Toronto Maple Leafs: Who Would Replace Kyle Dubas?

[Sypher04]

"Change for the sake of change' is not what is being suggested, nor should we believe that whomever decides on who the next GM will be is thinking that way. If MLSE believes that Dubas' vision for building a championship team is flawed then they should try to bring in someone who has a different view. Of course, preferably someone with a track record of success.

And no change at any level is going to guarantee success but if you keep rewarding failure, i.e. extending Dubas if the Leafs have another disappointing post-season, it could be interpreted in the locker room (the only place that really matters) that success is optional.

At no point have the Leafs rewarded failure. That’s a strange way of spinning things. They have stayed the course, built on their team and placed faith in their best players figuring it out and getting to that next level.

And on the management side, Shanahan has simply not made an emotional, reactionary type move that a fan would make.

There is a limit to how long that can last, and we can see that by Dubas’ lame duck status this season. Whether it’s the right/wrong move is free to debate, but nobody has been rewarded for failure here

Also, people won’t like it, but there is still a conceivable path ahead where the Leafs fail to advance and Kyle Dubas remains GM. It’s going to come down to his own work performance, and what you deem that you can put on him vs the players not playing to their capabilities. A GM can only assemble the team, but it’s ultimately up to them to perform how they have shown capable. GMs get fired all the time due to player underperformance, so he may well go still if that happens, but whether it’s the right call is a matter up for debate

 

[eddieO]

Welcome, and hopefully you can learn something about hockey while you are here!

Thanks! I'm learning a lot from Dubas fans. Apparently, we're one of the "best teams in the world" yet can't win a playoff series. Of course we have a similar farm system than the Blues, who won a Cup a few years ago, but it's okay, because we're a top-5 team. Dubas shouldn't get any blame for throwing away first round picks like they're candy and nothing he does is his fault. He built a great team, he didn't inherit one!

And most importantly, it's just doggone bad luck that we keep having to play tough teams in the playoffs....like Montreal and Columbus.

My Bruins fan friends love Dubas being the GM of the Leafs as much as the people on this thread do. I guess I'll keep learning!

 

[mikeyz]

I’ll stay positive, we make it to the 2nd rd. And dubas gets a big raise, Hey if Dubas doesn’t get extended will he be the only GM in Leaf history who never missed the playoffs?

He will also be the only GM to lose 5 straight 1st rounds in the playoffsl

At no point have the Leafs rewarded failure.

Yes they have. The fact that Dubas is still here is proof of this.

He should have been fired after that 3-1 choke job to the Habs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Thanks! I'm learning a lot from Dubas fans. Apparently, we're one of the "best teams in the world" yet can't win a playoff series. Of course we have a similar farm system than the Blues, who won a Cup a few years ago, but it's okay, because we're a top-5 team. Dubas shouldn't get any blame for throwing away first round picks like they're candy and nothing he does is his fault. He built a great team, he didn't inherit one!

And most importantly, it's just doggone bad luck that we keep having to play tough teams in the playoffs....like Montreal and Columbus.

My Bruins fan friends love Dubas being the GM of the Leafs as much as the people on this thread do. I guess I'll keep learning!

And he doesn't, this is a really dumb narrative.

 

[Lemontree]

And he doesn't, this is a really dumb narrative.

He has overseen 5 drafts from 2018-2022 and has selected in the 1st round twice. One of which was 2020 where he traded the Leafs 1st and re-acquired another 1st rounder. Since GM of the Leafs he has traded the 1st round pick in 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022.

 

[Bomber0104]

And he doesn't, this is a really dumb narrative.

Yeah, he did real well throwing 2 firsts and 2 quality prospects away for 2 broken down old golf-carts in Muzzin and Foligno.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Yeah, he did real well throwing 2 firsts and 2 quality prospects away for 2 broken down old golf-carts in Muzzin and Foligno.

