every other team) need to keep in our prospects pool. That's why I'm sticking with what we already have instead of trying to see what's behind door No. 2......

 

[zeke]

It's weird though because Holl and Ritchie are better than Lyabushkin and Crouse so why would we add a top prospect?

 

[Leafs1991]

I don't like to speak for another poster, and I am of the same mind frame that Knies is not someone I would have any interest of moving, but....

....... the point being made is that Knies was a 2nd round pick in a weak draft. Part of the package would include 'zona's 2nd round pick, which would likely be a high 2nd rounder, in a 2022 Draft that looks stronger than the 2021 Draft that Knies was taken in.

While I understand the black and white logic it presents, I am loathe to do anything with Knies. He represents an intriguing power forward option that we haven't had in ages, and I am eager to watch him develop and become what he will become.

I don't know who his comparable is, but the thought of a young, physical, smooth skating player, with some finish and who can pass is something we (along with every other team) need to keep in our prospects pool. That's why I'm sticking with what we already have instead of trying to see what's behind door No. 2......

I'm not an idiot, I understand that. It was a weak draft. Okay, why would you still trade away a prospect that actually looks promising? One of the few prospects so far showing promise from that draft.

It doesn't make sense to trade something because they came from a weak draft for an unknown in a strong draft, even more so given what he brings as a power forward prospect.

 

[thusk]

The only thing we disagree on is what Holl is. He's not the crease-clearing, corner owning, physical presence. He's a big guy who plays smaller than his frame.



I'm well aware of the value of guys like David Savard... but Justin Holl isn't a guy like that.

Do we talk about Justin Holl or Martin Marincin??? If i listen to you, nothing hes doing is right.

Hes 1st on leafs defence for defensive playoff start %. He's playing 20 min most of the time against top opponent line bit hes awful and bri g nothing to the leafs... just be serious a moment, keefe/dubas are not stupid. They are #4 as defensive team this seasobn and if we combine both of last 2 season, they are in top 5 and yes holl is a part of that succes you like him or not

We all agree he didn't have a great start of the season or telling hes not a top 3 dmen but a bottom 3 dman who need to play with someone more skilled than him to looking good.

I can give you some exemple player like that in a top 4 of stanley cup winning team... joel Edmundson with blues or michael kempny with washington or olli maatta/ ben lovejoy/ hal gill with pittsburgh. You need the right guy at the good place for what you need

 

[LeafSteel]

I'm not an idiot, I understand that. It was a weak draft. Okay, why would you still trade away a prospect that actually looks promising? One of the few prospects so far showing promise from that draft.

It doesn't make sense to trade something because they came from a weak draft for an unknown in a strong draft, even more so given what he brings as a power forward prospect.

No one said that, and it wasn't necessary.

Relax.

 

[4thline]

If Ritchie really is odd man out him to Nashville for a pick could make sense. They have the space, are doing well, and currently running Tolvanen/Trenin/Cousins as 2/3/4 down the left side. Gives us room to carry 7D plus Clifford on the active roster for heavy games, plus 700k in base cap space.

Sets up a great rotation for the 4thline.

Engvall/Clifford - Engvall/Spezzal - Spezza/Simmonds gives us a lot of different looks, and the ability to rest Spez

 

[francis246]

I have no idea why Tampa paid a 1st++ for Savard. I know they won the Cup, but I feel like they regretted that deal almost as much as we should have regretted the Foligno one, considering Savard was downright awful for Tampa. I find it hard to believe whoever was replaced by Savard (I believe it was Foote) could not have done at least as well as he did.

when you win a cup, there is zero regret. I’m sure Tampa would make that trade every year if it means they win the cup again

 

[LeafSteel]

If Ritchie really is odd man out him to Nashville for a pick could make sense. They have the space, are doing well, and currently running Tolvanen/Trenin/Cousins as 2/3/4 down the left side. Gives us room to carry 7D plus Clifford on the active roster for heavy games, plus 700k in base cap space.

Sets up a great rotation for the 4thline.

Engvall/Clifford - Engvall/Spezzal - Spezza/Simmonds gives us a lot of different looks, and the ability to rest Spez

I am of the mind that Ritchie is the kind of player you want in your lineup come playoff time. Even if he's on the 4th line, guys like him, Simmonds, and Clifford are important to pound and wear down the opposing team's defenders..

He still has a role to play here and I still think he's a part of the plan moving forward, even if he is overpaid by $1 million.

 

[4thline]

I am of the mind that Ritchie is the kind of player you want in your lineup come playoff time. Even if he's on the 4th line, guys like him, Simmonds, and Clifford are important to pound and wear down the opposing team's defenders..

He still has a role to play here and I still think he's a part of the plan moving forward, even if he is overpaid by $1 million.

I agree, and disagree with the idea that he's a completely disapointing trash cap dump. But I think that Clifford can provide the "playoff"/physical element while being more consistently engaged and better defensively, albeit at the cost of almost all offense. I also think that Clifford would take league min to be back in the 12/13 role.

