Toronto Maple Leafs: Who Would Replace Kyle Dubas?

[Stephen]

Hasn't business as usual kind of been the issue?

Partially that, but I also think the issue has been learning curve and growing pains of the GM, coaching staff and core players at the same time.

For example, the design and cap management that produced the 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs was horrendous. It's a much better team here in 2022-23. So would we be firing Dubas based on early mistakes, recent mistakes or the whole body of work?

 

[All Mod Cons]

Partially that, but I also think the issue has been learning curve and growing pains of the GM, coaching staff and core players at the same time.

For example, the design and cap management that produced the 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs was horrendous. It's a much better team here in 2022-23. So would we be firing Dubas based on early mistakes, recent mistakes or the whole body of work?

For the record, I have zero doubts that Dubas will not be fired. However, for his whole body of work, is it that impressive in all honesty? He took over a top 6/7 team in the regular season that couldn't get it done in the playoffs. He's turned them into a top 5/6 team in the regular season thar can't get it done in the playoffs.

For this improvement of a place or two in the regular season, he's traded away multiple 1st round draft picks, let lots of guys walk and ploughed through most of the 4th line players in the league.

He's certainly not useless, but are there many of us on this board, that would've achieved significantly less? People act like we absolutely need to keep him. We can't let a wonder of a GM slip through our fingers. The tangible results don't nearly match up with the aura he carries on this board.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Not much out there for GM that are currently available imo.

Two names that are currently employed but could be available in the off-season is Preds GM, David Poile and Capitals GM, Brian MacLellan.

Poile born and raised in Toronto. Always had teams built through the draft and he currently has signed 1 year deals over the last 2-3 years. So you don’t need permission to speak to him. His contract will expire at the end of the year and he could want to come to Toronto with the most talent he ever had and resources to spend. Could bring in his guy Trotz again.

MacLellan’s record isn’t that impressive with the Caps outside of the cup year. But he has experience with a core of superstars in Washington that had regular season success but didn’t have much success in the playoffs. But could be on the hot seat with an aging core and team that may miss the playoffs.

If both Shanny and Dubas are canned, maybe Poile takes the president position if he doesn’t want to do the day to day, hires MacLellan as GM and to repeat history, MacLellan hires Trotz.

Can’t go with a rookie president, a rookie GM and a rookie coach again. Experience all around with Poile, MacLellan and Trotz would be ideal.

My only issue with Poile has been that in the entire existence of the Preds, they haven't produced very many offensive players. They are an absolute Defensive factory producing many great D men over the years with the likes of Weber, Suter, Hamhuis, Ellis, Ekholm etc. Outside of Forsberg, there hasn't been much in the way of star talent up front.

Overall, he's run a pretty successful and competitive team in a small market over the years.

Wouldn't be a bad choice

 

[phillipmike]

My only issue with Poile has been that in the entire existence of the Preds, they haven't produced very many offensive players. They are an absolute Defensive factory producing many great D men over the years with the likes of Weber, Suter, Hamhuis, Ellis, Ekholm etc. Outside of Forsberg, there hasn't been much in the way of star talent up front.

Overall, he's run a pretty successful and competitive team in a small market over the years.

Wouldn't be a bad choice

It may be a good reason to get a guy like him. Leafs have all the offensive talent in the world with defense that could be better from a personnel and structure standpoint. Guys like Polie and Trotz could give you that different look you need.

In the end, there is no clear cut answer. You could bring in prime Scottie Bowman and he couldn’t win anything but if the leafs don’t win rounds this year, I can’t see how you bring the same regime back. They were given too many chances and haven’t made any impactful changes that have been positive for almost 3 seasons now.

 

[TMLegend]

Partially that, but I also think the issue has been learning curve and growing pains of the GM, coaching staff and core players at the same time.

For example, the design and cap management that produced the 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs was horrendous. It's a much better team here in 2022-23. So would we be firing Dubas based on early mistakes, recent mistakes or the whole body of work?

First off, we would be letting Dubas go on his body of work.

Very little tangible improvement during his tenure despite trading a substantial amount of futures.

As of today, his drafting record is just okay. Sandin is a fringe top-6 defender and Robertson is an oft-injured winger who hasn't shown much at the NHL level yet. Ironically, his best draft pick thus far in Durzi was traded in the Muzzin deal. The rest are magic beans until they do something of note at the NHL level.

He botched the MNM deals. Especially Marners. This has been beaten to death so I won't get into it here.

My number #1 reason for letting him go is that I don't believe he's a great evaluator of NHL talent, either that or the pro scouting team is poor. He's on the losing side when it comes to most of his bigger personnel decisions. Trading for Barrie and Foligno, choosing to protect Holl/Kerfoot over McCann. Even the Muzzin trade is arguable. Was Muzzin a good player for us? Yes, but he was consistently dealing with injuries and didn't move the needle at all for us at the end of the day. There's been a few finds along the way, but overall it's been sub-par.

