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Toronto Maple Leafs: Who Would Replace Kyle Dubas?

Dekes For Days said:
You said Matthews wasn't inherited by the GM at the time, even though Hunter was in charge of that draft.
By that same logic, Hunter being tasked with the draft side of things in 2015 doesn't make Marner inherited by the GM at the time, especially considering we know of extensive internal discussions.
Dubas was interim GM when Marner was drafted. Dubas did not inherit Marner.
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You're reaching quite poorly for arguments that were never made by me, nor have anything to do with the original issue of you dishonestly trying to credit Dubas for the Marner pick, when we all know that wasn't true and was thoroughly,completely debunked as BS...

"Extensive internal discussions" that "we know of" but nothing about Dubas, and of course there isn't because he wasn't involved in the junior scouting or drafting of players, Hunter was. More dishonesty and deceptive language, with zero citations showing Dubas was collaborating with Hunter's team in any capacity.

Your whole spiel is that "he must have been OK with Marner" because you want that to be true. Literally zero sourcing to suggest that was the case, in fact interestingly enough there's at least one press report I've seen from 2015 that has Dubas suggesting the 4th overall could be traded...
 
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Bomber0104 said:
You're reaching quite poorly for arguments that were never made by me, nor have anything to do with the original issue
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The original issue was always the incorrect claim that Dubas inherited Marner.
As we all know, that is not true. Dubas was interim GM when Marner was drafted. Dubas did not inherit Marner.
You attempted to discredit Dubas entirely, based exclusively on the fact that Hunter was tasked with directing scouting, while ignoring the fact that there were extensive internal discussions within the organization about that franchise-defining pick that interim GM Dubas would have been involved in.
To see what your position would look like when the Dubas factor was removed, I asked how you apply this to Matthews, and you directly contradicted your argument regarding Marner.
Hunter was in charge of the 2015, 2016, and 2017 drafts. Either Hunter's designation makes the drafted players in those years inherited by the GM, or not.
 
Lemontree said:
The 2015, 2016 and 2017 drafts but that all depends on who people say made the picks. Those drafts are referred to as the Hunter drafts but according to some posters on here that Dubas made the Marker pick so I’m not sure how Dubas is seen as a great drafting GM and all of Hunters drafts were terrible. Didn’t hit outside the first round
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I dont think anyone has said Dubas gets credit for the Marner pick. Just that he was an acting GM when the pick was made and that he would've likely been his pick as well. In those same drafts, it's been reported that Dubas wanted Aho over Dermott, Debrincat over Korshkov for a couple examples but Hunter made the picks.

As for Dubas' drafts, I think I've already pointed out to you in the last week or so how his drafts have been better than Hunter's. Every year he's been drafting guys that are risers and doing excellent in their post draft years like Robertson, Knies, Niemela, Tverberg, Voit, Grebenkin for example. Which of Hunter's picks (outside of the 1st round) can you look back on and say went on to have excellent post draft seasons? Dermott and Grundstrom are the only 2 that have played more than 100 games. Woll is just starting to get there now and Scott was doing well before his injuries derailed his career. What did any of the other picks accomplish?

Korshkov
Greenway
Gordeev
Middleton
Desrochers
Bracco
Timashov ( I liked this pick)
Walker
Rasanen
McGregor
Kara
O'Connell
Bobylev
Chebykin
Brooks
Mattinen
Nielsen
Dzierkals
Lindgren
Korostelev

The only ones there I would say had notable post draft seasons on that list were Brooks, Nielsen and Timashov. Bracco was disappointing for the amount of skill he had. Everyone there was pretty mediocre and not many played in the WJC.

Dubas' oldest prospects from the 2018 draft has already produced 6 players that have seen NHL ice. Knies will likely get games this year and in the next 1-2 years, we could likely see Hirvonen, Niemela, Villeneuve, Tverberg and Minten seeing NHL games.

Sandin
Durzi
Kral
Holmberg
Robertson
Abruzzese
Amirov
Hirvonen
Niemela
Villeneuve
Tverberg
Knies
Voit
Minten
Moldenhauer
Grebenkin
Hildeby

These guys are all legit prospects that have been good to great since being drafted and have NHL potential. 8 of those players have played at the WJC. 2 were named best D man. We could possibly see 4 more players at the WJC next year.
 