Muzzin wasn't broken down when he was acquired.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Muzzin wasn't broken down when he was acquired.

Neither was Foligno.
Though it's certainly much more weird to dismiss the multiple years of top pairing quality defenseman we got out of Muzzin.
Also a bit weird to call Grundstrom quality.

 

[ToneDog]

He has overseen 5 drafts from 2018-2022 and has selected in the 1st round twice. One of which was 2020 where he traded the Leafs 1st and re-acquired another 1st rounder. Since GM of the Leafs he has traded the 1st round pick in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023.

Updated it for you.

 

[United35]

"Change for the sake of change' is not what is being suggested, nor should we believe that whomever decides on who the next GM will be is thinking that way. If MLSE believes that Dubas' vision for building a championship team is flawed then they should try to bring in someone who has a different view. Of course, preferably someone with a track record of success.

And no change at any level is going to guarantee success but if you keep rewarding failure, i.e. extending Dubas if the Leafs have another disappointing post-season, it could be interpreted in the locker room (the only place that really matters) that success is optional.

Lmao. That’s a lot of assumptions and connecting of the dots. If my boss is a moron should I compromise my career earning potential and follow by being a moron? That’s what you just suggested could happen.

We’re in the top ten in the league and it’s February and we’re asking who could replace the GM. It’s somewhat laughable. You can’t win the cup in January or February. The fact we lost the players we have the past two summers, with no cap relief, and still iced a team that a city can get upset about when we’re bounced after the first round means he’s doing something right.

If we were a tire fire and his changes on the fly didn’t pan out then sure - fire him. And at that point we wouldn’t be making a change for the sake of change. There would be factual evidence that we regressed.

 

[Lemontree]

Lmao. That’s a lot of assumptions and connecting of the dots. If my boss is a moron should I compromise my career earning potential and follow by being a moron? That’s what you just suggested could happen.

We’re in the top ten in the league and it’s February and we’re asking who could replace the GM. It’s somewhat laughable. You can’t win the cup in January or February. The fact we lost the players we have the past two summers, with no cap relief, and still iced a team that a city can get upset about when we’re bounced after the first round means he’s doing something right.

If we were a tire fire and his changes on the fly didn’t pan out then sure - fire him. And at that point we wouldn’t be making a change for the sake of change. There would be factual evidence that we regressed.

He is doing a good job if people are mad after continually losing in the first round? If he was doing something right that we wouldn't be bounced in the 1st round year after year.

You and others pretend that Dubas built this team from scratch,.....he inherited significant young top end talent on ELCs and has done nothing to advance the team past where it existed when he took over. The Washington 1st round exit was the only one that most people thought that was a building block on what we hoped was a journey on reaching the promise land. Now we have had to shift the definition of promise land from Stanley Cup championship to reaching the 2nd round....solely based on Dubas inability to identify and acquire the correct supporting cast around his superstar young talent that has handed on day 1 of being the GM.

 

[Bomber0104]

Lmao. That’s a lot of assumptions and connecting of the dots. If my boss is a moron should I compromise my career earning potential and follow by being a moron? That’s what you just suggested could happen.

We’re in the top ten in the league and it’s February and we’re asking who could replace the GM. It’s somewhat laughable. You can’t win the cup in January or February. The fact we lost the players we have the past two summers, with no cap relief, and still iced a team that a city can get upset about when we’re bounced after the first round means he’s doing something right.

If we were a tire fire and his changes on the fly didn’t pan out then sure - fire him. And at that point we wouldn’t be making a change for the sake of change. There would be factual evidence that we regressed.

After drafting Matthews 1st overall in 2016, Marner 5th overall in 2015, and Nylander 8th overall in 2014, you actually believe 6 consecutive first round losses was the best this team was capable of?

Be honest with yourself.

You'd be livid if you knew that was this core's fate.

 

[leafsfan5]

Yeah, he did real well throwing 2 firsts and 2 quality prospects away for 2 broken down old golf-carts in Muzzin and Foligno.

