Toronto Sports Media Discussion Thread - v7 (2022 Edition)

[LeafChief]

I'm an old man, admittedly. A lifetime ago, I knew a fair amount of inside information about the NHL due to my job(s) in the media and on the union/player rep side of things. Those days are long gone. But, even then, I fully understood that I only saw a tiny fraction of what went on behind closed doors, in locker rooms and in the GM's office.

That's why I've always found the unconditional support for Kyle Dubas amongst a small, but vocal, group of posters a puzzling phenomenon. The time and energy some individuals put into defending Dubas (a stranger who never played the game at a high level, a rookie GM who made decisions based in large part on information that's not made public) makes me think I must be missing something. It's a familiar feeling, to be fair. Personally, I thought Dubas was middling as Leafs GM. Not terrible, not great...and a bit bland and reliant on cliches with the media.

I'm not interested in the good-or-bad debate, though. It's been litigated enough as far as I'm concerned and he's no longer with the team. I'm interested in whether some of you, who know a lot more than I do, can tell me if there are any credible media figures out there in the real world that could reasonably be identified as having been truly partisan boosters for Dubas. Basically, I suspect the absolutism we see here is actually simply a localised phenomenon from a few anonymous posters and that we notice much more because we spend time on these message boards thus getting caught up in the invective and the repetition.

That said, I have heard some well known broadcasters/podcasters occasionally refer to 'Dubasites' etc. as if it's something that also exists outside of HFBoards. So, I'd like to explore that, if I may. Obviously people can say whatever they like in response, but, I'll post the following questions as a framework to (hopefully) guide the discussion:

1. What kicked it off? I was/am bewildered and disappointed in the Marner contract and first noticed it then.

2. Is anyone aware of any other NHL GM, past or current, that has received this kind of attention from fans?

3. Is there a single pundit/journalist who presented Shanahan as wholly at fault for Dubas' firing?

Hopefully, this doesn't turn into another emotive back-and-forth debating Dubas' merits or commenting on certain indivdual posters. I do have my own opinions -- but my opinions are just that: they are subjective and based on what is ultimately very limited information. You certainly won't hear me labelling my own opinions as 'correct'.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

PS: Apologies for hijacking an existing thread -- it felt too presumptuous to create a new thread (not even sure I can?) for a post most people likely aren't interested in. Happy to do that if advised by a mod that it might be worthwhile.

Having an account since 2012 and making your first post in 2023 is quite a feat. Welcome!

 

[tmlms13]

TSN needs to get Frankie to replace Noodles permanently on Overdrive

 

[Judas Tavares]

Geez first post in nearly 12 years after creating an account. Crazy haha.

1. I think there are a lot of factors that led into it. One being how much of a mess our front office had been before he came here, and also how it was a drastic shift from the old boys club (Burke to nonis to Lou) to a new young buck that thinks the game differently than those old heads do.

This was big for me. Coming out of the '05 lockout, the Leafs were still stuck in the past. We saw teams shift gears to a changed game with young, amazing talent, consistently destroying us. Our team was old and talentless for the most part.

It was essentially a decade of misery, incompetence and rushed attempts at rebuilding after being years late to the party. I, for one, was ready for some forward thinking at that point. Dubas ended up tripping over his own shoes and Shanahan may have untied his laces as well, but eff me if I wanted another GM stuck in some weird mashup of the 70s and the 90s.

 

[William Johnson]

Geez first post in nearly 12 years after creating an account. Crazy haha.

1. I think there are a lot of factors that led into it. One being how much of a mess our front office had been before he came here, and also how it was a drastic shift from the old boys club (Burke to nonis to Lou) to a new young buck that thinks the game differently than those old heads do.

The media really hyped him up too. Constantly talking about what he's accomplished at such a young age, other teams trying to poach him before he official came our gm, promises that he was an out of the box thinker and would do stuff no other GMs would try. I think it got a lot of people excited for Kyle dubas being the gm.

Another big thing is that both mirtle and seigel, the two main leaf writers for the athletic were super pro dubas. They basically wrote articles for 5 years straight about him and hyping up everything he's done. Just look at what they were writing after he was fired, it was honestly kind of pathetic 'It doesn’t make any sense': Kyle Dubas’ dismissal leaves Maple Leafs staff confused and hurt

I think this article also feeds into the fact about "dubasites" even outside of the fandom as this piece was written like a memorial and people inside the organization were completely gutted and appalled that he was fired.

2. Only other gm that comes close to the dubas praise and probably gets more is Yzerman. I personally find Yzerman overrated and never really understood it... He's not doing the greatest in Detroit now and is kind of getting exposed imo.

3. Again l, I'd go back to mirtle and seigel. They were not happy when dubas got fired and made it seem like a doomsday scenario. I think a part of the reason they were so pro dubas is that dubas picked them as their media guys and would feed them information and insights to write about.

Firstly, thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply.