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mikeyz said:
How can you possibly say that if it wasn't for Covid, we would have won a cup by now?

They haven't even won a f***ing playoff round!! Lol.
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Yeah that would be a strange thing to say. Now calm down, read my post again and try to understand it before responding.

LeafEgo said:
You can't judge a GM before his exam. Blaming the players gets you nowhere. Imagine he explained this school of thought in a performance review?
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Once the playoffs start, the work of the GM is done. But if the players play poorly in losing and you don't think they should be blamed, you're entitled to that opinion.
 
Gary Nylund said:
Once the playoffs start, the work of the GM is done. But if the players play poorly in losing and you don't think they should be blamed, you're entitled to that opinion.
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You can blame the players it just doesn't get you anywhere. You either need to change the players or get more out of the ones you have. GM and Coach bear responsibility for the performance of the team, and for Toronto that's measured by playoff success.

The work of the GM may be done I'm just saying the playoffs is the test to see how well they did (for Toronto).
 
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acrobaticgoalie said:
I dont think anyone has said Dubas gets credit for the Marner pick. Just that he was an acting GM when the pick was made and that he would've likely been his pick as well. In those same drafts, it's been reported that Dubas wanted Aho over Dermott, Debrincat over Korshkov for a couple examples but Hunter made the picks.

As for Dubas' drafts, I think I've already pointed out to you in the last week or so how his drafts have been better than Hunter's. Every year he's been drafting guys that are risers and doing excellent in their post draft years like Robertson, Knies, Niemela, Tverberg, Voit, Grebenkin for example. Which of Hunter's picks (outside of the 1st round) can you look back on and say went on to have excellent post draft seasons? Dermott and Grundstrom are the only 2 that have played more than 100 games. Woll is just starting to get there now and Scott was doing well before his injuries derailed his career. What did any of the other picks accomplish?

Korshkov
Greenway
Gordeev
Middleton
Desrochers
Bracco
Timashov ( I liked this pick)
Walker
Rasanen
McGregor
Kara
O'Connell
Bobylev
Chebykin
Brooks
Mattinen
Nielsen
Dzierkals
Lindgren
Korostelev

The only ones there I would say had notable post draft seasons on that list were Brooks, Nielsen and Timashov. Bracco was disappointing for the amount of skill he had. Everyone there was pretty mediocre and not many played in the WJC.

Dubas' oldest prospects from the 2018 draft has already produced 6 players that have seen NHL ice. Knies will likely get games this year and in the next 1-2 years, we could likely see Hirvonen, Niemela, Villeneuve, Tverberg and Minten seeing NHL games.

Sandin
Durzi
Kral
Holmberg
Robertson
Abruzzese
Amirov
Hirvonen
Niemela
Villeneuve
Tverberg
Knies
Voit
Minten
Moldenhauer
Grebenkin
Hildeby

These guys are all legit prospects that have been good to great since being drafted and have NHL potential. 8 of those players have played at the WJC. 2 were named best D man. We could possibly see 4 more players at the WJC next year.
Click to expand...
Great post. From time to time I see people bitching about Dubas' drafting, and it's just not possible for me to take them seriously.

LeafEgo said:
You can blame the players it just doesn't get you anywhere. You either need to change the players or get more out of the ones you have. GM and Coach bear responsibility for the performance of the team, and for Toronto that's measured by playoff success.

The work of the GM may be done I'm just saying the playoffs is the test to see how well they did (for Toronto).
Click to expand...
That's one way of looking at it. I believe I said earlier that there's nothing wrong with that but there are other ways to look at it as well.
 
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acrobaticgoalie said:
I dont think anyone has said Dubas gets credit for the Marner pick. Just that he was an acting GM when the pick was made and that he would've likely been his pick as well. In those same drafts, it's been reported that Dubas wanted Aho over Dermott, Debrincat over Korshkov for a couple examples but Hunter made the picks.

As for Dubas' drafts, I think I've already pointed out to you in the last week or so how his drafts have been better than Hunter's. Every year he's been drafting guys that are risers and doing excellent in their post draft years like Robertson, Knies, Niemela, Tverberg, Voit, Grebenkin for example. Which of Hunter's picks (outside of the 1st round) can you look back on and say went on to have excellent post draft seasons? Dermott and Grundstrom are the only 2 that have played more than 100 games. Woll is just starting to get there now and Scott was doing well before his injuries derailed his career. What did any of the other picks accomplish?