Muzzin was a great acquisition and a vital reason our defense went from a tirefire to being competent

If we could find another version of him I'd be all over it

 

[Bomber0104]

Muzzin was a great acquisition and a vital reason our defense went from a tirefire to being competent

If we could find another version of him I'd be all over it

I respect Muzzin a lot but ultimately the trade didn't accomplish anything of note.

It's all about the results.

LA got a 1st, Durzi, and Grundstrom. Both of those players are active, productive NHL'ers.

Muzzin is gone and now we need to trade for another defenceman who does Muzzin things.

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

I respect Muzzin a lot but ultimately the trade didn't accomplish anything of note.

It's all about the results.

LA got a 1st, Durzi, and Grundstrom. Both of those players are active, productive NHL'ers.

Muzzin is gone and now we need to trade for another defenceman who does Muzzin things.

Muzzin was exactly what we needed. That trade of all trades isn’t one to beat Dubas over the head with.

We have a super skilled ‘core’ that underperform more often than not in the play offs.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You and others pretend that Dubas built this team from scratch,.....he inherited significant young top end talent on ELCs and has done nothing to advance the team past where it existed when he took over.

It's hilarious watching people act like ending up with one of the best teams in the league was just a given. He inherited 3 talented NHL players (Matthews, Nylander, Rielly), and only one of them was on an ELC, and only for one more year. We were already the highest spending team in the league in 2017-2018, our point total that year had been unsustainably inflated setting expectations sky-high, and Dubas was left with significant immediately departing depth, a depleted and unreplenished prospect pool, multiple cap anchors, and a strained relationship between management/coaching and the team's best players, that would soon need re-signing.

Despite all that, an unexpected multi-year flat cap at the worst time due to a global pandemic, and his 15th overall drafted prospect getting brain cancer, Dubas has been able to turn this team from what was realistically a sustainable bubble team set to get worse, to one of the best teams in the league every single year. He completely remade our defense, and turned it from one of the worst in the league to one of the best. He re-signed all of our top players, and added an additional elite player for no expended assets. He found ways to overcome the obstacles and give us quality forward depth, with quality free agent signings, overseas signings, etc. Goalies are always a rocky road, especially for teams that didn't draft one of the few top tier goalies a decade ago, that have their inherited goalie fall off a cliff, but we've ended up with the best starter and tandem we've had in this era. He's replenished and greatly improved our prospect pool while still buffing the team with significant deadline improvements over the years.

It's amazing that some people want to throw that away because they didn't get their playoff cookie as soon as they wanted, for reasons they don't seem to care to actually understand.

Now we have had to shift the definition of promise land from Stanley Cup championship to reaching the 2nd round...

Who's doing that? The goal is and always has been the cup, and Dubas has built a team capable of winning it. And it's really only upwards from here, as the flat cap winds down, and our second wave of prospects comes due.

 

[therealkoho]

Perennial fave, Mr Scott Bowman ta-da!

 

[Lemontree]

It's hilarious watching people act like ending up with one of the best teams in the league was just a given. He inherited 3 talented NHL players (Matthews, Nylander, Rielly), and only one of them was on an ELC, and only for one more year. We were already the highest spending team in the league in 2017-2018, our point total that year had been unsustainably inflated setting expectations sky-high, and Dubas was left with significant immediately departing depth, a depleted and unreplenished prospect pool, multiple cap anchors, and a strained relationship between management/coaching and the team's best players, that would soon need re-signing.

Despite all that, an unexpected multi-year flat cap at the worst time due to a global pandemic, and his 15th overall drafted prospect getting brain cancer, Dubas has been able to turn this team from what was realistically a sustainable bubble team set to get worse, to one of the best teams in the league every single year. He completely remade our defense, and turned it from one of the worst in the league to one of the best. He re-signed all of our top players, and added an additional elite player for no expended assets. He found ways to overcome the obstacles and give us quality forward depth, with quality free agent signings, overseas signings, etc. Goalies are always a rocky road, especially for teams that didn't draft one of the few top tier goalies a decade ago, that have their inherited goalie fall off a cliff, but we've ended up with the best starter and tandem we've had in this era. He's replenished and greatly improved our prospect pool while still buffing the team with significant deadline improvements over the years.