Somethings got to give, the unique parts of Ritchie's game can be replaced, I think those unique parts might seem him draw surprising positive return

 

[Kurtz]

I don't like to speak for another poster, and I am of the same mind frame that Knies is not someone I would have any interest of moving, but....

....... the point being made is that Knies was a 2nd round pick in a weak draft. Part of the package would include 'zona's 2nd round pick, which would likely be a high 2nd rounder, in a 2022 Draft that looks stronger than the 2021 Draft that Knies was taken in.

While I understand the black and white logic it presents, I am loathe to do anything with Knies. He represents an intriguing power forward option that we haven't had in ages, and I am eager to watch him develop and become what he will become.

I don't know who his comparable is, but the thought of a young, physical, smooth skating player, with some finish and who can pass is something we (along with every other team) need to keep in our prospects pool. That's why I'm sticking with what we already have instead of trying to see what's behind door No. 2......

That point is completely illogical. The strength of a past draft is completely irrelevant to the discussion on Knies. Is Knies a very good prospect or not? I say yes. The other prospects in the draft being weak does not diminish Knies himself.

 

[LeafSteel]

That point is completely illogical. The strength of a past draft is completely irrelevant to the discussion on Knies. Is Knies a very good prospect or not? I say yes. The other prospects in the draft being weak does not diminish Knies himself.

I agree with you, that's why I have no interest in seeing Knies included in any trade proposals. I think he can be something we desperately need here, and I don't care about trying to hit a bigger homerun in a "deeper Draft" when I think we already have with Knies.

Yeesh, first and last time I expand on someone else's point.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Leafs - Islanders
Scott Mayfield
for
Travis Dermott & 2nd

Leafs - Coyotes
Lawson Crouse
for
Nick Ritchie

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Kerfoot - Tavares - Nylander
Crouse - - Kampf - - Kase
Engvall - Spezza - Simmonds

Rielly - Brodie
Sandin - Mayfield
Muzzin - Liljigren

Move Mikheyev & Holl

 

[Dreakmur]

Do we talk about Justin Holl or Martin Marincin???

Does it really matter?

Hes 1st on leafs defence for defensive playoff start %. He's playing 20 min most of the time against top opponent line bit hes awful and bri g nothing to the leafs... just be serious a moment, keefe/dubas are not stupid. They are #4 as defensive team this seasobn and if we combine both of last 2 season, they are in top 5 and yes holl is a part of that succes you like him or not

Dubas' stat-based approach is supposed to eliminate personal bias. For whatever reason, they ignore that with Justin Holl.

We all agree he didn't have a great start of the season or telling hes not a top 3 dmen but a bottom 3 dman who need to play with someone more skilled than him to looking good.

It's not about him having a poor start. This is what he is. He had like 15 good games in the bubble.

I can give you some exemple player like that in a top 4 of stanley cup winning team... joel Edmundson with blues or michael kempny with washington or olli maatta/ ben lovejoy/ hal gill with pittsburgh. You need the right guy at the good place for what you need

Role-players are great, but they have to be good at their role. As a 3rd pairing guy, Holl is fine.

 

[Menzinger]

I don't see Crouse as much of an upgrade among the depth wingers. If Ritchie manages to find his scoring touch, even he is a better player.

Knies isn't untouchable but I wouldn't move him unless a major impact player was part of the return. He's got a unique skillet combination, and looks like he's already improved on his draft pedigree by quite a bit already

 

[thusk]

Does it really matter?



Dubas' stat-based approach is supposed to eliminate personal bias. For whatever reason, they ignore that with Justin Holl.



It's not about him having a poor start. This is what he is. He had like 15 good games in the bubble.



Role-players are great, but they have to be good at their role. As a 3rd pairing guy, Holl is fine.

Does it really matter?



Dubas' stat-based approach is supposed to eliminate personal bias. For whatever reason, they ignore that with Justin Holl.



It's not about him having a poor start. This is what he is. He had like 15 good games in the bubble.



Role-players are great, but they have to be good at their role. As a 3rd pairing guy, Holl is fine.

The only player i can see take holl spot someday is liljegren but hes not ready to take that role right now. He can give us in 2-3 season a kind of anton stralman but we need to take our time with him and go gradually.

Dermott for me is a dmen with no savor. Hes not enought good offensivly to have an impact, hes not enought good defensivly to have a shutdown role, hes not physical at all. Hes the player who disappoints me the most because hes at the same level than his NHL debut.

Sandin is not ready defensive side to take a top 4 spot. Leafs should take exemple of tampa with sergachev. Taking time to develop him to a complete player.

So right now, i don't see any better option than holl in top 4, yes in the best of world he play on third pairing but right now he is the best option.

He got a excellent positionning, he keep thing simple in what he can do and dont try to do too much by limitting mistake. Thats why hes playing that much because he the safest dman after the top 3.

