I'd be fine with Holl out and just adding a depth guy. Sandin/Liljegren/Dermott have all been good this year so I'm fine with:
Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Liljegren
Sandin-Dermott
cheap depth near league min.
GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread - 2021/22 PART III
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Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-Liljegren
Sandin-Dermott
cheap depth near league min.
Extremely fragile group and 1 injury to a top 4 D away from being a tire fire.
I.e. if Muzzin goes down, which seems to be a R1 ritual at this point, Sandin and Liljegren are going to have to carry that bottom 4. Terrifying idea going up against a physical Atlantic team.
They need to play there eventually.
Roman Josi isn't a big guy and he didn't become an elite d-man by playing sheltered bottom 6 minutes for multiple years.
While everyone is healthy play Liljegren with Muzzin and see how he develops. If it's a tire fire then sure go for a bigger fish, but if you can eventually elevate both kids minutes by going Muzzin-Liljegren, Sandin-Brodie at points it gives them a good veteran d to lean on.
thusk
Registered User
I know some of you will not like my comment but leafs right now leaf need holl.
You will not win anything with the same type of player, you need different style of play. I know his skating is not really good, his offensive and transitionnal play too but no body in this leafs defence hit more than holl, no body sacrifice his body to block shot like holl. No holl is not a skilled dman but hes a warrior and you need to have warrior to win a war and thats whats playoff is...
Brodie, dermott, liljegren, rielly, sandin play the same type of game. Smooth skating, active stick play but none of them will win his 1v1 battle against a big plysical player and it could be a huge problem
Thats why lost of muzzin really hurt leafs during playoff game abd Thats the same reason why an other unpopular former leafs dman played a lot couple of years ago ( Roman Polak).
You will not win anything with the same type of player, you need different style of play. I know his skating is not really good, his offensive and transitionnal play too but no body in this leafs defence hit more than holl, no body sacrifice his body to block shot like holl. No holl is not a skilled dman but hes a warrior and you need to have warrior to win a war and thats whats playoff is...
Brodie, dermott, liljegren, rielly, sandin play the same type of game. Smooth skating, active stick play but none of them will win his 1v1 battle against a big plysical player and it could be a huge problem
Thats why lost of muzzin really hurt leafs during playoff game abd Thats the same reason why an other unpopular former leafs dman played a lot couple of years ago ( Roman Polak).
Dreakmur
Registered User
Not only do they not need him, this team is better without Holl. Him being in the lineup means a better player - Liljegren or Dermott - is out.
There's a difference between a "hit" on a stat sheet and actual physical play. Getting hit with a puck is counted as a blocked shot. Holl isn't what I would call a warrior.
The winner of a 1 on 1 battle comes away with the puck. That doesn't require a bodycheck.
Holl might be big, but he's brutal in 1 on 1 battles.
Losing Muzzin hurts.... because it exposes Holl as a bottom pairing defenseman.
thusk
Registered User
no 1v1 battle you not always come away with the puck because your forgot probably the most important battle, battle 1v1 in front the net. You can't protect the front of your net only by your sticks, you need strenght and be physical. Thats where you win or lose game during playoff, not in the corner but in front of the net and thats where holl is good at. Thats why he play on top pk line too. Just play against like barkov with dmen unable to any physical type of glame... good luck to take away the puck of him
Thats why tampa paid a high price for david savard last season, get a guy doing that kind of stuff. Like i said, you need all kind of player not just skilled player
Dreakmur
Registered User
The only thing we disagree on is what Holl is. He's not the crease-clearing, corner owning, physical presence. He's a big guy who plays smaller than his frame.
I'm well aware of the value of guys like David Savard... but Justin Holl isn't a guy like that.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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To Arizona: Ritchie, Holl, Knies
To Toronto: Crouse, Lyubishkin, 2nd
The Yotes get a player I don't wish to part with, Knies, but with Robertson and Amirov already in the pipeline, I'd suggest we can afford the hit. With all their UFAs a bit more cap when taking on Ritchie and Holl won't hurt, and may help reach the floor, depending on their philosophy moving forward. Both Crouse and Lyubishkin need to be re-signed after this year, Crouse as a RFA, L as a UFA. If Bettman is keen on keeping the team in Arizona, Knies would be doubly attractive as he's from Phoenix and his graduation to the show would match this year's horde of picks.