Yes, I agree with you about Mirtle and Siegel and their reputation as pro-Dubas. Neither of them were around in my day -- Dubas was in diapers, for that matter. I had the same reaction as you to the rather maudlin article about broken-hearted MLSE employees post-firing. To my old, cynical ears it sounded like a puff piece done as a favour for all the backchannel info provided to them by Dubas. At the same time, I fully understand that an off-the-record relationship with a GM is like gold for a journalist so I don't hold it against them actually. Others more in the know disagree, obviously, but I'm a bit more pragmatic about it and don't really see them as utterly shameless in their boosting of Dubas. I'm not sure I've ever seen an opinion piece, for example, that comes anywhere near the kind of blinkered stuff we see here on the boards on a daily basis. I also suspect they know they have to continue to cultivate and maintain a relationship with the current management. Happy to be corrected on this, though -- I can't pay nearly as much attention as I would like to.

As for Yzerman, well, we're talking about Steve Yzerman, Hall of Famer etc. etc.. I can understand why there might be some worshipful folks out there. Which is kind of my point. If the only comparable to the kind of unconditional fandom Dubas has received is Steve Yzerman, it's a bit odd, in my opinion.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to reply.

 

[William Johnson]

Having an account since 2012 and making your first post in 2023 is quite a feat. Welcome!

Thank you!

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Geez first post in nearly 12 years after creating an account. Crazy haha.

1. I think there are a lot of factors that led into it. One being how much of a mess our front office had been before he came here, and also how it was a drastic shift from the old boys club (Burke to nonis to Lou) to a new young buck that thinks the game differently than those old heads do.

The media really hyped him up too. Constantly talking about what he's accomplished at such a young age, other teams trying to poach him before he official came our gm, promises that he was an out of the box thinker and would do stuff no other GMs would try. I think it got a lot of people excited for Kyle dubas being the gm.

Another big thing is that both mirtle and seigel, the two main leaf writers for the athletic were super pro dubas. They basically wrote articles for 5 years straight about him and hyping up everything he's done. Just look at what they were writing after he was fired, it was honestly kind of pathetic 'It doesn’t make any sense': Kyle Dubas’ dismissal leaves Maple Leafs staff confused and hurt

I think this article also feeds into the fact about "dubasites" even outside of the fandom as this piece was written like a memorial and people inside the organization were completely gutted and appalled that he was fired.

2. Only other gm that comes close to the dubas praise and probably gets more is Yzerman. I personally find Yzerman overrated and never really understood it... He's not doing the greatest in Detroit now and is kind of getting exposed imo.

3. Again l, I'd go back to mirtle and seigel. They were not happy when dubas got fired and made it seem like a doomsday scenario. I think a part of the reason they were so pro dubas is that dubas picked them as their media guys and would feed them information and insights to write about.

This was always the thing that stuck with me regarding Dubas that I just couldn't ever get to like him as a GM. He was talked about the next big thing in GM'ing. Basically his shit doesn't stink. He's young, fresh, relies heavily on analytics, etc. He was going to break down the barriers of the "old boys' club" and revolutionize the GM position. Then we saw another GM just like him in Chayka get the job in Arizona and everyone's rubbing their hands in glee that this was the sea of change. And we know how that ended there.

In the end, when you were are touted with high expectations you expect big things, we still got the same results, just approached in a different manner. He talked a big game, and that comes from being able to speak eloquently, but it's not different than the typical salesperson who can bullshit his way through life just because he/she sounds good.

Sidenote: Both Mirtle and Siegel are dorks. Never could stand them. They're insufferable to read and listen to.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I'm digging Luke Gazdic on the SportsNet panel. It's refreshing to see a former player stay in the game providing insight, all the while delivering just the goods with no ego connotation behind it.

 

[613Leafer]

How were the Overdrive boys on the Leafs panel for the game last night? I missed it.

 

[francis246]

This was always the thing that stuck with me regarding Dubas that I just couldn't ever get to like him as a GM. He was talked about the next big thing in GM'ing. Basically his shit doesn't stink. He's young, fresh, relies heavily on analytics, etc. He was going to break down the barriers of the "old boys' club" and revolutionize the GM position. Then we saw another GM just like him in Chayka get the job in Arizona and everyone's rubbing their hands in glee that this was the sea of change. And we know how that ended there.

In the end, when you were are touted with high expectations you expect big things, we still got the same results, just approached in a different manner. He talked a big game, and that comes from being able to speak eloquently, but it's not different than the typical salesperson who can bullshit his way through life just because he/she sounds good.

Sidenote: Both Mirtle and Siegel are dorks. Never could stand them. They're insufferable to read and listen to.

I look at and separate Dubas’ years here in two different categories. On ice product and hockey operations.

I do believe that Kyle Dubas alongside Lou Lam really revitalized different aspects of the hockey operations. The Marlies legitimately became a top tier development system for coaches and players.