Korshkov
Greenway
Gordeev
Middleton
Desrochers
Bracco
Timashov ( I liked this pick)
Walker
Rasanen
McGregor
Kara
O'Connell
Bobylev
Chebykin
Brooks
Mattinen
Nielsen
Dzierkals
Lindgren
Korostelev

The only ones there I would say had notable post draft seasons on that list were Brooks, Nielsen and Timashov. Bracco was disappointing for the amount of skill he had. Everyone there was pretty mediocre and not many played in the WJC.

Dubas' oldest prospects from the 2018 draft has already produced 6 players that have seen NHL ice. Knies will likely get games this year and in the next 1-2 years, we could likely see Hirvonen, Niemela, Villeneuve, Tverberg and Minten seeing NHL games.

Sandin
Durzi
Kral
Holmberg
Robertson
Abruzzese
Amirov
Hirvonen
Niemela
Villeneuve
Tverberg
Knies
Voit
Minten
Moldenhauer
Grebenkin
Hildeby

These guys are all legit prospects that have been good to great since being drafted and have NHL potential. 8 of those players have played at the WJC. 2 were named best D man. We could possibly see 4 more players at the WJC next year.
Click to expand...
flag this post and come back to it in 3 years so you can laugh that you actually believe even half the stuff you posted
 
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hotpaws said:
flag this post and come back to it in 3 there's so you can laugh that you actually believe even half the stuff you posted
Click to expand...
I never said all these guys will make it. Only that these guys have all progressed well since being drafted and have NHL potential.

Do you have a rebuttal to show how the players I listed are not better than what Hunter was able to produce?
 
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acrobaticgoalie said:
I never said all these guys will make it. Only that these guys have all progressed well since being drafted and have NHL potential.

Do you have a rebuttal to show how the players I listed are not better than what Hunter was able to produce?
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i could easily draft smallish players who are already productive and then say oh boy what great drafting when they continue to produce at lower levels

the jobs of the scouts is to project who can play at the NHL level not simply look at the stats in jr and base their picks on them

outside of Kneis we don't have anyone who projects out to be a quality player , i'm sure someone may surprise like maybe the late rd Russian kid but overall there's nothing to be pimping Dubas about especially since the only players who have graduated is a 3rd pairing D and another D he traded
 
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Gary Nylund said:
Yeah that would be a strange thing to say. Now calm down, read my post again and try to understand it before responding.


Once the playoffs start, the work of the GM is done. But if the players play poorly in losing and you don't think they should be blamed, you're entitled to that opinion.
Click to expand...
Gary Nylund said:
Well put, I agree completely. I would extend Dubas today without a second thought, best GM we've had in ages. Covid hit at the worst possible time for us, had it happened two years earlier or WE, we'd quite possibly have won the cup by now.
Click to expand...
Yes You did say that. Or at the very least implied it.
 
mikeyz said:
Yes You did say that. Or at the very least implied it.
Click to expand...
I said "quite possibly" we would have won, that's quite different from saying we "would have" won. Point is, the fact that covid hit essentially freezing the cap right after we signed all our big stars hurt our chances.

Had covid hit a couple of years earlier freezing the cap before we sign our guys, our stars get paid less freeing up cap space to improve the team elsewhere. Maybe we win the cup then, maybe we don't, no way to know for sure.
 
acrobaticgoalie said:
I dont think anyone has said Dubas gets credit for the Marner pick. Just that he was an acting GM when the pick was made and that he would've likely been his pick as well. In those same drafts, it's been reported that Dubas wanted Aho over Dermott, Debrincat over Korshkov for a couple examples but Hunter made the picks.

As for Dubas' drafts, I think I've already pointed out to you in the last week or so how his drafts have been better than Hunter's. Every year he's been drafting guys that are risers and doing excellent in their post draft years like Robertson, Knies, Niemela, Tverberg, Voit, Grebenkin for example. Which of Hunter's picks (outside of the 1st round) can you look back on and say went on to have excellent post draft seasons? Dermott and Grundstrom are the only 2 that have played more than 100 games. Woll is just starting to get there now and Scott was doing well before his injuries derailed his career. What did any of the other picks accomplish?