IMO, Crouse is an upgrade over Ritchie, this year. I think his speed and PK abilities offer us multiple uses, whereas Ritchie has been relegated to 4th line duty. Both have PP experience, Ritchie historically the better scorer, but this year has not worked out for him. Both are top 30 in hits for forwards this year. 0.966M savings for Toronto. Lyubishkin over Holl...I think so, especially given the savings on their respective contracts, Holl being 0.65M more. Crouse can be qualified at 1.75M next year, a decision we don't have to make today and can use the time to see how Robertson and Amirov are developing. I have no idea if the Leafs would be interested in signing L after this year or look elsewhere.
Losing Knies sucks. I think he will be a fine player for an organization, but if we can upgrade in two areas while saving 1.6M - gaining flexibility at the TDL because of it - I'll argue the upgrades could be worth the cost of Knies.
To Toronto: Crouse, Lyubishkin, 2nd
The Yotes get a player I don't wish to part with, Knies, but with Robertson and Amirov already in the pipeline, I'd suggest we can afford the hit. With all their UFAs a bit more cap when taking on Ritchie and Holl won't hurt, and may help reach the floor, depending on their philosophy moving forward. Both Crouse and Lyubishkin need to be re-signed after this year, Crouse as a RFA, L as a UFA. If Bettman is keen on keeping the team in Arizona, Knies would be doubly attractive as he's from Phoenix and his graduation to the show would match this year's horde of picks.
IMO, Crouse is an upgrade over Ritchie, this year. I think his speed and PK abilities offer us multiple uses, whereas Ritchie has been relegated to 4th line duty. Both have PP experience, Ritchie historically the better scorer, but this year has not worked out for him. Both are top 30 in hits for forwards this year. 0.966M savings for Toronto. Lyubishkin over Holl...I think so, especially given the savings on their respective contracts, Holl being 0.65M more. Crouse can be qualified at 1.75M next year, a decision we don't have to make today and can use the time to see how Robertson and Amirov are developing. I have no idea if the Leafs would be interested in signing L after this year or look elsewhere.
Losing Knies sucks. I think he will be a fine player for an organization, but if we can upgrade in two areas while saving 1.6M - gaining flexibility at the TDL because of it - I'll argue the upgrades could be worth the cost of Knies.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
- 35,591
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I am not trading Knies for Crouse and Lyubushkin with the thought that they are upgrades on Holl and Ritchie. They are not. Drop Knies and the 2nd, and that is the only deal the Leafs should even bother considering. Cap space is the only real benefit, and I would be looking at other moves before I would make this one.
Holl is a better defenseman than Lyubushkin, and if we put Crouse in Ritchie's role on the 4th line (which is almost certainly what would happen if we acquired him), I doubt Crouse would look or perform any better than Ritchie besides maybe having a better shooting percentage (which could easily happen for Ritchie going forward as well).
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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I have no idea why Tampa paid a 1st++ for Savard. I know they won the Cup, but I feel like they regretted that deal almost as much as we should have regretted the Foligno one, considering Savard was downright awful for Tampa. I find it hard to believe whoever was replaced by Savard (I believe it was Foote) could not have done at least as well as he did.
I worry about how brittle that is. league min depth guy can likely only play one side, causes what ever pair they join to drop in effectiveness, and can't make a viable pairing with a call up if we're ever down two dmen. IMO the 500k to be 7 deep is worth it.
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 27,260
- 34,233
So we are trading a very good prospect for slight upgrades at best? Dubas better stay away from this kind of deal.
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Some don't like the deal but it makes some sense.
Second round pick Knies in a poor draft class for a high 2nd in what should be a good draft class is fair IMO, Holl for Lyubishkin (don't know Lyubishkin so I'll assume we do it to dump Holl and gain valuable cap space), Ritchie for Crouse is a win as we get more cap space.