To me, if the Leafs keep Dubas and they go out early again this spring it tells me they have no idea how to get over the hump. If they extend the guy who's had 4 and soon to be 5 cracks at the can of finding the right mixture of players, coaches, and personnel and has failed everytime it will firmly etch into my mind that this organization has a loser culture around it. Rewarding continued failure isn't acceptable.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

It may be a good reason to get a guy like him. Leafs have all the offensive talent in the world with defense that could be better from a personnel and structure standpoint. Guys like Polie and Trotz could give you that different look you need.

In the end, there is no clear cut answer. You could bring in prime Scottie Bowman and he couldn’t win anything but if the leafs don’t win rounds this year, I can’t see how you bring the same regime back. They were given too many chances and haven’t made any impactful changes that have been positive for almost 3 seasons now.

If we lose early again and Dubas is not re signed, it would be totally justified.

So far I think Poile has been the only decent person mentioned who could be a possible upgrade over Dubas. I think Trotz could be good GM if given the chance but he would still be a rookie. Spezza I think will make a great GM but not for another 5-6 yrs I would say.

 

[Buds17]

Partially that, but I also think the issue has been learning curve and growing pains of the GM, coaching staff and core players at the same time.

For example, the design and cap management that produced the 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs was horrendous. It's a much better team here in 2022-23. So would we be firing Dubas based on early mistakes, recent mistakes or the whole body of work?

He'd be getting fired based on taking over a first round exit team and not propelling it any further than that since. All of the work done throughout is essentially of his doing at this point (players, contracts, coach).

 

[phillipmike]

If we lose early again and Dubas is not re signed, it would be totally justified.

So far I think Poile has been the only decent person mentioned who could be a possible upgrade over Dubas. I think Trotz could be good GM if given the chance but he would still be a rookie. Spezza I think will make a great GM but not for another 5-6 yrs I would say.

For me it’s a non starter to give a rookie GM a shot in Toronto especially with this core. One mistake I believe the Leafs made is giving Dubas another year. To me he has to win 2 rounds to get an extension. And if Dubas isn’t re-signed, why are you going to re-sign 5-8 years of your career if you are Matthews with a new GM who you don’t know what his vision for the team is nor worked with him? This is the Tavares situation in Long Island again. They fired Snow too late when they saw he was bad at his job based on playoff results.

It’s hard to build a reputation with a generational player on the fly. Only way to do it is with some creditability and if I’m Matthews I’m not signing my remaining best years with another rookie GM.

Only way guys like Matthews and Marner re-sign with another rookie GM at the helm is because they will take the team to cleaners again. Need to bring some GM with experience and legitimacy to back it up.

Not that I want him long term but for the sake of continuity, the Leafs should have either committed to Dubas (a very bad idea based on team philosophy, building and results) or fired him last off season (or 2 off-seasons ago imo) and get a new GM who could have had 2 seasons under their belt with this core to build a relationship with the core or to have started moving guys out.

 

[centipede2233]

First off, we would be letting Dubas go on his body of work.

Very little tangible improvement during his tenure despite trading a substantial amount of futures.

As of today, his drafting record is just okay. Sandin is a fringe top-6 defender and Robertson is an oft-injured winger who hasn't shown much at the NHL level yet. Ironically, his best draft pick thus far in Durzi was traded in the Muzzin deal. The rest are magic beans until they do something of note at the NHL level.

He botched the MNM deals. Especially Marners. This has been beaten to death so I won't get into it here.

My number #1 reason for letting him go is that I don't believe he's a great evaluator of NHL talent, either that or the pro scouting team is poor. He's on the losing side when it comes to most of his bigger personnel decisions. Trading for Barrie and Foligno, choosing to protect Holl/Kerfoot over McCann. Even the Muzzin trade is arguable. Was Muzzin a good player for us? Yes, but he was consistently dealing with injuries and didn't move the needle at all for us at the end of the day. There's been a few finds along the way, but overall it's been sub-par.

To me, if the Leafs keep Dubas and they go out early again this spring it tells me they have no idea how to get over the hump. If they extend the guy who's had 4 and soon to be 5 cracks at the can of finding the right mixture of players, coaches, and personnel and has failed everytime it will firmly etch into my mind that this organization has a loser culture around it. Rewarding continued failure isn't acceptable.

You’ve touched on a great point. Dubas makes decisions on players on what they have done in the past (like several years ago past) instead of using his pro scouts to find the 20 someth8ng year olds like mason marchment, a nick Paul or Blake Coleman like what Tampa did there, or a b.Schenn or RoR with Stlouis. Have you noticed the cup winning teams acquire skill top 6 guys with grit that are in their prime. Dubas acquires Thornton, simmonds, Clifford , way past their best before date. Dubas has excercised zero foresight.