It's amazing that some people want to throw that away because they didn't get their playoff cookie as soon as they wanted, for reasons they don't seem to care to actually understand.

Who's doing that? The goal is and always has been the cup, and Dubas has built a team capable of winning it. And it's really only upwards from here, as the flat cap winds down, and our second wave of prospects comes due.

1) What? You don't count Marner, Kadri, JVR, Gardiner as talented NHL players? Also the roster contained young players such as: Connor Brown, Zach Hyman, Kasperi Kapanen, Andres Johnson.

2) Every single GM in the league dealt with the same unforeseen issue....this is an excuse!

3) The team was not set to get worse, unless you expected regression or no growth from the big 3 which were coming off their rookie seasons.

4) This is false. The prospect pool today is no better than it was in 2018 and at that point they had actually graduated some prospects (Brown, Dermott, Johnson, Levio) who were playing on the big club.

5) Yes, the issue is with myself and a large group of Leaf fans haven't been "patient" enough with this group, It's not as if they have failed to get past the first round with the core group since 2017.

6) How many realistic Leaf fans have been discussing a cup this season....seems to be mostly based on can they finally get through the 1st round (ie: beat Tampa Bay).

 

[Dekes For Days]

1) What? You don't count Marner, Kadri, JVR, Gardiner as talented NHL players?

Obviously every GM inherits a team. I thought we were discussing the players currently on the team. Only 3 of our current players were inherited.
For the record, Dubas drafted Marner, JVR was a departing UFA, and Gardiner became a shell of his former self due to injury half a season into Dubas' tenure.

2) Every single GM in the league dealt with the same unforeseen issue...

The flat cap did not impact teams equally.
A competitive team locking in a significant part of their cap through the freeze time period just prior to the unexpected freeze was the worst possible situation.

3) The team was not set to get worse, unless you expected regression or no growth from the big 3 which were coming off their rookie seasons.

The "big 3" were not coming off their rookie seasons. They were 2-2.5 years in.
We were a maxed out cap team with a point total inflated by unsustainable factors, with a depleted prospect pool and multiple cap anchors, that was about to have all of their ELCs - including multiple superstar ELCs - end. Multiple depth pieces already had one foot out the door, others were set to quickly deteriorate due to age/injury, and our starting goalie was about to implode. We were set to hit an unexpected multi-year flat cap right after all of our best players came due for contract.

We were absolutely looking at steps backward without incredibly effective management. Expecting the difference between what Matthews/Marner/Nylander were and would be to somehow balance out all of that is ridiculous.

4) This is false. The prospect pool today is no better than it was in 2018 and at that point they had actually graduated some prospects (Brown, Dermott, Johnson, Levio) who were playing on the big club.

The prospect pool is DRASTICALLY better than it was when Dubas took over in 2018. Not even close. Despite the fact that his entire tenure has been as a competitive team, and our highest drafted prospect got brain cancer. If a player already has a spot on the big club, they are not really part of the prospect pool. We had basically dumped our entire rebuild prospect pool into the NHL to get to where we were, and then Lou did nothing to replenish it.

5) Yes, the issue is with myself and a large group of Leaf fans haven't been "patient" enough with this group

Yes, exactly.

6) How many realistic Leaf fans have been discussing a cup this season....seems to be mostly based on can they finally get through the 1st round (ie: beat Tampa Bay).

The Leaf fans discussing the cup this season are the realistic ones. That's the goal, and Dubas has built a team capable of it. That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to win. It's a difficult trophy to win, that requires a lot going right. But that doesn't mean avoiding making that obtainable goal your objective.