I think under Dubas the organization went through positive change. Restructured departments and made some good hires. Kyle also played a role in making Toronto a desirable place to play again. Players around the league like him. He’s a good person. Better suited as a president with someone more shrewd and cut throat as GM

The flip side is Kyle was average at building a championship on ice product. Covid May have a screwed his plan to be an innovative GM but his plans had some flaws even without Covid. I do believe Kyle’s ego and desire to be liked by the players ultimately bit him in the ass.

 

[wingman75]

How were the Overdrive boys on the Leafs panel for the game last night? I missed it.

I thought they were great, as usual. Entertaining and funny. Some clips for you...

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

This was always the thing that stuck with me regarding Dubas that I just couldn't ever get to like him as a GM. He was talked about the next big thing in GM'ing. Basically his shit doesn't stink. He's young, fresh, relies heavily on analytics, etc. He was going to break down the barriers of the "old boys' club" and revolutionize the GM position. Then we saw another GM just like him in Chayka get the job in Arizona and everyone's rubbing their hands in glee that this was the sea of change. And we know how that ended there.

In the end, when you were are touted with high expectations you expect big things, we still got the same results, just approached in a different manner. He talked a big game, and that comes from being able to speak eloquently, but it's not different than the typical salesperson who can bullshit his way through life just because he/she sounds good.

Sidenote: Both Mirtle and Siegel are dorks. Never could stand them. They're insufferable to read and listen to.

100 Percent of the media bozos in this city are f***ing losers.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

I thought they were great, as usual. Entertaining and funny. Some clips for you...

Epic ending to the Quiz lol

 

[DarkKnight]

Jonas on Overdrive. This guy is so rooting against them this year, it's pathetic to watch his total bias. Dubas is gone, get some therapy to help you move on and find some objectivity. Literally ridiculous this year to listen to. It's SO obvious.

 

[Apex Predator]

Jonas on Overdrive. This guy is so rooting against them this year, it's pathetic to watch his total bias. Dubas is gone, get some therapy to help you move on and find some objectivity. Literally ridiculous this year to listen to. It's SO obvious.

I stopped listening to the leafs report because of him. Is there any other good podcast worth listening to about the Leafs?

 

[DarkKnight]

I stopped listening to the leafs report because of him. Is there any other good podcast worth listening to about the Leafs?

LeafsTalk is okay. I stopped listening as well.

O dog just called out Jonas saying he would be saying different "if Kyle Dubas was in the pressbox" LMAO! Hayes and him both called out Dubas bias, love it!!

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Watching Hayes and O-Dog battle Jonas right now is prime TV lmao

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Jonas is getting on my nerves too I don't blame Odog.

 

[DarkKnight]

Watching Hayes and O-Dog battle Jonas right now is prime TV lmao

Oh man they're ripping him good!

 

[CabanaBoy5]

Jonas on Overdrive. This guy is so rooting against them this year, it's pathetic to watch his total bias. Dubas is gone, get some therapy to help you move on and find some objectivity. Literally ridiculous this year to listen to. It's SO obvious.

It's ridiculous listening to this guy. O'dog is so frustrated with the guy he has to laugh. His dislike for Treliving and admiration for Dubas is frankly quite disturbing.

 

[DarkKnight]

Lmao!!!! Man that's gold.

 

[Apex Predator]

It's ridiculous listening to this guy. O'dog is so frustrated with the guy he has to laugh. His dislike for Treliving and admiration for Dubas is frankly quite disturbing.

He’s on this board. He will be reading this. Jonas take a step back it’s not the end of the world because Dubas is gone.

 

[LOFIN]

As an outsider, the hating on Jonas is funny. I do think he does embrace his role as the villain in the show. But he does make some good points though, no matter how much O'Dog yells at him.

 

[stickty111]

Jonas has got a bit annoying since Dubas was let go, but his overall opinion isn't wrong in that Brad's adds haven't worked so far in his articles. Domi and Bertuzzi are finding their way though.
I know I'd rather watch Hayes and Jonas yelling at each other than watch Jamie discounting anything good Leafs related, and Jeff with his jokes that aren't funny.

 

[garce]

Jonas on Overdrive. This guy is so rooting against them this year, it's pathetic to watch his total bias. Dubas is gone, get some therapy to help you move on and find some objectivity. Literally ridiculous this year to listen to. It's SO obvious.

So true, and I have always liked Mirtle and Jonas. Jonas has really lost objectivity since Dubas departed. The last Leaf Report was epic for its tone of utter gloom and disaster. I left a comment on the Athletic saying just that and it hadn’t appeared as of yesterday. I was ok with Kyle too but his big power move failed get over it boys or go cover the Penguin

 

[TheBeastCoast]

The main thing I really felt Jonas was off on was the goalies. Like he is assuming Woll isn’t sustainable while at the same time thinks Sammy’s play is the true him. That is contradicting yourself and being negative to be negative.