You know one name that might be available is brad treliving. He’s on an expiring contract as well, and if Calgary misses the playoffs I could see him not being retained. I think he’s done a good job under tough scenarios. He’s also not afraid to pulling off big trades, likely that needs to happen with one or more of the core 4.

 

[centipede2233]

I’ll post a super crazy idea, something so off the wall, why not try it. Hire trotz and nick kypreos has co-GM’s. I have watched kypreos on real kyper and Bourne and his insight is spot on. His assessment is thoughtful, intelligent and really on point. Now that doesn’t necessarily make him a great gm, but he knows the team, he seems to have sound knowledge on what ingredients to build a team. You have trotz for a cohesion of ideas. i Would then hire boudreau as Head coach and trotz would be an associate coach. Ok, throw your rotten tomatoes at me!

 

[Leaf Fans]

I’ll post a super crazy idea, something so off the wall, why not try it. Hire trotz and nick kypreos has co-GM’s. I have watched kypreos on real kyper and Bourne and his insight is spot on. His assessment is thoughtful, intelligent and really on point. Now that doesn’t necessarily make him a great gm, but he knows the team, he seems to have sound knowledge on what ingredients to build a team. You have trotz for a cohesion of ideas. i Would then hire boudreau as Head coach and trotz would be an associate coach. Ok, throw your rotten tomatoes at me!

LoL Kypreos. I don't think he has a chance. He has no insight. He was an NHL player - he has that, but his takes are similar to the low brow board members.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You’ve touched on a great point. Dubas makes decisions on players on what they have done in the past (like several years ago past) instead of using his pro scouts to find the 20 someth8ng year olds like mason marchment, a nick Paul or Blake Coleman like what Tampa did there, or a b.Schenn or RoR with Stlouis. Have you noticed the cup winning teams acquire skill top 6 guys with grit that are in their prime. Dubas acquires Thornton, simmonds, Clifford , way past their best before date.

Tavares, Bunting, Mikyehev, Kampf, Timmins, Kerfoot, Kase, Ritchie, Lyubushkin, Ceci, Blackwell, Barabanov, ZAR, McMann, Galchenyuk, Vesey, etc., etc.
Dubas has targeted a ton of players in their 20s, based on what they were doing in the present, or what they could do in the future.
Tampa has old guys too, in similar roles as Thornton/Clifford/Simmonds were.

Hire trotz and nick kypreos has co-GM’s.

There are no words for how bad of an idea that is.

 

[centipede2233]

Tavares, Bunting, Mikyehev, Kampf, Timmins, Kerfoot, Kase, Ritchie, Lyubushkin, Ceci, Blackwell, Barabanov, ZAR, McMann, Galchenyuk, Vesey, etc., etc.
Dubas has targeted a ton of players in their 20s, based on what they were doing in the present, or what they could do in the future.
Tampa has old guys too, in similar roles as Thornton/Clifford/Simmonds were.

There are no words for how bad of an idea that is.

None of those players are top 6 with grit….maybe with the exception of bunting whose undersized

 

[Gary Nylund]

For the record, I have zero doubts that Dubas will not be fired. However, for his whole body of work, is it that impressive in all honesty? He took over a top 6/7 team in the regular season that couldn't get it done in the playoffs. He's turned them into a top 5/6 team in the regular season thar can't get it done in the playoffs.

For this improvement of a place or two in the regular season, he's traded away multiple 1st round draft picks, let lots of guys walk and ploughed through most of the 4th line players in the league.

He's certainly not useless, but are there many of us on this board, that would've achieved significantly less? People act like we absolutely need to keep him. We can't let a wonder of a GM slip through our fingers. The tangible results don't nearly match up with the aura he carries on this board.

A bit simplistic for me. He's completely revamped out Defence, and in a good way. It sucks that the players haven't been able to get it done, but not sure how Dubas was supposed to be able to know that they wouldn't show up for game 7 three years in a row after playing well all season to that point.

 

[ACC1224]

I’ll post a super crazy idea, something so off the wall, why not try it. Hire trotz and nick kypreos has co-GM’s. I have watched kypreos on real kyper and Bourne and his insight is spot on. His assessment is thoughtful, intelligent and really on point. Now that doesn’t necessarily make him a great gm, but he knows the team, he seems to have sound knowledge on what ingredients to build a team. You have trotz for a cohesion of ideas. i Would then hire boudreau as Head coach and trotz would be an associate coach. Ok, throw your rotten tomatoes at me!

Good hockey men no doubt but I very much doubt they will go the inexperienced route again.

None of those players are top 6 with grit….maybe with the exception of bunting whose undersized

Not sure yapping incessantly would be considered grit. It's becoming a little tiresome watching him yap and never backing it up.