Korshkov
Greenway
Gordeev
Middleton
Desrochers
Bracco
Timashov ( I liked this pick)
Walker
Rasanen
McGregor
Kara
O'Connell
Bobylev
Chebykin
Brooks
Mattinen
Nielsen
Dzierkals
Lindgren
Korostelev

The only ones there I would say had notable post draft seasons on that list were Brooks, Nielsen and Timashov. Bracco was disappointing for the amount of skill he had. Everyone there was pretty mediocre and not many played in the WJC.

Dubas' oldest prospects from the 2018 draft has already produced 6 players that have seen NHL ice. Knies will likely get games this year and in the next 1-2 years, we could likely see Hirvonen, Niemela, Villeneuve, Tverberg and Minten seeing NHL games.

Sandin
Durzi
Kral
Holmberg
Robertson
Abruzzese
Amirov
Hirvonen
Niemela
Villeneuve
Tverberg
Knies
Voit
Minten
Moldenhauer
Grebenkin
Hildeby

These guys are all legit prospects that have been good to great since being drafted and have NHL potential. 8 of those players have played at the WJC. 2 were named best D man. We could possibly see 4 more players at the WJC next year.
Click to expand...
Sandin (2018 - 1st round pick) 22 year old currently bottom pairing Dman (NHL - Leafs)
Durzi (2018 - 2nd round pick) 24 year old currently playing 2nd pairing Dman (NHL - Kings)
Kral (2018 - 5th round pick) 23 year old currently playing in AHL (Leafs)
Holmberg (2018 - 6th round pick) 23 year old who was been up and down (4 line player) (NHL/AHL - Leafs)
Robertson (2019 - 2nd round pick) 21 year old often injured who has played 31 games in NHL (IR - Leafs)
Abruzzese (2019 - 4th round pick) 23 year old currently playing in AHL (Leafs)
Amirov - Not Applicable - has non related sports health that no one could have foreseen.
Hirvonen (2020 - 2nd round pick) 21 year old currently playing in Liga.
Niemela (2020 - 2nd round pick) 20 year old currently playing in Liga.
Villeneuve (2020 - 4th round pick) 20 year old currently playing in AHL (Leafs)
Tverberg (2020 - 7th round pick) 21 year old currently playing in NCAA.
Knies (2021 - 2nd round pick) 20 year old currently playing in NCAA.
Voit (2021 - 5th round pick) 19 year old currently playing in CHL.
Minten (2022 - 2nd round pick) 18 year old currently playing in CHL.
Moldenhauer (2022 - 3rd round pick) 18 year old currently playing in USHL.
Grebenkin (2022 - 5th round pick) 19 year old currently playing in KHL.
Hildeby (2022 - 4th round pick) 21 year old currently playing in SHL.

Currently out of this group there are 2 NHL players (Sandin and Durzi). I think Holmberg has shown enough that he should be on the big club full time playing 4th line. Knies will likely step into a 3rd line role once NCAA season ends.

This group is no different than any other group of prospects that all prospect junkies fall in love with however you need to be realistic with the number of prospects that actually carve out an NHL career and if they are impact players (Top 6 forwards, Top 4 Dman and Starting Goalie).

Can you (using realistic expectations) project which prospects will end up becoming, this is how I see it:

Top 6 forward: Knies (has a chance)

Top 4 Dman: Sandin (has a chance), Niemla (has a chance)

Have an NHL career (does not fit in above tiers): Holmberg, Robertson, Hirvonen
 
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This trade smells like the Foligno trade all over again. Fail.
 
IF the leafs get bounced again in Round 1 I'd be happy to see Spezza take over Shanny or Dubas' role. I think he fits best as president with a solid GM under him but the board may decide to keep Shanny. A coaching change would be necessary too.
 
If you're a fan of any other playoff team in the east, you are absolutely thrilled that Kyle Dubas is GM of the Leafs.

If you're an agent of the big four, you are absolutely thrilled that Kyle Dubas is GM of the Leafs.

If you're a fan of respectful handshakes, you are absolutely thrilled that Kyle Dubas is GM of the Leafs.
 
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