Some individuals are aiming low, because they extrapolate incorrect meaning out of our past playoff outcomes.
Funny enough, our path realistically gets easier and easier the further we advance.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I respect Muzzin a lot but ultimately the trade didn't accomplish anything of note.

It's all about the results.

LA got a 1st, Durzi, and Grundstrom. Both of those players are active, productive NHL'ers.

Muzzin is gone and now we need to trade for another defenceman who does Muzzin things.

True. Muzzin also had significant back problems at the time of the trade, which is an issue that often shortens a player’s shelf life. Dubas knew all this, and here we are, stuck with a broken down Muzzin years later.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I respect Muzzin a lot but ultimately the trade didn't accomplish anything of note.

It's all about the results.

LA got a 1st, Durzi, and Grundstrom. Both of those players are active, productive NHL'ers.

Muzzin is gone and now we need to trade for another defenceman who does Muzzin things.

If that's your reasoning then just say every move Dubas has ever made was dumb, no point in analyzing anything any further.

Me, I thought the Muzzin trade was exactly what we needed and overall, Dubas has done a good job. Look at our roster when he took over and compare to today - it's much better, not even close IMO mostly because he completely revamped our D (and in a good way). One thing he can't do though is go out there on the ice and play for them so if the players fail and you want to let them off the hook and blame Dubas, you go right ahead.

I look at the roster today and see a top contender that can compete with anyone. Dubas has done his job, and he's done it well. Now it's up to the players.

Win!

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

D

1) What? You don't count Marner, Kadri, JVR, Gardiner as talented NHL players? Also the roster contained young players such as: Connor Brown, Zach Hyman, Kasperi Kapanen, Andres Johnson.

2) Every single GM in the league dealt with the same unforeseen issue....this is an excuse!

3) The team was not set to get worse, unless you expected regression or no growth from the big 3 which were coming off their rookie seasons.

4) This is false. The prospect pool today is no better than it was in 2018 and at that point they had actually graduated some prospects (Brown, Dermott, Johnson, Levio) who were playing on the big club.

5) Yes, the issue is with myself and a large group of Leaf fans haven't been "patient" enough with this group, It's not as if they have failed to get past the first round with the core group since 2017.

6) How many realistic Leaf fans have been discussing a cup this season....seems to be mostly based on can they finally get through the 1st round (ie: beat Tampa Bay).

Dubas was the one that traded for Hyman and Kapanen

 

[Da Cool Rula]

If that's your reasoning then just say every move Dubas has ever made was dumb, no point in analyzing anything any further.

Me, I thought the Muzzin trade was exactly what we needed and overall, Dubas has done a good job. Look at our roster when he took over and compare to today - it's much better, not even close IMO mostly because he completely revamped our D (and in a good way). One thing he can't do though is go out there on the ice and play for them so if the players fail and you want to let them off the hook and blame Dubas, you go right ahead.

I look at the roster today and see a top contender that can compete with anyone. Dubas has done his job, and he's done it well. Now it's up to the players.

Win!

Totally agree.

 

[TorMapleJays]

This last deal shows signs of adopting a new mindset. @Dekes For Days. Another big deal and I might just sign off on an extension.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I look at the roster today and see a top contender that can compete with anyone. Dubas has done his job, and he's done it well. Now it's up to the players.

While I would agree on paper this team should be able to make some noise in the playoffs. I wouldn't say he's done his job well though if they bow out again. All about the results. Not much faith in Keefe however and think he's a detriment actually

I respect Muzzin a lot but ultimately the trade didn't accomplish anything of note.

It's all about the results.

LA got a 1st, Durzi, and Grundstrom. Both of those players are active, productive NHL'ers.

Muzzin is gone and now we need to trade for another defenceman who does Muzzin things.

I think it was predictable he'd break down. Should have moved on from him. Kerfoot too I'd say.