 

[rocketman588]

If we lose early again and Dubas is not re signed, it would be totally justified.

So far I think Poile has been the only decent person mentioned who could be a possible upgrade over Dubas. I think Trotz could be good GM if given the chance but he would still be a rookie. Spezza I think will make a great GM but not for another 5-6 yrs I would say.

I would love for us to back the dump truck up for waddell

A bit simplistic for me. He's completely revamped out Defence, and in a good way. It sucks that the players haven't been able to get it done, but not sure how Dubas was supposed to be able to know that they wouldn't show up for game 7 three years in a row after playing well all season to that point.

Our defense is fine but it's not like they're the Stevens era devil's

The best thing Keefe has done in my opinion is being able to paper over our defensive cracks with a solid neutral zone system and forecheck

We're not great in our own zone

 

[Dekes For Days]

None of those players are top 6 with grit….maybe with the exception of bunting whose undersized

You suggested that Dubas just goes after old guys that were good multiple years prior, but I named you a ton of "20 something year olds" that Dubas acquired, many of whom fit a similar mold to Marchment, Paul, and Coleman.

Tavares and Bunting are both top-six with grit, and technically he also acquired Hyman who became top-six. I'm not really sure how many top six players you're expecting a team that already has 3 superstars in their top six to add.

 

[eddieO]

LOL. We don't need "stability at the GM position" in order to keep Auston Matthews. Stability at the GM position is what will drive him away.

If Auston leaves, he'll go to a new GM who might know how to put pieces around him at the right prices in order for him to win a Cup. Our GM has failed at doing that for his entire tenure.

Dubas will win a single round and we'll have the Run It Back (TM) Squad clamoring for a five year extension.

 

[Sypher04]

Lol, Kypreos is an utter tool. Having him as our GM would be ludicrous

 

[Lightsol]

Lol, Kypreos is an utter tool. Having him as our GM would be ludicrous

It'd be effective if you want a second run of the 2008 Cliff Fletcher debacle...

 

[Gary Nylund]

Our defense is fine but it's not like they're the Stevens era devil's

The best thing Keefe has done in my opinion is being able to paper over our defensive cracks with a solid neutral zone system and forecheck

We're not great in our own zone

My only point was that our D is so much better than it was when Dubas took over, that's all.

LOL. We don't need "stability at the GM position" in order to keep Auston Matthews. Stability at the GM position is what will drive him away.

If Auston leaves, he'll go to a new GM who might know how to put pieces around him at the right prices in order for him to win a Cup. Our GM has failed at doing that for his entire tenure.

Dubas will win a single round and we'll have the Run It Back (TM) Squad clamoring for a five year extension.

Or maybe if Auston can figure out how to play better and he'll have some playoff success in this town. And if he can't do that, maybe we're better off without him. For me a lot depends on his contract demands and if he wants some ridiculous 15 million a year or WE, we're probably better off without him.

We need to stop thinking it would be the end of the world if he left. As of right now, every team that's ever won so much as a single playoff round has done without Auston Matthews.

 

[Sypher04]

Or maybe if Auston can figure out how to play better and he'll have some playoff success in this town. And if he can't do that, maybe we're better off without him.

Let’s not act like Matthews wasn’t arguably the best player in that Tampa series last year though. He led both teams in both goals AND points.

 

[93LEAFS]

None of the people listed in that article would get the job.

To be honest, if Dubas goes, I wouldn't be shocked if Shanahan also goes, and Leafs use that President of Hockey Operations title to poach a sizable name GM from another NHL team (who doesn't currently have that title).

 

[Gary Nylund]

Let’s not act like Matthews wasn’t arguably the best player in that Tampa series last year though. He led both teams in both goals AND points.

He did play well, much better than he played in some other series. Don't get me wrong, he's a great player and I hope he's here for a long time, I'm just sick of hearing about him leaving if Dubas doesn't do a better job of building a winner around him. Matthews deserves his share of blame for our losses too IMO, it's not like he's always played like a superstar in the playoffs and considering his cap hit, I think he could do better.

 

[LeafEgo]

If we lose early again and Dubas is not re signed, it would be totally justified.

So far I think Poile has been the only decent person mentioned who could be a possible upgrade over Dubas. I think Trotz could be good GM if given the chance but he would still be a rookie. Spezza I think will make a great GM but not for another 5-6 yrs I would say.

The traditional fears of a 'rookie GM' in this town don't really apply to Trotz. I don't know if he's GM material (those who should know should know), but he's not new to the big leagues and there arnt concerns about his ability to command respect, lead, and build an appropriate culture for the organization. He won't have a learning curve trying to figure out what it takes to win.

Maybe GM'ing isn't his strong suit but nothing to do with being a 'rookie'. In my humble opinion.