 

[shortfuze]

I'm not an idiot, I understand that. It was a weak draft. Okay, why would you still trade away a prospect that actually looks promising? One of the few prospects so far showing promise from that draft.

It doesn't make sense to trade something because they came from a weak draft for an unknown in a strong draft, even more so given what he brings as a power forward prospect.

I’m not actually referring to anyone, especially you but draft position(even in a weak draft) and draft development are completely different. Just cause he was picked in a weak draft doesn’t mean he could never be a star.

 

[Leafs1991]

I’m not actually referring to anyone, especially you but draft position(even in a weak draft) and draft development are completely different. Just cause he was picked in a weak draft doesn’t mean he could never be a star.

Exactly, I agree, and given what he has shown so far, I have no idea why you'd want to trade him just for another chance at the table in 2022. The logic here makes zero sense.

 

[horner]

That point is completely illogical. The strength of a past draft is completely irrelevant to the discussion on Knies. Is Knies a very good prospect or not? I say yes. The other prospects in the draft being weak does not diminish Knies himself.

I agree

He is our only prospect with size skill and a great shot .
Hands off him.
We need to see what he can be .
He already has a Good shot imagine him learning some pointers from Mathews
Not trading this kid..

 

[LaPlante94]

I agree

He is our only prospect with size skill and a great shot .
Hands off him.
We need to see what he can be .
He already has a Good shot imagine him learning some pointers from Mathews
Not trading this kid..

Doesn't he already train with Matthews in the off season? If he doesn't then he sure as hell fooled me because watching him play he has some of the same tendencies as Matthews and his release looks very similar too.

 

[Duke16]

Whichever forwards goes, I hope the Leafs can just get pick(s) in the upcoming Draft.

The Leafs only have two '03 born prospects (Voit and Kressler) and only three picks in the upcoming Draft as is. It would be beneficial to be able to add some more '03 and '04 talent looking ahead.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I don't see Crouse as much of an upgrade among the depth wingers. If Ritchie manages to find his scoring touch, even he is a better player.

Knies isn't untouchable but I wouldn't move him unless a major impact player was part of the return. He's got a unique skillet combination, and looks like he's already improved on his draft pedigree by quite a bit already

I mean outside of a right shot Chychrun type addition, I would almost use the word untouchable.

 

[TheShape]

Unless something top notch is coming back, I'm not entertaining moving Knies, he's pretty close to untouchable. I don't think he's that far off from the NHL either, physically he's ready.

Leafs will be starving for cap space for the foreseeable future, these entry-level contracts are worth their weight in gold.

 

[francis246]

Leafs - Islanders
Scott Mayfield
for
Travis Dermott & 2nd

Leafs - Coyotes
Lawson Crouse
for
Nick Ritchie

Bunting - Matthews - Marner
Kerfoot - Tavares - Nylander
Crouse - - Kampf - - Kase
Engvall - Spezza - Simmonds

Rielly - Brodie
Sandin - Mayfield
Muzzin - Liljigren

Move Mikheyev & Holl

the crouse move isn’t needed Mikheyev is better. We should just keep original soupy.

 

[ToneDog]

Unless something top notch is coming back, I'm not entertaining moving Knies, he's pretty close to untouchable. I don't think he's that far off from the NHL either, physically he's ready.

Leafs will be starving for cap space for the foreseeable future, these entry-level contracts are worth their weight in gold.

I've only seen Knies for a few shifts and he looks good. He could be the player Tyler Biggs failed to be. Leafs are trending to be serious contenders for the SC so any of our prospects could be in play. Personally I hope they don't move any of our top prospects or picks to acquire another rental. I'd move any of our prospects in a package for a Chychrun though.

 

[francis246]

The only player i can see take holl spot someday is liljegren but hes not ready to take that role right now. He can give us in 2-3 season a kind of anton stralman but we need to take our time with him and go gradually.

Dermott for me is a dmen with no savor. Hes not enought good offensivly to have an impact, hes not enought good defensivly to have a shutdown role, hes not physical at all. Hes the player who disappoints me the most because hes at the same level than his NHL debut.

Sandin is not ready defensive side to take a top 4 spot. Leafs should take exemple of tampa with sergachev. Taking time to develop him to a complete player.

So right now, i don't see any better option than holl in top 4, yes in the best of world he play on third pairing but right now he is the best option.

He got a excellent positionning, he keep thing simple in what he can do and dont try to do too much by limitting mistake. Thats why hes playing that much because he the safest dman after the top 3.

I disagree, I think Dermott has offensive upside, he had it in junior and with the Marlies and even in his first call ups with the leafs. But I wouldn’t be surprised if the messaging has been to focus on the defensive side of the puck. In a way I wish they would let Dermott really fly to see exactly what he has to offer but I don’t think the organization has the patience for the turnovers and mistakes that may come with that