Doubt Knies is enough to get Zona to take the Holl and Ritchie contracts.
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
You are forgetting the high 2nd and cap space. The deal is not as bad as you think it is IMO.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
- 78,340
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No kidding. I know we don’t know what it feels like to win a cup but I can’t imagine regret being one of the emotions.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
- 78,340
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It's a terrible deal. You are trading away a valuable prospect who is looking promising just for a tiny bit of cap space and a future draft pick?
thusk
Registered User
Do we talk about Justin Holl or Martin Marincin??? If i listen to you, nothing hes doing is right.
Hes 1st on leafs defence for defensive playoff start %. He's playing 20 min most of the time against top opponent line bit hes awful and bri g nothing to the leafs... just be serious a moment, keefe/dubas are not stupid. They will put o the ice the player they think they will give the best chance to win.
Knies is not a player that I have any appetite for any trade.
He is finally a power forward in our pipeline that we haven't had in forever. I can see him becoming our top rated prospect, and the prospect that I am the most interested in at this point of time.
Truth be told, I am more excited about Knies, Topi, and Roni than I am any other players in our pipeline, including Robertson. I think we could have some pretty special players in them that can be a help sooner rather than later.
For me, Roni, Topi, and particularly Knies, are all off the table.
He is finally a power forward in our pipeline that we haven't had in forever. I can see him becoming our top rated prospect, and the prospect that I am the most interested in at this point of time.
Truth be told, I am more excited about Knies, Topi, and Roni than I am any other players in our pipeline, including Robertson. I think we could have some pretty special players in them that can be a help sooner rather than later.
For me, Roni, Topi, and particularly Knies, are all off the table.
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
You might be overeating Knies. The 2nd included in the deal should be higher than the one used to take Knies and it is a deeper draft. You may not like it but it is far from a terrible deal IMO.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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Twenty-two reasons to be optimistic about the Maple Leafs in 2022 – The Athletic
20. Speaking of which, the Leafs have a first-round pick (for now) in the 2022 draft
First-rounders were sent elsewhere in 2019 and 2021. For now, at least, the Leafs have a first-round pick in the 2022 draft.
Not much else though. Picks in the third, fourth, fifth and sixth round are all gone. It looks like a sure thing that the team will keep their pick in the seventh, though. That could have gone to Minnesota if Brennan Menell had played in 30 games, which doesn’t appear to be happening. (He hasn’t suited up in even one.)
Might that first-rounder get moved ahead of the deadline? It sure is possible. The Leafs are in win-now mode. Nothing should be off the table.
................
Bonus: Phil Kessel’s contract comes off the books
Somewhere this summer, Brandon Pridham will be celebrating. This will be the seventh(!) and final season that Kessel’s $1.2 million cap hit sits on the books. Time to spend that cheddar!
20. Speaking of which, the Leafs have a first-round pick (for now) in the 2022 draft
First-rounders were sent elsewhere in 2019 and 2021. For now, at least, the Leafs have a first-round pick in the 2022 draft.
Not much else though. Picks in the third, fourth, fifth and sixth round are all gone. It looks like a sure thing that the team will keep their pick in the seventh, though. That could have gone to Minnesota if Brennan Menell had played in 30 games, which doesn’t appear to be happening. (He hasn’t suited up in even one.)
Might that first-rounder get moved ahead of the deadline? It sure is possible. The Leafs are in win-now mode. Nothing should be off the table.
................
Bonus: Phil Kessel’s contract comes off the books
Somewhere this summer, Brandon Pridham will be celebrating. This will be the seventh(!) and final season that Kessel’s $1.2 million cap hit sits on the books. Time to spend that cheddar!
How am I overrating Knies? He is currently a promising prospect and a known commodity and you have no idea what you may get with the next draft pick. There is zero reason to want to make such a trade.
There is zero reason to trade away a recently drafted prospect for a draft pick. None of the reasons you have provided are legitimate or have any merit. I don't see how anyone can look at this deal and think it's a good one for the Leafs.
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